For the longest time i've been in the "Bind is for living beings, Move is for unliving objects only"-camp, with droids being objects. After the latest Clone Wars episodes i'm considering lifting my restricted stance on Move. I like the simplicity of Bind, in that it never requires a combat check. With Move and its control upgrade things get more complicated. According to FaD p283 you use an opposed check for resisting a force power only when it's not already a combat check. There are no combined combat/opposed checks and the rules also seem to discourage requiring 2 checks for a single action (first an opposed check, then a combat check, for example).

So i'm looking at a few examples to get a feel for the situation (i'm using just Minions and Nemeses here, Rivals can be on either side as per FaD p283):

1.) Hurling an object at a Minion
Pretty clear, this is a combat check with difficulty and damage based on the Sil of the thrown object.

2.) Hurling a Minion against a wall/into the ground
Narratively the same as 1), i.e. doing damage to a single target, so this would be a combat check with difficulty and damage based on the Sil of the thrown Minion.

3.) Gently moving a Minion over a ledge (or slowly moving a 16 ton weight over its head)
The first hairy one. You could say it requires no check and not even the control upgrade. But narratively it is the same as 1) and 2), doing damage to a single target, so maybe it should require a combat check and also the control upgrade.

4.) Hurling a Minion into another Minion
Might just be a combat check with difficulty based on the Sil of the thrown Minion, but my instinct tells me this should be an Autofire situation and also require the magnitude upgrade for 2 targets. So it would be the same if you pick up 2 targets and smash their heads together or throw one at the other.

5.) Hurling an object at a Nemesis
Pretty clear again, i would say. This is a combat check with difficulty based on the Sil of the thrown object. As it is a combat check, Adversary would apply.

6.) Hurling a Nemesis against a wall/into the ground
Should the Nemesis get a chance to resist the power as it is used directly against him? Similar to 1) and 2) i would say this is the same as 5), requiring just a combat check with difficulty based on the Sil of the thrown Nemesis. Adversary applies.

7.) Gently moving a Nemesis over a ledge (or slowly moving a Star Destroyer over its head or the infamous "stratospheric throw")
This should at least be an opposed check. But similar to 3), you could argue that it is narratively the same as 5) and 6), doing damage to a single target, so maybe it should be a combat check instead and also require the control upgrade. If it would mean an insta-death for the Nemesis this would be the first example where i would seriously consider first an opposed check, then a combat check.

8.) Hurling a Minion into a Nemesis
Might just be a combat check with difficulty based in the Sil of the thrown Minion, but similar to 4), i would use the Autofire rules for this one (as usual, using the most difficult target) and also require the magnitude upgrade for 2 targets. Adversary applies.

9.) Hurling a Nemesis into a Minion
As with 6) you could argue that the Nemesis should get to oppose, but it's just narratively too similar to 8), so i would handle it exactly the same, just with difficulty based on the Sil of the thrown Nemesis. Adversary applies.

I'm not even getting into Minion groups, Force duels or any other factors here.

Looking forward to hearing your interpretations of those examples.

First off, clarification to make sure we're on the same page: To throw an object at a target (or just throw a target), it takes a Discipline check (with a force power check as part of the pool) with a difficulty equal to the silhouette of the object. To succeed, you must both get enough force pips to move the object and succeed on the Discipline check.

You only need to make a combat check when you are throwing target A at target B. If you are just "gently moving" no combat check is necessary, you just need enough range and strength upgrades to move a big enough target far enough. However, no damage is done unless dropped. If you were to be gently moving an object above a target with the intention to squish said target, you would have to make the Discipline check as the target would be trying to avoid it.

3. Gently moving a minion over a ledge: No Discipline check since you aren't trying to hit a target.
4. Hurling a minion into a minion: Regular combat check. You spend force pips to pick up and throw one, and you succeed on the check to hit the target.
6. If you are directly manipulating a nemesis, they should be allowed to resist the power with Athletics or Discipline.
7. This would be an opposed check, but only the one check. No Discipline check would be needed if it wasn't a nemesis.
8. The combat check is the difficulty of the minion's silhouette, but upgraded for the Nemesis's Adversary and any applicable talents or Defense.*
9. The difficulty would be the nemesis's opposition, if you succeed on that you hit the target.

*Defense and Adversary isn't mentioned in the description for the hurl upgrade, but I think it is a safe bet that Adversary applies. Whether or not Defense does is a more sketchy issue, especially as flowing robes ain't gonna help much against getting a Star Destroyer dropped on your head. I'd probably rule that Adversary applies, but Defense doesn't.

51 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Defense and Adversary isn't mentioned in the description for the hurl upgrade, but I think it is a safe bet that Adversary applies. Whether or not Defense does is a more sketchy issue, especially as flowing robes ain't gonna help much against getting a Star Destroyer dropped on your head. I'd probably rule that Adversary applies, but Defense doesn't.

Hurl attacks are ranged attacks using the discipline as the ranged attack skill and all defensive things like adversary and ranged defense and cover etc apply. Base silhouette difficulty upgraded by adversary dodge etc.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

First off, clarification to make sure we're on the same page: To throw an object at a target (or just throw a target), it takes a Discipline check (with a force power check as part of the pool) with a difficulty equal to the silhouette of the object. To succeed, you must both get enough force pips to move the object and succeed on the Discipline check.

You only need to make a combat check when you are throwing target A at target B. If you are just "gently moving" no combat check is necessary, you just need enough range and strength upgrades to move a big enough target far enough. However, no damage is done unless dropped. If you were to be gently moving an object above a target with the intention to squish said target, you would have to make the Discipline check as the target would be trying to avoid it.

Thanks for clarifying that. I was only talking about the combat and resistance checks. You have to get the desired effect with your Force check first.

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6. If you are directly manipulating a nemesis, they should be allowed to resist the power with Athletics or Discipline.

Would you use just an opposed check or also a combat check on top? With just the opposed check it might be too easy to affect the Nemesis because Adversary wouldn't apply.

After another read of the Move power, the phrase "slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury" caught my eye. And with the control upgrade it is "capable of inflicting damage". What do you think of the interpretation that you need the control upgrade (and maybe also a combat check) for any narration of a Move power action that includes damaging someone/something, even when just gently moving and dropping them? You might have noticed by now, i'm trying to reign in the Move power somewhat.

1 minute ago, spacht said:

Would you use just an opposed check or also a combat check on top? With just the opposed check it might be too easy to affect the Nemesis because Adversary wouldn't apply.

After another read of the Move power, the phrase "slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury" caught my eye. And with the control upgrade it is "capable of inflicting damage". What do you think of the interpretation that you need the control upgrade (and maybe also a combat check) for any narration of a Move power action that includes damaging someone/something, even when just gently moving and dropping them? You might have noticed by now, i'm trying to reign in the Move power somewhat.

Just the opposed check in lieu of the combat check.

You can move someone slowly and deliberately off a cliff, and then drop them. Gravity does the rest. No attack necessary.

As for reigning in the Move power, there is not really a good way to do that mechanically, and I have seen many proposals that attempt to do it. The best way, in my opinion, is to request that your players be judicious in the use of the power, possibly also requesting specifics such as "don't drop from more than short range, and don't drop things bigger than sil 1" this is fairly restrictive, but I feel that the Move power should be more about relocating objects than squishing things (yes, I remember Dooku. I'm only talking about game balance).

1 hour ago, spacht said:

Thanks for clarifying that. I was only talking about the combat and resistance checks. You have to get the desired effect with your Force check first.

Would you use just an opposed check or also a combat check on top? With just the opposed check it might be too easy to affect the Nemesis because Adversary wouldn't apply.

After another read of the Move power, the phrase "slow and deliberate, not fast enough to inflict injury" caught my eye. And with the control upgrade it is "capable of inflicting damage". What do you think of the interpretation that you need the control upgrade (and maybe also a combat check) for any narration of a Move power action that includes damaging someone/something, even when just gently moving and dropping them? You might have noticed by now, i'm trying to reign in the Move power somewhat.

You do opposed. but things like cover and adversary do apply.

1 check with the higher difficulty of the opponent's discipline and the combat check

16 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

1 check with the higher difficulty of the opponent's discipline and the combat check

I really like this solution for those "it's a combat check, but it should somehow also be opposed"-type of situations. Stacking Adversary and other combat modifiers on top of an opposed check might be a little too much and strays too far from RAW for my taste.

On 5/8/2020 at 5:20 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Just the opposed check in lieu of the combat check.

You can move someone slowly and deliberately off a cliff, and then drop them. Gravity does the rest. No attack necessary.

As for reigning in the Move power, there is not really a good way to do that mechanically, and I have seen many proposals that attempt to do it. The best way, in my opinion, is to request that your players be judicious in the use of the power, possibly also requesting specifics such as "don't drop from more than short range, and don't drop things bigger than sil 1" this is fairly restrictive, but I feel that the Move power should be more about relocating objects than squishing things (yes, I remember Dooku. I'm only talking about game balance).