I was pondering the other day and was curious about who was the most prominent character of each family and how well they represent it. Here's what I came up with -

• IMPERIAL
• Hantei - Sotorii, Crown Prince(?) and depressingly typical
• Miya - Satoshi, Daimyo but quite atypical
• Otomo - Sorai, really old Daimyo not massively competent
• Seppun - Ishikawa, Captain of the Imperial Guard,
• CRAB
• Hida - Kisada, Daimyo and Champion, the archetypal Hida
• Hiruma - Kogoe, a low level but pretty generic scout
• Kaiu - Shuichi, a pretty typical engineer in charge of things
• Kuni - Yori, Daimyo and original Crab shugenja
• Yasuki - Taka, Daimyo and about what you'd expect
• CRANE
• Asahina - Takako, Daimyo's daughter and priest
• Daidoji - Uji, Daimyo and Iron Warrior
• Doji - Hotaru, Daimyo and Champion but more martial than typical
• Kakita - Yoshi, Daimyo but in some ways more of a Doji than Hotaru
• DRAGON
• Agasha - Sumiko, the Ruby Champion and nothing like the idea of Agasha
• Kitsuki - Yaruma, Imperial Ambassador and quite investigatory
• Mirumoto - Hitomi, a two-sword wielding officer, as expected
• Togashi - Mitsu, declared heir and enigmatic tattooed monk
• LION
• Akodo - Toturi, Daimyo and Champion, quite Akodo-y
• Ikoma - Ujiaki, Imperial Ambassador and dodgy Ikoma (the family comes in two varieties)
• Kitsu - Motso, really not like a Medium or Spiritcaller
• Matsu - Tsuko, Daimyo and Champion, more Lion than Toturi
• PHOENIX
• Asako - Maezawa, Inquisitor and quite good
• Isawa - Tadaka , Master of Earth and so Isawa it hurts
• Kaito - Kosori, Daimyo and literally the archetype of the family
• Shiba - Tsukune, Champion and Daimyo, although a bit Lion-trained
• SCORPION
• Bayushi - Kachiko, Imperial Advisor and becoming better
• Shosuro - Hyobu, Governor of Ryoko Owari but a bit more Bayushi than Shosuro
• Soshi - Aoi, a minor character we've hardly seen, but quite the Soshi
• Yogo - Asami, an ex-peasant body double and a better Shosuro than Yogo
• UNICORN
• Ide - Tadaji, Imperial Ambassador and courtier, not had much chance to show off Ide-ing
• Iuchi - Shahai, a young but authentic Meishodo Master
• Moto - Chagatai, what more do you want in a Moto
• Shinjo - Altansarnai, Champion and Daimyo, seems about right
• Utaku - Kamoko, the Battle Maiden par excellence
• MANTIS - Yoritomo, the Mantis to end all Mantises

Honestly, my big takeaway is that the relative paucity of characters for given families (and clans!) means only one thing:

The friggin' Crane, Lion, and Scorpion are still miserable story hogs!

I mean... looking over your selection?

Imperial-

Ishikawa, Satoshi, and both Princes seem to be the go-tos here. Which is in keeping with how, as characters without clans, they're kind of supporting pieces in the story.

Crab-

When was the last time we actually saw Kisada? Of the entire lineup, only Yori seems to have done much of late... by being a sinister presence in Phoenix-centered stories.The Crab really need a few more outings that are about them.

Crane- (Kyuden Doji delenda est!)

Takako is a thing, isn't she? A thing we haven't seen in quite a while, because Hotaru, Yoshi, and Kuwanan are all merrily oozing all over the plot.

Dragon-

What honestly kills me is that your summation here? Feels like almost as much content as the Dragon have gotten. Mitsu bucks the trend slightly, and hitching himself to Daisetsu and Shahi means he'll probably continue to pop up, but...

Lion-

If Motso's the Kitsu we've seen the most of... ouch. Ujiaki (the louse) seems to be as much an offscreen presence as anything, with Tsuko and Toturi doing their thing.

Phoenix-

Started strong, and we've gotten enough to keep us invested in Tsukune, Kosori, and Tadaka. Maezawa's cool and all, but he really only has one appearance as a central character so far. Luckily, it's a good one. But I want some more Tsukune, especially given the changes she's gone through, and the fact that we still have no idea how the Phoenix are interacting witht he whole "death of the emperor/missing heir/Scorpion regency" plotline.

Scorpion-

I would actually argue that family names be damned, Kachiko is the iconic Shosuro, with Shoju as the iconic Bayushi. The Soshi and Yogo's distinctive schtick hasn't really come up yet. Bet Junzo eventually shoulders Asami aside for the Yogo spot, though. The Soshi... well. Soshi gonna Soshi.

Unicorn-

Novella aside, we've spent more time with Shahai than with any other Unicorn character, thanks to her whole bit with the princes- but it leaves the meishodo issue as window dressing to what seems to be her actual plot. She also seems to be a bit weird in the eyes of her peers, and not sure she's actually that typical an Iuchi. The Moto (novella aside) barely seem to exist, the Ide are kind of... there (but where were they for the centuries the Unicorn have been back? WHO CAN SAY?!), while the Shinjo have (perhaps appropriately) dominated most Unicorn-centered fiction, with Kamoko snaking the odd bit here and there to keep the Utaku's hand in.

5 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

• Seppun - Ishikawa, Captain of the Imperial Guard,

The Seppun just can't catch a break, can they ? I would like to think that Ishikawa is not representative of the Seppun. It is too bad the bodyguard who stood between Sotorii and Daisetsu during the duel remained unnamed because then I could nominate him as the most Seppun-ish character in the story.

50 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

The Seppun just can't catch a break, can they ? I would like to think that Ishikawa is not representative of the Seppun. It is too bad the bodyguard who stood between Sotorii and Daisetsu during the duel remained unnamed because then I could nominate him as the most Seppun-ish character in the story.

I actually did consider naming him, but decided it was better to leave him just as a Seppun guard dutifully doing his job, because that's what Seppun guards do.

I am curious, though--in what way would you "like to think that Ishikawa is not representative of the Seppun"? Don't get me wrong, I'm not set on defending his portrayal or anything like that (since I guess I'm the one who's given him the single biggest slug of characterization); I'm just interested in knowing what you mean.

Ishikawa, from the brief conversation with Toturi and showing a history of dealing with the criminal element of Otosan Uchi stretches the ‘dutiful bodyguard’ archetype. Not in an unreasonable way, he’s just more practical than one might expect from the Imperial families outside of, say, roving Miya cartographers.

You expect that sort of shady business to be handled by the Tortoise, then kicked up to the Seppun, keeping that one step of removal so as not to tarnish the reflected shine of the Imperial families.

21 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

I am curious, though--in what way would you "like to think that Ishikawa is not representative of the Seppun"?

When it all comes down, his most defining contribution to the story is creeping on another man's young pregnant wife. This is pretty low, even by ongoing Seppun standards.

10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

When it all comes down, his most defining contribution to the story is creeping on another man's young pregnant wife. This is pretty low, even by ongoing Seppun standards.

That's somewhat of a deliberately insulting way of putting it. I feel it would be more accurate to say "Still has feelings for a childhood sweetheart/crush".

5 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

That's somewhat of a deliberately insulting way of putting it.

I did not mean to insult anyone, but I had to point out that the setup is really-really awkward.

35 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Ishikawa, from the brief conversation with Toturi and showing a history of dealing with the criminal element of Otosan Uchi stretches the ‘dutiful bodyguard’ archetype. Not in an unreasonable way, he’s just more practical than one might expect from the Imperial families outside of, say, roving Miya cartographers.

You expect that sort of shady business to be handled by the Tortoise, then kicked up to the Seppun, keeping that one step of removal so as not to tarnish the reflected shine of the Imperial families.

Fair enough. I'd actually considered having Ishikawa refer to the Tortoise, because they do that kind of shady stuff, but that would have precluded having him and Toturi interact with Tamanegi. I suppose we could have had Tamanegi just BE a Tortoise, but for various reasons, we went the way we did. Besides, I kind of liked the idea of Ishikawa being this dedicated, but pragmatic man, who wants to keep a finger clearly on the pulse of what's going on in OU. Does it make him less than honorable? Yeah, it does, I guess, and that could have ramifications down the road...

27 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

When it all comes down, his most defining contribution to the story is creeping on another man's young pregnant wife. This is pretty low, even by ongoing Seppun standards.

Okay, thanks. Not saying I agree or disagree, because I wasn't actually looking for a debate; I just wondered where you coming from.

2 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

Okay, thanks. Not saying I agree or disagree, because I wasn't actually looking for a debate; I just wondered where you coming from.

Haha, yeah, I'm sure Ishikawa's story is going somewhere and the emphasis on his kind-of-unhealthy affection towards Kaede is not without purpose, I'm just saying that a guy like him shouldn't be representative of the Seppun. Just to make myself a bit clearer .

5 hours ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Ishikawa, from the brief conversation with Toturi and showing a history of dealing with the criminal element of Otosan Uchi stretches the ‘dutiful bodyguard’ archetype. Not in an unreasonable way, he’s just more practical than one might expect from the Imperial families outside of, say, roving Miya cartographers.

You expect that sort of shady business to be handled by the Tortoise, then kicked up to the Seppun, keeping that one step of removal so as not to tarnish the reflected shine of the Imperial families.

Whereas I totally buy into the idea that the Seppun get their hands dirty on the local level. If you want to be a good bodyguard, waiting for some third party to warn you about stuff in your own backyard seems like laziness.

2 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Whereas I totally buy into the idea that the Seppun get their hands dirty on the local level. If you want to be a good bodyguard, waiting for some third party to warn you about stuff in your own backyard seems like laziness.

Pretty much the Seppun are the Secret Service, you better believe they make use of every avenue of information they can get access to. While Ishikawa may not be the guy who always meets with the unsavory characters, he is likely fully aware of who they are, and in light of the need to minimize the exposure of Toturi to other people who may recognize him it makes sense that he would be the one dealing with things in this story.

Honestly, I find Ishikawa a pretty good Seppun. His intense crush on Kaede is indeed a bit of a personal foible that purists would click their tongues over, but he hasn't let it materially interfere with his duty. If it makes his relations with Toturi a bit awkward, well... uh, been there, had to do that.

5 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Honestly, I find Ishikawa a pretty good Seppun. His intense crush on Kaede is indeed a bit of a personal foible that purists would click their tongues over, but he hasn't let it materially interfere with his duty.

You mean like the one time when he was stalking her while the Emperor was being sword'd to death a few blocks down in the road? Or his (ultimately) pointless enmity with Toturi?

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

You mean like the one time when he was stalking her while the Emperor was being sword'd to death a few blocks down in the road?

As opposed to literally every other Seppun who should have been on the job?

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

Or his (ultimately) pointless enmity with Toturi?

Has his enmity prevented him from assisting Torutri in his investigation? Oh, no, no it hasn't, in fact, he's pretty much carried Toturi through a scenario he would have royally botched if left to his own devices.

5 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

As opposed to literally every other Seppun who should have been on the job?

Ishikawa was THE Seppun who should have been on the job.

5 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Has his enmity prevented him from assisting Toturi in his investigation?

Yes? That's, like, half the point of the "investigation". He carries around Toturi because he has to, and is constantly berating him when poor man has better things to worry about. And it is actually catching on Toturi. Regarding the "How The World Ought to Work" story, I firmly believe that Toturi would be much better off without Ishikawa.

Granted, Toturi would not be on that part of town if not because of Ishikawa, so he would not have intervened between the Crane and Scorpion bushi and probably killing them or being killed or maimed, but then, where would his investigation begin?

Anda again I ask, how infallible is the Hantei line? Do people in general know about Hantei XVI? If they did, Kachiko could have pretty much called for the Seppun Guards, put Sotorii under house arrest until they found out what happened, at this point Sotorii would have probably killed himself and then Daisetsu would be Emperor, Daisetsu, whose only friends are Chahai and before her, Dairiu. So it’s not like the Scorpion wouldn’t have clout over the new Emperor, it just wouldn’t be Kachiko, but her son. But that’s her flaw.

5 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

As opposed to literally every other Seppun who should have been on the job?

23 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Ishikawa was THE Seppun who should have been on the job.

Your right he should have known that the Emperor would be murdered in his private sanctum by his own son after telling him about the edict that he would be passed over for his younger brother (you know the one that he wasn't even aware existed yet), He is only human and is not able to be at t eh emperor's side 24 hours a day, that is why there is a whole Seppun Hidden guard whose job is to be available as a whole for the defense of the Emperor, and Ishikawa as the head of that group is not actually going to be spending the majority of his time in the Emperor's presence but coordinating the efforts of all of them to seamlessly ensure protection at all times.

18 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

He is only human and is not able to be at t eh emperor's side 24 hours a day

I would say this is (should be) the "Seppun's Burden", kind of. Yes, he is supposed to be at the Emperor's side 24/7/365, and it should be killing him in a not-quite-rhetorical manner. Even if the Emperor is apparently completely safe. Because the Emperor is never completely safe. That's the entire point of the Seppun, they literally exist just to be within arm's reach when something happens and take the hits for the Hantei (even from another Hantei). This is why I like that unnamed guy from the duel: he was the perfect representation of this.

28 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Ishikawa as the head of that group is not actually going to be spending the majority of his time in the Emperor's presence but coordinating the efforts of all of them to seamlessly ensure protection at all times.

He didn't do that one either, so there is that. I think Toturi even pins this against him in one of the stories.

It is the Seppun’s burden. They failed to protect the Emperor but that in no way is Ishikawa’s personal fault. If any Seppun should be blamed are the members of the Hidden Guard who never had the foresight to create wards that would alert if a Hantei attacked another Hantei. Had any alarms like this rung, then the Seppun would had found Sotorii over his father’s dead body holding the Hantei ancestral sword.

3 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

It is the Seppun’s burden. They failed to protect the Emperor but that in no way is Ishikawa’s personal fault. If any Seppun should be blamed are the members of the Hidden Guard who never had the foresight to create wards that would alert if a Hantei attacked another Hantei. Had any alarms like this rung, then the Seppun would had found Sotorii over his father’s dead body holding the Hantei ancestral sword.

Well in the Seppun's defense the wards weren't working because we suspect Shahai had coaxed the kami that empowered them into her talismans earlier that day thus robbing them of their power.

Now we can legitimately question how they had not noticed that fact, but if we assume that the wards are checked on a regular basis and they had been checked earlier in the day and Shahai did her damage after their regular inspection (not unreasonable as in the story featuring Shahai where we learn she realizes she had likely disabled the wards she has just finished crafting her talismans for the demonstration she will be giving the Seppun on Meishodo the next day) then it may have been missed.

But we know that ishikawa has acknowledged that the wards were no longer working in the aftermath of that day (although it may be because the Kami fled the palace after the murder as the entire palace may now be cursed as well.

35 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

It is the Seppun’s burden. They failed to protect the Emperor but that in no way is Ishikawa’s personal fault.

Only if Ishikawa had been at the Emperor's side or just waiting outside of the door... We even have a Seppun doing this right: Sanosuke, upon being dismissed by Daisetsu, immediately circled back to watch over the boy from behind a fake wall.

The Seppun's Burden shouldn't be failure. Failure should be death. Te burden should be the need to constantly succeed .

To be fair to poor Ishikawa, he--and Toturi who, as Emerald Champion, is the Emperor's de factor champion and yojimbo--are keenly aware of their failure. Had it not been for the attempt on Toturi's life, which points to a wider conspiracy, I think there's a good chance one or both of them would have committed seppuku by now. If you recall, at the end of Black and White, Toturi's thoughts were clearly headed in that direction ("I must travel dark roads you can't" he said to Kaede, or words to that effect.) However, I approached this from the perspective that neither of these men would be likely to perform the three cuts while they believed that the Hantei line may still be in danger--again, who tried to kill Toturi on the very same night the Emperor died, and why?

None of which is to say that one or both of them won't offer their seppuku, or undertake some other atonement, if and when they uncover what appears to them to be a plot against the Throne. In fact, it's an interesting bit of thinking to wonder if, had the player who chose to have Toturi investigate the attempt on his life chosen differently, if Ishikawa might NOT have offered his seppuku to Shoju already. I don't KNOW that that would be the case, because I don't know if the story team ever developed any through-lines for the other choices. But it's interesting to speculate.

So Ishikawa did fail, knows he failed, and realizes he is going to have to atone for that failure in some fashion eventually. Right now, though, he has a conspiracy to uncover.

As an aside, Ishikawa doesn't hang around the Emperor all day. There's no way he'd be able to maintain good situational awareness, or see to the effective running of the Imperial guard, if he's bound by duty to shadow the Hantei all the time. It's simply not his job. For that matter, the guy has to sleep, eat, go the bathroom, etc. Perhaps the Seppun collectively should have indeed done a better job of watching the Emperor (to the extent they could, anyway; we have no idea how feasible it would be, given the layout of that part of the palace, exactly what orders the Emperor had given them, etc.). And none of that absolves Ishikawa of ultimate responsibility. When I was a battalion commander in the army, I was only generally aware of what was going on among my subordinates--but the buck stopped with me, if anything went wrong. The same applies to Ishikawa, here.

55 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

As an aside, Ishikawa doesn't hang around the Emperor all day. There's no way he'd be able to maintain good situational awareness, or see to the effective running of the Imperial guard, if he's bound by duty to shadow the Hantei all the time. It's simply not his job. For that matter, the guy has to sleep, eat, go the bathroom, etc.

You know, I would have loved to see this. Ishikawa as the Emperor's second shadow, standing vigil 24/7... but then how does he eat or sleep? How does he organize the palace guards? A complex sign language? USWS ? Is he just pushes himself to the very limits of his body, then simply crashes for an hour or so? Isn't that kinda very unhealthy? Is his outward appearance just a masquerade, and is he completely wasted physically and mentally in the inside? Isn't that kinda counter-productive for his job?