And I guess it’s exactly because it’s counterproductive to his job that he doesn’t do that?

11 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

You know, I would have loved to see this. Ishikawa as the Emperor's second shadow, standing vigil 24/7... but then how does he eat or sleep? How does he organize the palace guards? A complex sign language? USWS ? Is he just pushes himself to the very limits of his body, then simply crashes for an hour or so? Isn't that kinda very unhealthy? Is his outward appearance just a masquerade, and is he completely wasted physically and mentally in the inside? Isn't that kinda counter-productive for his job?

We already have Emma-O doing this why do we need another example.

23 minutes ago, Diogo Salazar said:

And I guess it’s exactly because it’s counterproductive to his job that he doesn’t do that?

It is only counterproductive at that level of dedication.

41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

We already have Emma-O doing this why do we need another example.

Because Emma-O is a Fortune and Ishikawa is "just" a man.

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Yes? That's, like, half the point of the "investigation". He carries around Toturi because he has to, and is constantly berating him when poor man has better things to worry about. And it is actually catching on Toturi. Regarding the "How The World Ought to Work" story, I firmly believe that Toturi would be much better off without Ishikawa.

Except that the story's text and events make it expressly clear that you're... well. Completely wrong about this.

And that, in fact, his enmity to Toturi is thawing slightly as he works with the guy. Like he's a character who's going to grow, or something.

28 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Except that the story's text and events make it expressly clear that you're... well. Completely wrong about this.

How so? Ishikawa literally offers Toturi to sit out an important part of the investigation because he thinks he is a liability. Then, after Toturi gathers the strength to not make a scene, Ishikawa doubles down on him and openly calls him a liability. Toturi himself muses on how his "relationship" with Ishikawa is a fragile one, then gets pissed off so much by the Seppun he uses Kaede to (successfully) strike back at him. The poison between these two is almost tangible.

21 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

How so? Ishikawa literally offers Toturi to sit out an important part of the investigation because he thinks he is a liability. Then, after Toturi gathers the strength to not make a scene, Ishikawa doubles down on him and openly calls him a liability. Toturi himself muses on how his "relationship" with Ishikawa is a fragile one, then gets pissed off so much by the Seppun he uses Kaede to (successfully) strike back at him. The poison between these two is almost tangible.

And yet they continue to work together because the job is more important than the venom. Toturi learns some of Ishikawa's resources (and gets a window on the shady Miya Daimyo in the process) and actually makes some progress, not in spite of Ishikawa's involvement, but because of it.

29 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

How so? Ishikawa literally offers Toturi to sit out an important part of the investigation because he thinks he is a liability. Then, after Toturi gathers the strength to not make a scene, Ishikawa doubles down on him and openly calls him a liability. Toturi himself muses on how his "relationship" with Ishikawa is a fragile one, then gets pissed off so much by the Seppun he uses Kaede to (successfully) strike back at him. The poison between these two is almost tangible.

Which scene was it that Toturi didn’t make? The one with the two drunk bushi? Like I said, you could make the argument that Toturi doesn’t need Ishikawa’s help. Then again, without Ishikawa’s help what would Toturi be doing? Stopping random citizens of Otosan Uchi with a drawing of a masked man asking “have you seen this shinobi?”

10 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And yet they continue to work together because the job is more important than the venom.

For me it appears that Ishikawa and Toturi keep working together because Kaede asked them very nicely to do so.

9 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Then again, without Ishikawa’s help what would Toturi be doing?

If Ishikawa wasn't... well... Ishikawa , then Toturi wouldn't have the whole conspiracy business at his hand in the first place (for one reason or another). So he would be dealing with Tsuko, most likely.

37 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

For me it appears that Ishikawa and Toturi keep working together because Kaede asked them very nicely to do so.

And they do it. Meaning they do the job. Meaning that Ishikawa's envy of Toturi's marriage to Kaede is not his most defining character trait.

37 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

If Ishikawa wasn't... well... Ishikawa , then Toturi wouldn't have the whole conspiracy business at his hand in the first place (for one reason or another).

...

You realize that unless someone wholeheartedly embraces your rather one-sided view of Ishikawa, that this is going to seem like an incredible reach, right?

The "whole conspiracy business" was the product of Kachiko's reaction to Sotorii's murder of his father. That you seem to think Ishikawa in particular (what, there are no other Seppun who were on the clock?) should have been on hand for a private chat between a father and his son has literally nothing to do with that.

37 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

So he would be dealing with Tsuko, most likely.

Since his priorities were set by a player vote? Not bloody likely.

6 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And they do it.

Because Kaede. Everything concerning Ishikawa's character leads to Kaede. He failed to protect the Emperor because Kaede. He works together with Toturi because Kaede. Him working together with Toturi is a bumpy ride because Kaede.

6 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

The "whole conspiracy business" was the product of Kachiko's reaction to Sotorii's murder of his father.

The conspiracy was basically the result of Ishikawa not being around the Emperor in that very moment, because he was with Kaede. If he had been around then he would have been among the characters who stumbled into the scene, meaning that Kachiko wouldn't have had that much say, meaning that the whole assassination plot would have gone straight out of the window. Toturi trying to bust the conspiracy wouldn't have been an option because his first interaction with it would have been Shoju who would have explained everything to him.

I would be more forgiving to Ishikawa if he had a different reason to miss out on the scene. Like he was organizing the Seppun or overseeing the Hidden Guard. But nope. He was busy chasing Kaede, a married woman who is pregnant with her beloved husband's child. In my opinion , that's just too low.

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Because Kaede. Everything concerning Ishikawa's character leads to Kaede. He failed to protect the Emperor because Kaede. He works together with Toturi because Kaede. Him working together with Toturi is a bumpy ride because Kaede.

And yet they're getting the job done.

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The conspiracy was basically the result of Ishikawa not being around the Emperor in that very moment, because he was with Kaede.

Given the total absence of any Seppun (or anyone else who was supposed to be there) at the time, what makes you think the Emperor wouldn't have told him to take a powder while he had a very difficult private conversation with his son?

You seem to think that the Emperor was supposed to be awash in bodyguards without examining why he wasn't. He doesn't have just Ishikawa on call to look out for him- the entire Seppun family's job is to watch over the Emperor. If none of them were present, it's because he told them not to be.

6 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I would be more forgiving to Ishikawa if he had a different reason to miss out on the scene.

Then you should start, because again, the absence of literally all Seppun indicates that the Emperor told them to be somewhere else. They probably didn't like it, but considering that only Shoju, Toturi, and the Emperor himself had any inkling of what he was meeting Sotorii to tell him, it is utterly laughable that you think Ishikawa should have been there. If it hadn't been Kaede, it would have been "go make sure the duty guards at the gate have their armor polished" or something.

18 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

You seem to think that the Emperor was supposed to be awash in bodyguards without examining why he wasn't. He doesn't have just Ishikawa on call to look out for him- the entire Seppun family's job is to watch over the Emperor. If none of them were present, it's because he told them not to be.

As I pointed it out before with an actual example, the Emperor not wanting the Seppun around is not an excuse for the Seppun to be not around. Or, if all fails, and the Seppun is absolutely forced to be not around the Emperor, then using this extraordinary and thus potentially very risky situation for hitting on a married woman is definitely uncalled for.

23 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And yet they're getting the job done.

I guess we can thank Kaede for that here.

7 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

As I pointed it out before with an actual example, the Emperor not wanting the Seppun around is not an excuse for the Seppun to be not around.

Except that his word is law. If he says "take a powder," they have to take a powder.

Especially when he's in the heart of a warded palace that has been secure for centuries with nobody known to have any particular motive to harm him.

7 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Or, if all fails, and the Seppun is absolutely forced to be not around the Emperor, then using this extraordinary and thus potentially very risky situation for hitting on a married woman is definitely uncalled for.

Ishikawa and every other Seppun who should have been on duty, then. I notice that you don't castigate them, despite the fact that whatever any of them happened to be doing, they weren't on the scene before the Scorpion.

No one is saying they didn't fail. No one is saying that Ishikawa is a flawless character whose decisions were all correct. But only you appear to think he's some kind of quasi-villainous creeper.

10 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Ish ikawa and every other Seppun who should have been on duty, then. I notice that you don't castigate them

It was literally my opening sentence. I think the Seppun in general is aiming pretty low with some exceptions.

10 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

But only you appear to think he's some kind of quasi-villainous creeper.

I don't think he is quasi-villainous but he is surely a creeper and thus unfit to represent the Seppun. He is not simply a flawed character, he is a character defined by a flaw that makes him petty and (no offense intended) cliché. Not like it is necessarily a problem, and in this case it is most likely intended considering the greater narrative, but let's not pretend that this guy is worthy to represent the (supposedly) finest bodyguards in Rokugan.

Man, quick to condemn much? There is a separation between what someone thinks/feels and what they do. You're condemning Ishikawa as unworthy to be head of the guard not because of anything he has done, but because he feels something for Kaede. Not even anything he did out of those feelings...just the feelings themselves.
That's....different.

5th Edition is a whole game system about ninjo vs. giri. Feelings vs Duty. Every single character in the storyline is going to have some sort of conflict between what they feel or want vs. what they have to do. That's the point.

15 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

It was literally my opening sentence. I think the Seppun in general is aiming pretty low with some exceptions.

Counterpoint: Have you noticed anyone in the Imperial families doing a better job than Ishikawa in particular or the Seppun in general? Any Otmo, Miya, or Seppun besides him who has done better?

15 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I don't think he is quasi-villainous but he is surely a creeper and thus unfit to represent the Seppun. He is not simply a flawed character, he is a character defined by a flaw that makes him petty and (no offense intended) cliché.

...

Except that he's not defined by his flaw. He is defined perhaps by his love for Kaede, true- and true, she's married to someone else. But he is also defined by trying to do the right thing, even when he absolutely hates it. And by not indulging in his feelings for her in a way that causes her trouble.

Case in point, working with the guy who's married to the woman he loves. You quibble about why he's doing it all you like- but he's doing it. Not only is he doing it, he's not even taking chances to let Toturi have an "unfortunate accident, there was nothing I could do." Possibly because he's not simply "creeping on" Kaede, but actually cares about her happiness.

15 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Not like it is necessarily a problem, and in this case it is most likely intended considering the greater narrative, but let's not pretend that this guy is worthy to represent the (supposedly) finest bodyguards in Rokugan.

<seethes in Shiba>

And who in the story do you see as a "worthy" representative of their family's virtues?

Even clear-cut heroic "this is your Clan's shining star, gentle reader" types have pronounced flaws- sometimes potentially crippling ones.

Tsukune may have spent the Phoenix novella finding her confidence, but let us not forget that in almost every appearance to date, she has been out of her depth- including the novella, wherein her rising to deal with the situation took the entire course of the story.

Kosori is, well... lonely. Her affection for her Unicorn contact (which then goes all wrong when the Council uses the incident he helped to resolve to bar Unicorn passage to the Shrine of the Ki-Rin) represents a difficulty she has with her own duty, which we're hopefully not past yet.

Toturi the overthinker trusts heis own clan to do the right thing, even as they make move after move to get rid of him- kicking him upstairs to be Emerald Champion, not squashing Tsuko's power-grab... through it all, he tries to buy time to think, letting matters get away from him.

Hotaru is a deeply compromised but heroic champion for my least favorite clan in the game, confronted by issues that are not her fault, but which we cannot pretend she isn't guided by her own hangups on.

Yojiro is pulled in multiple directions by his duty and loyalty.

And those characters are clearly the "good guys," people without much question about where they're headed.

Our iconic Isawa is Tadaka. In the old lore he died a hero, but only after doing some bad things, and in the new lore... he's definitely walking a familiar dark road.

Our iconic Kuni is Yori. All signs indicate that he's not exactly covering the family name with glory.

We haven't gotten one Kakita yet who embodied the family's virtues without also wallowing in its vices.

Your fixation on Ishikawa is, well... leading me to speculate in ways that are unhelpful.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

We haven't gotten one Kakita yet who embodied the family's virtues without also wallowing in its vices.

I would say Toshimoko represents quite well his family, warts and all.

11 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

I would say Toshimoko represents quite well his family, warts and all.

I quite agree but the Daimyo, and the person we have seen more of, is Yoshi - who doesn't.

To make this a bit less serious again. Suppose we miraculously got an L5R computer game, not unlike Dynasty/Samurai Warriors, which characters do you think would make good characters?

14 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Counterpoint: Have you noticed anyone in the Imperial families doing a better job than Ishikawa in particular or the Seppun in general?

I even mentioned the guy: the unnamed Seppun bodyguard who jumped between Sotorii and Daisetsu at the conclusion of the duel. That was some Top Seppun scene overall, it had everything I would expect from the Seppun. As Toturi himself pointed out, Ishikawa is more like a Bayushi, and I wouldn't really mind him representing the Bayushi or the Kakita.

14 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Possibly because he's not simply "creeping on" Kaede, but actually cares about her happiness.

If that was the case then he would be absolutely blissful to have Toturi with her. The guy is basically the most harmless husband ever to grace Rokugan, he is quiet, thinking, and has this odd monk-ish demeanor. This is a straight-out Jackpot from the foggin' Lion Clan of all places. And as far as I know, when Kaede told Ishikawa that she was happy with Toturi, his response was 'bleh' instead of being happy that she was happy. Further, Ishikawa did have second thoughts about Toturi's miraculous survival.

Quote

Your fixation on Ishikawa is, well... leading me to speculate in ways that are unhelpful.

To be acutely honest here, I do think that Ishikawa is among the worst characters (as per his personality, rather than the writing) in the entire story. I'm also kinda shocked that this is not so obvious to others and people even defend him. Like, wow .

By the way, I don't think that Ishikawa has the spine to throw Toturi under the bus. If he had that much in him, then he wouldn't just show up around Kaede randomly and pretend that nothing unusual is happening.

And I think the other families have it much better, because the various flaws in their leaders are either less... broke or their flaws actually carry some hidden strengths. OR even if they have some super-serious flaw then it actually fits into the family theme.

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

To be acutely honest here, I do think that Ishikawa is among the worst characters (as per his personality, rather than the writing) in the entire story. I'm also kinda shocked that this is not so obvious to others and people even defend him. Like, wow .

Or you know when you are speaking against the crowd and they keep pointing out the flaws in your argument maybe its time to re-evaluate your own position instead of just doubling down on I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

Maybe it's a terminology issue here. When I hear the words "creeping on" it makes me think of the sort of thing that would get people charged with sexual harassment. Since I don't think we've seen him doing anything as egregious as that I find using the term distasteful and a rather harsh way of putting it. But since you continue to use the term, it makes the rest of your argument more shaky, as people want to defend him from being compared to that manager who won't stop flirting with and making suggestive comments to his secretary, despite being asked to.

Ishikawa isn't really a good example of a Seppun. Arguably anyone who's reached an officer rank has probably had to lose 100% focus on guarding, because they have other responsibilities and duties. That nameless Palace Guard is likely the best example but entirely because of that, we won't see them again because they're not interesting. But it's really hard to find more Seppun, since we don't even now the name of the Daimyo and senior Astrologer of the family.

Now, in my opinion, it's mostly the shugenja families who are struggling - the Agasha and Kitsu are both represented by bushi and the Yogo by an actress for goodness sake! Asahina whatsername was in a couple of stories, then never mentioned again.

59 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Or you know when you are speaking against the crowd

I'm fairly sure I'm arguing against the same 3-4 people for the 6th time, to be honest. My shock is partially stemming from @Shiba Gunichi of all people defending Ishikawa after our 'are-the-Isawa-arrogant-or-not' argument.

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Maybe it's a terminology issue here. When I hear the words "creeping on" it makes me think of the sort of thing that would get people charged with sexual harassment.

Well, Ishikawa catching up to Kaede in Falling Stars did have a strange selection of words and an even stranger situation regarding Ishikawa just stumbling into Kaede in a random corridor. But maybe 'infatuated' is a better word?

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

That nameless Palace Guard is likely the best example but entirely because of that, we won't see them again because they're not interesting.

For me, the nameless Seppun is already more interesting than Ishikawa. That guy meant business, and I can appreciative that a lot.

16 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, Ishikawa catching up to Kaede in Falling Stars did have a strange selection of words and an even stranger situation regarding Ishikawa just stumbling into Kaede in a random corridor. But maybe 'infatuated' is a better word?

For me, the nameless Seppun is already more interesting than Ishikawa. That guy meant business, and I can appreciative that a lot.

Yes, absolutely! I think that's a very accurate description of his feelings for Kaede.

That guy did, but what will he be doing now? Guarding the palace, where it's back to having nothing exciting happen again. What's he going to do? Watch Shoju, be asked questions by Chiari

4 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Yes, absolutely! I think that's a very accurate description of his feelings for Kaede.

I dunno because I think it does not really telegraph his passive-aggressive stance on the matter.

6 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

That guy did, but what will he be doing now?

I will laugh my butt off if it turns out that the guy was the traitor from Falling Stars .

Ishikawa is no Hida Tsuneo, that's for sure! I think that Toturi and Ishikawa are both honorable men who take their jobs seriously and that is why they feel they have failed. And they have, but by our own standards they can't be expected to fulfill their duties while constantly being by the emperor's side. So the failure trickles down (or up) to the whole system.