Yeah, saying that Toshimoko attempted murder against Hotaru is silly. You could argue that sparring drunk is idiotic and I totally agree but if indeed Toshimoko killed her, it would have been an accident. He never intended to kill her, he intended to bring a reaction from her and show that if he wanted to, he could definitely kill her. I mean, by modern society standards that’s really dangerous but I can totally see certain samurai teaching lessons to others like this. Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion, my opinion is that the only way Hotaru and Kachiko get BOTH alive out of this is by them becoming ronin and fleeing to a really far away place and even then, that’s iffy.

As others have said, her not telling Shoju about what happened puts her in the conspiracy.

You're only accessory to a conspiracy after the fact if you help cover up the murder by actually taking some sort of action that covers up the murder that conceals it from another. Like, for example, Sumiko destroying the evidence for Satsume's murder to make it look like natural causes, and then reporting it as natural causes to her boss. You're not required, I don't believe, to report every crime you find out about.

Shoju himself knows who literally, actually murdered the Emperor, agreed with hiding the evidence, and hasn't charged the murderer.

2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

I just wanted to pull this out and give it a +1 because there's a widespread tendency to say "you're letting your feelings control you!" when those feelings are soft/positive/feminine-associated ones, but to somehow classify hard/negative/masculine-associated things like anger as "not feelings," and therefore actions taken on that basis are totally rational and well-considered. Not a universal tendency, certainly, but enough of a pattern that it's good to call out the fact that Kuwanan is being emotional in his own way.

****, one of the biggest things about #KakitaYoshiisaFool is that he accuses everyone else of being over-emotional while clearly being driven on an emotional level in his own right

2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

I just wanted to pull this out and give it a +1 because there's a widespread tendency to say "you're letting your feelings control you!" when those feelings are soft/positive/feminine-associated ones, but to somehow classify hard/negative/masculine-associated things like anger as "not feelings," and therefore actions taken on that basis are totally rational and well-considered. Not a universal tendency, certainly, but enough of a pattern that it's good to call out the fact that Kuwanan is being emotional in his own way.

That was the part I was trying to highlight without actually saying it out loud, yes.

2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

I just wanted to pull this out and give it a +1 because there's a widespread tendency to say "you're letting your feelings control you!" when those feelings are soft/positive/feminine-associated ones, but to somehow classify hard/negative/masculine-associated things like anger as "not feelings," and therefore actions taken on that basis are totally rational and well-considered. Not a universal tendency, certainly, but enough of a pattern that it's good to call out the fact that Kuwanan is being emotional in his own way.

Accidental double post, please remove.

I mean, I’m pretty sure there’s a trope called poor communication kills, that’s pretty much how every drama (and rom com and teenage movies) happen. Shoju couldn’t produce that Sotorii actually killed his father and he was put in charge until Daisetsu became a grown man because lots of other clans would call that a coup. He should have, though, put Kachiko in the Grove and just keep her double and say that she would retire from the title of Imperial Advisor. The fact that he didn’t still baffles me. I can see why Agasha Sumiko would put a lid on Satsume’s death while she didn’t know who ordered the murder. But keeping that buried is still a mistake.

To paraphrase a wise man, one looks at how the world works and how it ought to work and makes him wonder.

The world will never be how it ought to be. First because humans are fundamentally flawed, imperfect beings who will always make mistakes and get things wrong, and second because perfection os like the horizon: the more you advance, the further you see, and the further your horizon - or your conception of what ought to be - moves with you,

A wise leader learns that while we should strive for what ought to be, we must work with what is to get there. In an ideal world, Kachiko would be punished for her crimes. In a less ideal world, the impact of doing so may do more harm than good in terms of striving for what ought to be. Specifically, it weaken the legitimate regent, and strenghten the murderer of the Hantei. Which is the net effect of Kachiko' actions in the first place (in terms of the bigger picture), so focusing on punishing Kachiko would only make the impact of her crimes worse. That sounds like a short sighted view more interested in punishment than progress.

One thing that has not been clear to me is the infallibility of the Hantei, I think at one point, Toturi mentions the fate of Hantei XVI and how he was killed by his own son, the heir, who then committed seppuku for having done regicide. Toturi mentions something about how Hantei XVI had lost the Mandate from Heaven or something, so while extremely rare. It’s not unusual. We know why Kachiko did it (power) we know why the Miya daimyo did it (Kolat) and we know why Shoju did it (because revealing the truth after all that happened would sound like a Scorpion Coup, specially with Toturi missing). Hotaru is joining the conspiracy out of love.

5 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

I want to repeat since you keep glossing over it Kachiko has confessed to MURDERING THE EMERALD CHAMPION. Even if Hotaru has reason to believe Toturi survived (which lets be honest she probably shouldn't) just the fact that Kachiko has acted in open rebellion of Imperial authority is enough to condemn her, and Hotaru going along with it and by burning her confession and not bringing the information she is now aware of to Shoju is what nets her a place in the conspiracy (which even in modern times would be the case as aiding someone to cover up a murder after the fact makes you an accessory to the crime and potentially subject to the same punishment as the murderer)

Well, technically Kachiko didn't rebel against Imperial authority since as Imperial Advisor she's just as much an instrument of that authority as Toturi is. Plus, since at the time the Edict hadn't been announced Sotorii hadn't been disinherited and thus it could be argued that she was taking actions to protect the interests of the future Emperor.

I'll also suggest that we avoid using the term 'murder' as that implies a degree of criminality that is... debatable in the current circumstances. After all we don't say Hotaru murdered Arasou. And political violence is not all that uncommon in Rokugan. I mean what is the Lion invasion of Crane (and Unicorn) territory if not the use of large scale violence to further a political end?

Finally, under a modern legal system Kachiko would be innocent until proven guilty and since there's been no trial she can't have been found guilty of something. And since Kachiko and Aramoro have a right to not self incriminate and Hotatu's a hearsay witness in the absence of any physical evidence (which I'm dubious about finding) it's unlikely this particular case would amount to anything.

1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

Well, technically Kachiko didn't rebel against Imperial authority since as Imperial Advisor she's just as much an instrument of that authority as Toturi is. Plus, since at the time the Edict hadn't been announced Sotorii hadn't been disinherited and thus it could be argued that she was taking actions to protect the interests of the future Emperor.

This is key. All the cover-up stuff? That was Kachiko working for the good of the Empire . Yes, it also benefited the Scorpion, and yes, she was glad of that -- but she wasn't saying "mwah hah hah, finally my chance has come, and screw everybody else!" I 100% think she made good decisions in that moment , because she thought she was making those decisions to protect the new Emperor, his dynasty, and his realm. Some people have framed it in terms of her trying to manipulate Sotorii, but in a scenario where he's going to be Emperor, having leverage over him so he doesn't a) kill himself, b) kill you, or c) wail his guilt for all of Rokugan to hear is a very good idea.

. . . but then, of course, she found out she'd done all of that to protect a regicide who was not going to be the new Emperor. Keeping the murder under wraps was still a good idea at that point, but the part where she failed to pivot from Old Plan to New Improved Regency Plan and instead tried to have Toturi whacked, that was not so great. In the heat of an unprecedented moment, she made a distinctly bad call. And tried to play it off with Shoju, but failed -- at which point, no, she didn't tell him about the other part, because all that would do is gain her an eternity of horrifying torment. Which might still be in her future, but at least if she stalls she might get the chance to commit suicide before he can nail her to a tree? (I've also said before that I think Shoju is wrong to threaten Kachiko with that, because I believe something like the Traitors' Grove should be reserved for those who willfully betray the Scorpion, not those who screw up. And at no point did Kachiko believe what she was doing was against the best interests of her clan -- not up until that confrontation with Shoju, at which point it was too late to take it back.)

Anyway, it's not surprising to me that after having some time to back off and consider the situation, she recognizes her errors. It's much easier to see things when you're not in the middle of them, having to make snap decisions.

53 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

[...snip for space...]

(I've also said before that I think Shoju is wrong to threaten Kachiko with that, because I believe something like the Traitors' Grove should be reserved for those who willfully betray the Scorpion, not those who screw up. And at no point did Kachiko believe what she was doing was against the best interests of her clan -- not up until that confrontation with Shoju, at which point it was too late to take it back.)

Anyway, it's not surprising to me that after having some time to back off and consider the situation, she recognizes her errors. It's much easier to see things when you're not in the middle of them, having to make snap decisions.

I do not disagree with that in isolation, but if we go way back to the conversation they had in The World a Stage , it takes on a different complexion. Back then Shoju basically warned Kachiko that she was endangering the clan with her personal ambition, and she should act more carefully. From his point of view, she has deliberately acted against the agreed way forward that the family daimyo had all agreed. Making it a warning is his acknowledgement that she was in a difficult situation with few right answers.

59 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I do not disagree with that in isolation, but if we go way back to the conversation they had in The World a Stage , it takes on a different complexion. Back then Shoju basically warned Kachiko that she was endangering the clan with her personal ambition, and she should act more carefully. From his point of view, she has deliberately acted against the agreed way forward that the family daimyo had all agreed. Making it a warning is his acknowledgement that she was in a difficult situation with few right answers.

Yes -- but Kachiko's thoughts in the story with Sotorii show that she was delighted to find that her personal ambition lined up with what should be done : "It was rare that one's duty and one's aspirations overlapped so perfectly." She didn't make a decision to privilege the latter over the former (though Shoju may well think she did). Sure, she should act more carefully, which in most situations would mean taking some time to think and probably consult with her Clan Champion . . . but she was in a situation that called for swift action. I don't see anything in there where she decided "screw my clan, ima do what's good for me ." And my personal feeling -- which is not necessarily that of Shoju or the Scorpion Clan in general! -- is that only that kind of decision should merit the Traitors' Grove.

19 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Yes -- but Kachiko's thoughts in the story with Sotorii show that she was delighted to find that her personal ambition lined up with what should be done : "It was rare that one's duty and one's aspirations overlapped so perfectly." She didn't make a decision to privilege the latter over the former (though Shoju may well think she did). Sure, she should act more carefully, which in most situations would mean taking some time to think and probably consult with her Clan Champion . . . but she was in a situation that called for swift action. I don't see anything in there where she decided "screw my clan, ima do what's good for me ." And my personal feeling -- which is not necessarily that of Shoju or the Scorpion Clan in general! -- is that only that kind of decision should merit the Traitors' Grove.

I don't think Kachiko deserves it, but I can understand why Shoju would think that she was close enough to stepping over the line that she needed a scare. What if's are a hard thing to quantify, but I suspect that she would be less remorseful of the whole mess if he hadn't cracked down on her then.

As a side note, it also allowed the introduction of some lore that wouldn't necessarily be familiar to new readers in a way to demonstrate that the Scorpion really are about loyalty, despite their reputation.

8 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

I'll also suggest that we avoid using the term 'murder' as that implies a degree of criminality that is... debatable in the current circumstances. After all we don't say Hotaru murdered Arasou. And political violence is not all that uncommon in Rokugan. I mean what is the Lion invasion of Crane (and Unicorn) territory if not the use of large scale violence to further a political end?

Finally, under a modern legal system Kachiko would be innocent until proven guilty and since there's been no trial she can't have been found guilty of something. And since Kachiko and Aramoro have a right to not self incriminate and Hotatu's a hearsay witness in the absence of any physical evidence (which I'm dubious about finding) it's unlikely this particular case would amount to anything.

Yeah no that doesn't hold water. Arasou was killed in combat while assaulting a fortified position that Hotaru was defending. Toturi was reading in his study when Kachiko sent Aramoro and 3 goons to attack and kill him. Appropriate political violence is provoking a reaction to force an opponent into a no win situation and usually force a duel or for your opponent to back down from a claim, not stab them from behind while they are reading at their desk.

Under a modern legal system Kachiko's voluntarily written confession is very much relevant evidence that the court would be able to consider. Also there is plenty of physical evidence as Ishikawa found one of Aramoro's poison darts lodged in Toturi's desk and there was no time to clean up the mess that was made of his office during the skirmish (so signs of a struggle and lots of blood on the scene) before Aramoro and his one surviving shinobi fled. Now in the end Toturi did survive so it would only be attempted murder, but attempted murder is still a murder charge, and in Kachiko's case as the one who ordered it would be likely to get a conspiracy to commit murder which can carry as heavy a charge as murder even if the deed didn't follow through. And Hotaru gets the accessory after the fact since she willfully destroyed evidence (the voluntarily written confession of Kachiko) thus is actively helping her cover up for her crime. The right to not self incriminate just means that Kachiko couldn't be compelled to testify in her defense at trial, but doesn't negate her own confession if made willfully outside of a court setting and Hotaru's actions in concealing that evidence would be very relevant.

18 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Yeah no that doesn't hold water. Arasou was killed in combat while assaulting a fortified position that Hotaru was defending. Toturi was reading in his study when Kachiko sent Aramoro and 3 goons to attack and kill him. Appropriate political violence is provoking a reaction to force an opponent into a no win situation and usually force a duel or for your opponent to back down from a claim, not stab them from behind while they are reading at their desk.

If a Harrier had snuck into the Lion camp and slit Arasou's throat in his sleep it wouldn't have been any less of a legitimate means of killing him.

23 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Under a modern legal system Kachiko's voluntarily written confession is very much relevant evidence that the court would be able to consider. Also there is plenty of physical evidence as Ishikawa found one of Aramoro's poison darts lodged in Toturi's desk and there was no time to clean up the mess that was made of his office during the skirmish (so signs of a struggle and lots of blood on the scene) before Aramoro and his one surviving shinobi fled. Now in the end Toturi did survive so it would only be attempted murder, but attempted murder is still a murder charge, and in Kachiko's case as the one who ordered it would be likely to get a conspiracy to commit murder which can carry as heavy a charge as murder even if the deed didn't follow through. And Hotaru gets the accessory after the fact since she willfully destroyed evidence (the voluntarily written confession of Kachiko) thus is actively helping her cover up for her crime. The right to not self incriminate just means that Kachiko couldn't be compelled to testify in her defense at trial, but doesn't negate her own confession if made willfully outside of a court setting and Hotaru's actions in concealing that evidence would be very relevant.

I'm not a lawyer but after briefly skimming Wikipedia's article on hearsay my understanding is that Kachiko's confession would also qualify since it wasn't made under oath, in a court setting, or cross examined. Plus it could be argued that the confession was obtained illegally since Hotaru really shouldn't be in Toshi Ranbo at all.

And while there's probably some evidence, any if it being of a nature that could implicate anyone in particular is unlikely since if it were Toturi and Ishikawa would need to go slumming to confirm that no freelance ninja had opportunity to do the deed.

13 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

If a Harrier had snuck into the Lion camp and slit Arasou's throat in his sleep it wouldn't have been any less of a legitimate means of killing him.

I'm not a lawyer but after briefly skimming Wikipedia's article on hearsay my understanding is that Kachiko's confession would also qualify since it wasn't made under oath, in a court setting, or cross examined. Plus it could be argued that the confession was obtained illegally since Hotaru really shouldn't be in Toshi Ranbo at all.

And while there's probably some evidence, any if it being of a nature that could implicate anyone in particular is unlikely since if it were Toturi and Ishikawa would need to go slumming to confirm that no freelance ninja had opportunity to do the deed.

If Hotaru ordered the murder then yes it would be less legitimate.

It actually would be admissible as it was written by Kachiko in her own hand of her own volition. Hotaru destroying it would count as obstruction of justice as she is destroying material evidence which aids in the concealment of a crime, and by not immediately turning Kachiko over to authorities (or at the very least notifying them of her crimes) she runs the risk of becoming an accessory after the fact.

Rather then trusting Wikipedia I would look here.

https://www.upcounsel.com/legal-def-confession

In regards to killing Arasou by sending a Harrier into camp to slit his throat. Well, this is happening during a moment of ~war~ border skirmish between the clans, people die. Ordering an assassination during peace time, well, that’s murder.

Of course, Rokugan law follows the principle of might makes it right, so had Aramoro succeeded, hey, that’s legitimate, but having failed, she is a criminal.

Anyway, I, for one, am enjoying how all our prejudices(in the sense of preconceived opinions) are molding how we interpret the information given to us in different ways. I mean, we as readers have knowledge that the characters don’t and yet we disagree on what this all means or where it will lead to.

What stuck out to me about this story is that we finally saw a competent Champion Hotaru, it was boss how she gained refuge for her army when it could have ended in that army laying siege to Toshi Ranbo against the Scorpion Clan and Imperial Legions! Secondly, in my opinion, we saw the real Bayushi Kachiko when she was alone with Hotaru. She lost her composure and there was no manipulation, just the legitimate outcry for help. She even admitted to herself that she had done what she did as a selfish grab for power- not the good of the clan or the Empire.

As far as Bayushi Shoju's actions: the "honorable" thing to do would have been to cut Kachiko's head off, then commit seppuku for his failure, taking full responsibility for what happened. However, Shoju had to make an even harder decision. For the peace and stability of the Empire he had to play the villain, for the Empire would have tore itself apart in the vacuum of power. I think it would have been full scale war like the original Scorpion Clan Coup had led to. Now it pretty much just sounds like there are whispers of a coup, but the Scorpion get blamed for everything so this is pretty normal.

So, I went to reread The Last Stone Played to recheck Kachiko’s behaviour. She ordered Aramoro to kill Toturi after Miya Satoshi saw the murdered Emperor and ordered Toturi killed because Sotorii had told her that the Emerald Champion had written the Edict.

She finds the Edict after that. She realizes she drops the ball, but instead of even trying to see if Toturi is still alive and then try to prevent his murder, she is still trying to think of ways to make Shoju leave her off the hook. As she admitted, she dropped the threads. But she was hoping she would be forgiven.

Again, she has always been selfish. When she heard that Daisetsu would become the new Emperor she didn’t think of her own son being close to the Throne, she only thought how that was a great moment for her.

It was rare that one’s duty and one’s aspirations overlapped so perfectly. As her oaths demanded, she had protected the Hantei name. What’s more, she’d corrected his mistake. Until tonight, she had only ever regarded her nightly report to the Emperor as a chore of her station, more often awakening the elderly ruler from accidental slumber than informing him of something requiring his attention. But now, she thanked Bayushi’s spirit that this tedious chore had been hers. Had someone else been entrusted with it—had someone else stumbled into the room just then...

So Hotaru says Kachiko will help her set this right. She didn't say she's going to help Kachiko cover it up. That's interesting. How is Hotaru going to salvage this train wreck?

Also I love Yojiro in this story. The guy continues so somehow avoid not getting killed for following his very rigid moral code. It must be very nerve wracking to be Yojiro.

Slight thread necromancy, but was just reading Emerald Empire and came across the Treachery at Toshi Ranbo plot hook.

Yes, it's now an imperial holding (in practical terms a scorpion holding) but Kakita Sukenobu, the former steward, still lives there. So I'd be surprised, especially since it's her former home, if his ronin advisor-slash-possibly-lover Haneko would have left.

Which means the last survivor of the Goseki family (massacred by the Tsume family) and the current Tsume daimyo are in the same city for the winter. This can only go well.