I have found that I don’t really have a plan vs squadrons that have rogue
carriers I can kill the carrier but rogue are something else. Anyone got any ideas to stop rouge squadrons? I tried tight deployment, and flak but it did not work. I would rather avoid using 30 points of squadrons as it would eat up an activation.
Edited by Sobonis01Use squadrons.
Quad laser turrets
Linked turbolaser turrets
Using flak to kill/cripple squads prior to engaging ships
Tabling them turn 3
Cluster bombs
Toryn Flak
Flechette Torpedos
Exogorths
Early warning system
Parking on station or obstacles to obstruct hull zones
if you want to be efficient, a pair of scatter aces are the cheapest option to delay enemy squadrons long enough for your flak to cause damage.
If I go squadronless, I usually just commit to a acknowledgment that some of my ships will succumb to squadrons because I decided to value activations over a fighter screen, If you move at speed 3 rogue squadrons have a bit of trouble keeping up.
Or dedicate a capital ship to hunting squadrons with LTT or if you really fear squadrons you can use heavy fire zone on a ship with 2 blue flak dice.
Sorry to say squadrons are a big part of this game and I typically spend at least 50 points as a means of dealing with them (such as running 2 escort nebs with LTT in an all small ship list and I still consider that unreliable protection.)
Use squadrons.
1 hour ago, Sobonis01 said:I have found that I don’t really have a plan vs squadrons that have rouge. Vs carriers I can kill the carrier but rouges are something else. Anyone got any ideas to stop rouge squadrons? I tried tight deployment, and flak but it did not work. I would rather avoid using 30 points of squadrons as it would eat up an activation.
To deal with rouge, wash them well. Use baby wipes if you have to.
Rogue squadrons, on the other hand, really hate being chomped by Exogorths so always choose Asteroid Tactics as your yellow objective. Surprise Attack and Dangerous Territory also help you take out their ships and hide on obstacles whilst scoring points.
Meanwhile, as others have said, use Flakand the upgrades they've mentioned.
I often run squadless and you can win if you kill enough of their actual ships.
1 hour ago, geek19 said:
Thank you!
On 5/3/2020 at 4:27 PM, Ginkapo said:Quad laser turrets
Linked turbolaser turrets
Using flak to kill/cripple squads prior to engaging ships
Tabling them turn 3
Cluster bombs
Toryn Flak
Flechette Torpedos
Exogorths
Early warning system
Parking on station or obstacles to obstruct hull zones
I would also add some pure tanking upgrades to this list, such as Expert Shield Techs, Iden (especially on a Raider), Captain Brunson (especially on an Interdictor), and Reinforced Blast Doors. @rasproteus just spanked the **** out of me with a squadless Imp fleet. It was a thing of beauty.
Edited by Truthiness3 hours ago, Truthiness said:I would also add some pure tanking upgrades to this list, such as Expert Shield Techs, Iden (especially on a Raider), Captain Brunson (especially on an Interdictor), and Reinforced Blast Doors. @rasproteus just spanked the **** out of me with a squadless Imp fleet. It was a thing of beauty.
That Arq soaked 16 damage by my calculations - I think it could have done slightly better, but I'm still learning to use EST optimally.
On 5/3/2020 at 4:27 PM, Ginkapo said:Tabling them
turn 3
Exogorths
My favorite two of the list.
A Raider with the Instigator title can keep a group of enemy Rogue squadrons engaged, even if they have an Intel squadron. The Raider can use Flechette Torpedoes + Crits to switch the squadrons' activation sliders so they can't attack.
If Instigator is paired with a second Raider with the Impetuous title and Agent Kallus, they could inflict significant damage to enemy squadrons.
However, when I use the Raider Duo, I usually include the TIE Trio: Ciena Rae, Valen Rudor, and Howlrunner. That combination can devastate a group of enemy squadrons, regardless of Rogue. But they can be countered by the enemy splitting up their squadrons.
There isn't a M.E.T.A. solution to countering squadrons with ships.
As others have recommended, the best squadron counter is to use your own squadrons. K.I.S.S.
3 hours ago, Reavern said:There isn't a M.E.T.A. solution to countering squadrons with ships.
SSD can hard-counter squadrons quite nicely.
3 minutes ago, PT106 said:SSD can hard-counter squadrons quite nicely.
And it only costs 220 -- points and $$$.
The SSD is hardly the most economical solution for dealing with enemy squadrons.
4 minutes ago, Reavern said:And it only costs 220 -- points and $$$.
The SSD is hardly the most economical solution for dealing with enemy squadrons.
It's niche - but is still a meta solution if one needs a squadless hard counter against squads.
A SSD isn't a hard counter to Rogue squadrons. What makes Rogue squadrons difficult for ships to deal with is that they can move-&-attack/attack-&-move without relying on being activated by a ship. Rogue squadrons are immune to the "carrier" ship being destroyed or Slicer Tools changing its Squadron commands.
The SSD just renders the Rogue title irrelevant because the squads won't need to move-&-attack because the ship is so GD'd big they're unlikely to be out of attack range.
Also, you didn't even specify the version of the SSD or any upgrade cards to enhance its Anti-Squadron abilities, like Annihilator or Agent Kallus. Aside from Annihilator ship title, a Command or Assault Prototype aren't significantly better than an ISD against squads because they both have 2 Anti-Squadron dice. The SSD Prototypes could be taken out by swarms of Firesprays or Decimators, which have enough hull points to tank the SSD's flak for 3 or more rounds.
Only the Executor variants have 3 AS dice and 33 hull points, which makes them virtually immune to squadrons; but neither Executor can fit in a 400-point list.
1 hour ago, PT106 said:It's niche - but is still a meta solution if one needs a squadless hard counter against squads.
Agreed. It's a lot of points and may not be very effective against other archetypes, but I think this will solve a squadron problem, Rogue or otherwise.
SSD Assault Prototype (250)
• Emperor Palpatine (3)
• Agent Kallus (3)
• Reeva Demesne (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Quad Laser Turrets (5)
• Point-Defense Reroute (5)
• H9 Turbolasers (8)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Annihilator (8)
= 297 Points
5 hours ago, PT106 said:SSD can hard-counter squadrons quite nicely.
The SSD by itself can ignore weak anti ship squadron balls by simply absorbing the pitiful damage output.
Against max rogue balls and dedicated bombers it cannot with a particular suite of upgrades. At which point its not the SSD that counters but the upgrades.
6 hours ago, Reavern said:Only the Executor variants have 3 AS dice and 33 hull points, which makes them virtually immune to squadrons; but neither Executor can fit in a 400-point list.
Technically, there is a way to fit an Executor-I into a 400pt game.
A) play a Rebellion in the Rim campaign which uses 400pts instead of 200pts for each fleet. Which my local group is doing.
It's a terrible idea, because it's limited to 1 upgrade. MSU eats it for breakfast - I tested it out, in case one of the Imperial players decided to fly one - and it really needs all the upgrades to function.
On 5/3/2020 at 10:15 PM, Sobonis01 said:I have found that I don’t really have a plan vs squadrons that have rogue
carriers I can kill the carrier but rogue are something else. Anyone got any ideas to stop rouge squadrons? I tried tight deployment, and flak but it did not work. I would rather avoid using 30 points of squadrons as it would eat up an activation.
You just have to kill 266 points on ships. Leverage on that. XD
14 hours ago, Reavern said:A SSD isn't a hard counter to Rogue squadrons. What makes Rogue squadrons difficult for ships to deal with is that they can move-&-attack/attack-&-move without relying on being activated by a ship. Rogue squadrons are immune to the "carrier" ship being destroyed or Slicer Tools changing its Squadron commands.
The SSD just renders the Rogue title irrelevant because the squads won't need to move-&-attack because the ship is so GD'd big they're unlikely to be out of attack range.
Also, you didn't even specify the version of the SSD or any upgrade cards to enhance its Anti-Squadron abilities, like Annihilator or Agent Kallus. Aside from Annihilator ship title, a Command or Assault Prototype aren't significantly better than an ISD against squads because they both have 2 Anti-Squadron dice. The SSD Prototypes could be taken out by swarms of Firesprays or Decimators, which have enough hull points to tank the SSD's flak for 3 or more rounds.
Only the Executor variants have 3 AS dice and 33 hull points, which makes them virtually immune to squadrons; but neither Executor can fit in a 400-point list.
With respect - Rogue squadrons are very vulnerable to being flakked, particularly by the Assault SSD, which has red flak. With LTT, it's reasonably reliable too. Sure, @PT106 didn't explicitly mention the upgrades that you would want to take, but you clearly know them because you listed them right here.
I think, overall, you are underselling SSD's when you say they aren't "significantly better" against squads when you compare the opportunity costs involved. For example, taking Kallus on an ISD costs you a valuable officer slot, while on an SSD it's simply one of the three (and with Officer Vader around, it's a pretty cheap reroll even if you run into a no-squad list). Likewise, you aren't (generally) going to be running Boarding Teams or Boosted Comms/Expanded Hangars on your SSD - once again, that's an upgrade slot for QLT that's otherwise going unused. Finally, adding another 5-10 points on a 250-point (base cost) ship is a lot easier to justify if it goes unused than it would be on a 112-point base.
I also think that the goalposts are moving, just slightly, from "squads" to "rogue squads" - frankly, "full rogue" is pretty rare competitively. YT2400 spam is by far the most common, and simultaneously the smallest actual rogue threat to the SSD: it's going to take them at least 5 rounds to kill an SSD on their own, and you can probably flak half of them to death by the end of round 4 (with QLT/LTT). I would 110% advise you to build against "standard" squadrons and not to worry about "full rogue" - given that the competitive meta is pretty heavily invested into non-rogue 134 squad balls, and with the understanding that the BEST counter to 134 rogues is 134 *non-rogues*, it's pretty likely that will be a matchup that someone else will handle on your behalf.
The "best" counter to 134 points of squadrons is a more efficient 100 points of squadrons. For which the best counter is a more efficent 60 points of squadrons. For which the best counter is a more efficient 30 points of squadrons. For which the best counter is no squadrons. For which the best counter is 134 points of squadrons.
2 hours ago, rasproteus said:I would 110% advise you to build against "standard" squadrons and not to worry about "full rogue" - given that the competitive meta is pretty heavily invested into non-rogue 134 squad balls, and with the understanding that the BEST counter to 134 rogues is 134 *non-rogues*, it's pretty likely that will be a matchup that someone else will handle on your behalf.
I actually find rogues to be a significant threat to carrier builds. They have more flexible timing windows with which to strike, a more combat-oriented ship component, and the ability to play defensively to prevent commanded squadrons from doing the heavy lifting required of them. The SSD and exogorth objective suites may shrug off YT-2400s, but carrier fleets are going to have a tough time.
Edited by The Jabbawookie1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:The "best" counter to 134 points of squadrons is a more efficient 100 points of squadrons. For which the best counter is a more efficent 60 points of squadrons. For which the best counter is a more efficient 30 points of squadrons. For which the best counter is no squadrons. For which the best counter is 134 points of squadrons.
What Biggs said.
This is an excellent summary of the age old "rock paper scissors lizard spock" that sums up the nature of our game, and young players should take it to heart.
@Sobonis01OP - I imagine that part of your question stems from our big dumb 24 hour match up in round one. Be encouraged that you encountered that rarest of beasts - a sober Australian.
But actually - an MSU+S(R) bidding for second {Multiple Small Units with Squadrons (rogue)}. You were out-activated and out-deployed. You had the bid, but chose to go first (which is what I wanted). You then chose "fighter ambush", which gave me the potential to accrue an inordinate amount of tokens. Superior positions would have given the possibility of even more points. I hate to say it, but the right choice is ALWAYS most wanted - at least there is a cap on the amount of points you lose when/if the targeted ship is destroyed.
My current favourite list has many weaknesses - not least is being out-activated by an aggressive first-bidder with an MC30 or glad or bigger that can last/first my formation. At the moment, the meta is tending towards 5 activations at most - six is increasingly rare.
Effectively, your list encountered a list designed to destroy it. In the "big dumb" tournament I scored two 10/1s - both against squadless builds who either chose or were made first player. My two 6/5s were against a full squad list (Pryce!) and a heavy squad Yavaris list.
45 minutes ago, LTD said:My current favourite list has many weaknesses - not least is being out-activated by an aggressive first-bidder with an MC30 or glad or bigger that can last/first my formation. At the moment, the meta is tending towards 5 activations at most - six is increasingly rare.
Like this?
The Magnificent Seven
Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 389/400
Commander: Leia Organa (com)
Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Asteroid Tactics
Navigation Objective: Hyperspace Migration
CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Jainas Light ( 2 points)
- Ezra Bridger ( 3 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 56 total ship cost
CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 51 total ship cost
CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 51 total ship cost
CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 51 total ship cost
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Sabine Wren ( 4 points)
- Proximity Mines ( 4 points)
= 26 total ship cost
[ flagship ] MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Leia Organa (com) ( 38 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Lando Calrissian (off) ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)
- Assault Concussion Missiles ( 7 points)
= 132 total ship cost
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Proximity Mines ( 4 points)
= 22 total ship cost
= 0 total squadron cost