Just now, TasteTheRainbow said:

When normalized for testing rates this is entirely false.

Compare deaths then. Sweden's per capita death toll is only slightly higher than the US, and substantially lower than Spain, Italy, France, and UK. About on par with the Netherlands. Less than half that of Belgium.

Why do you even try @TasteTheRainbow ? It is a difficult discussion already when people argue in good faith. The relations are so complex that a simple comparison won't help. Just let it go, there's no helping.

34 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Who.

User Stay OT Leader.

Formerly known as SOTL, formerly known as Stay On The Leader, formerly known as Jim (maybe)

22 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

There is only one actual solution to preventing those extra deaths due to unemployment: Checks to the masses until we have a handle on the virus.

You've got to be kidding me. Where the heck do you think they're going to get the money for that?

That’s

2 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Compare deaths then. Sweden's per capita death toll is only slightly higher than the US, and substantially lower than Spain, Italy, France, and UK. About on par with the Netherlands. Less than half that of Belgium.

That’s not a good comparison. The US rate is falsely low at present because the virus isn’t established everywhere. Try comparing anyone to China’s death rate with their billions of population.

And deaths is a really poor metric for making the correct decisions. We should really be talking about something more like QALY trade offs with costs in both directions.

This is why the eugenics claim is so far off base. We’re facing a trolley problem type of situation, not setting out to commit murder.

1 minute ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Try comparing anyone to China’s death rate with their billions of population.

I don't trust those numbers as far as I could throw their country. They're blatantly false.

3 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

This is why the eugenics claim is so far off base. We’re facing a trolley problem type of situation, not setting out to commit murder.

Totally agreed here. Trolley problem.

17 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Compare deaths then. Sweden's per capita death toll is only slightly higher than the US, and substantially lower than Spain, Italy, France, and UK. About on par with the Netherlands. Less than half that of Belgium.

Yes, they have excellent, universally-available healthcare and they are locking down vulnerable pops sort of halfway. Their deaths are still insanely higher than they needed to be, for which they received no tangible economic benefit. Zip. None.

Their immediate neighbor is a good example of a similar system with lockdown instead of leaving school and restaurants open, Norway has a death rate ~8 times lower as of yesterday.

5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You've got to be kidding me. Where the heck do you think they're going to get the money for that?

The same place they got the money for the 2017 tax cuts and the first round of checks. They will borrow it. The economic recession is happening no matter what. There’s no way to policy our way out of it by sacrificing grandmas.

1 minute ago, Cerebrawl said:

Totally agreed here. Trolley problem.

Delusional. There’s no switch that turns the economy back on.

Since it appears mods are not around or, uh, doing anything (I've reported the thread at least three times as not relevant to X-Wing), would you guys consider taking this off topic?

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why do you even try @TasteTheRainbow ? It is a difficult discussion already when people argue in good faith. The relations are so complex that a simple comparison won't help. Just let it go, there's no helping.

Because they are saying things that aren’t true and will kill people.

Like I said, I work in public health. Disinfo kills people. We spend an insanely large amount of our time on education. It has a direct and tangible effect on par with good policy.

3 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Yes, they have excellent, universally-available healthcare and they are locking down vulnerable pops sort of halfway. Their deaths are still insanely higher than they needed to be, for which they received no tangible economic benefit. Zip. None.

Sweden's economic downturn and unemployment rate is far less than that in the US. Sweden's unemployment rate has gone up about 1.3%, compared to up about 10% for the USA. Restaurants and tourism are responsible for almost all the increase.

Oh and the healthcare system isn't all it's cracked up to be. Shortage of PPE has lead to the government reducing PPE requirements, rather than securing more PPE.

Oh btw, I'm a Swede.

3 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Because they are saying things that aren’t true and will kill people.

Like I said, I work in public health. Disinfo kills people. We spend an insanely large amount of our time on education. It has a direct and tangible effect on par with good policy.

I understand, and I thank you for that. I have been doing the same for months now within private groups. But at the same time, right now, it's down to one person in a different country. There is not much to be gained anymore.

4 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Because they are saying things that aren’t true and will kill people.

Just like you're ignoring things that are true and will kill people or damage lives in ways that will echo forward for generations.

7 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Delusional. There’s no switch that turns the economy back on.

Yes the lockdowns that have already happened have done irrevocable damage, keeping them in place will cause more irrevocable damage.

7 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

The same place they got the money for the 2017 tax cuts and the first round of checks. They will borrow it. The economic recession is happening no matter what. There’s no way to policy our way out of it by sacrificing grandmas.

Grandmas aren't being saved by people being kept from working either. Grandmas are saved by limiting contact with them, specifically. Lock down the old folks homes, not the jobs.

17 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Totally agreed here. Trolley problem.

Minnesota’s Governor has decided to solve the trolley problem by having everyone get hit by the trolley. Economy, the elderly (our long term care facilities have been ravaged by the virus with a ridiculous number of both our cases and deaths being from within them), everyone but him and his buddies.

15 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Delusional. There’s no switch that turns the economy back on.

It’s called removing the mandatory stay at home orders and lockdowns. The economy will turn itself on the rest of the way. Businesses will find ways to adapt to the situation that the consumer finds acceptable, and life will go on.

But how does allowing businesses to reopen address the impending depression/recession?

4 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

But how does allowing businesses to reopen address the impending depression/recession?

It gives people a chance to start doing something to reverse it and mitigate the worst of it.

5 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

But how does allowing businesses to reopen address the impending depression/recession?

Reduces it. The longer businesses are shut down, the worse the depression is going to be.

10 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

But how does allowing businesses to reopen address the impending depression/recession?

Is that a real question?

29 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Delusional. There’s no switch that turns the economy back on.

4 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

But how does allowing businesses to reopen address the impending depression/recession?

These are two really important points. Even if Stay at Home orders were lifted and businesses permitted to reopen, it is unlikely that many of them will be able to do enough business to stay afloat. While some people will rush back to places like bars, gyms, airplanes, cruises, hotels, and concerts another portion of the society (arguably likely a majority even, at least based on current approval ratings for stay-at-home orders/governors-enforcing-them) is still going to be wary of going to those places as long as Covid-19 is in their communities. These consumers will continue to stay home, even if places are allowed to be open. Also, it's worth noting that essential businesses or ones operating in areas without stay-at-home orders in place are nevertheless sometimes having to shut down when infections break out among their employees, such as the meat processing plants in the US. Allowing a business to legally operate won't ensure that sufficient consumers show up or that the work force stays healthy enough to keep the operation going uninterrupted.

20 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Is that a real question?

Yes, it is.

Because a business only works if clients/customers show up.

If consumer concern for getting infected outweighs the desire to shop/eat out/see a movie, an open but poorly-performing economy is still a recession.

And without the safety net of payroll protection, loan/rent/mortgage leniency, etc., a business that can be open but has no customers may actually be in worse straights than still being required to be closed.

Edit: @EBerling beat me to it.

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Yes, it is.

Because a business only works if clients/customers show up.

If consumer concern for getting infected outweighs the desire to shop/eat out/see a movie, an open but poorly-performing economy is still a recession.

And without the safety net of payroll protection, loan/rent/mortgage leniency, etc., a business that can be open but has no customers may as well still be closed.

All very true, which is why it's so important to fight the fearmongering over Coronavirus and adjust to people being prepared to take reasonable risks and deal with the consequences of doing so.

16 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

All very true, which is why it's so important to fight the fearmongering over Coronavirus and adjust to people being prepared to take reasonable risks and deal with the consequences of doing so.

We also need people to take reasonable precautions.

NO Shirt

NO Shoes

NO Service

has been in store windows for decades.

Adding NO Mask to that doesn't violate people's Constitutional rights nor amount to tyrrany.

Sadly, society at large has been as much of a dumpster fire lately as this thread has been.