1 hour ago, dsul413 said:

Wait...

deadliest pandemic in history...

Maybe the sports games weren't the best place for people to gather in large numbers then? I don't think that's a conclusion we can draw at all.

Have your opinion, absolutely. Just realize when its an opinion is all I ask.

Well, that definitely looks like your opinion to me. Unless of course you have facts to back up that claim. I merely stated that people were not afraid to go out. Of course this was a generation that traveled the world to fight tyranny, not sit on the couch and wait to see how it all turned out.

I’ve stated many, many times in this thread that all we have here is opinions. Unfortunately most want us to believe their opinions are the only ones that really matter. As someone who has been told twice by doctors in the last 30 years that the time to die was here, and they were wrong both times I might add, I’m not going to go into hiding because there’s a big virus or boogey man or anything else on the horizon. We’re all only here for a short period of time. I’m an essential worker, I put in my time at work to help keep the world around me going and if I need to go to the store or anywhere else then I’m going. We can choose to hide in fear or we can choose to live, I’ll choose to live each and every time. I’m in no hurry to skip into the light but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let it paralyze me into hiding at home. When my time finally does come I’ll go willingly with no regrets but I refuse to to live in fear in the meantime.

My state has finally started reopening, you can eat in a restaurant, get a haircut, go to the gym, I guess we’ll see how this spikes or doesn’t spike afterwards. Traffic in my area has been almost back to pre-quarantine loads, people in my area are back out and about and going about their lives, all that’s left is to see what the numbers look like after the reopening.

2 hours ago, Vykk Draygo said:

Well, that definitely looks like your opinion to me. Unless of course you have facts to back up that claim. I merely stated that people were not afraid to go out. Of course this was a generation that traveled the world to fight tyranny, not sit on the couch and wait to see how it all turned out.

I’ve stated many, many times in this thread that all we have here is opinions. Unfortunately most want us to believe their opinions are the only ones that really matter. As someone who has been told twice by doctors in the last 30 years that the time to die was here, and they were wrong both times I might add, I’m not going to go into hiding because there’s a big virus or boogey man or anything else on the horizon. We’re all only here for a short period of time. I’m an essential worker, I put in my time at work to help keep the world around me going and if I need to go to the store or anywhere else then I’m going. We can choose to hide in fear or we can choose to live, I’ll choose to live each and every time. I’m in no hurry to skip into the light but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let it paralyze me into hiding at home. When my time finally does come I’ll go willingly with no regrets but I refuse to to live in fear in the meantime.

My state has finally started reopening, you can eat in a restaurant, get a haircut, go to the gym, I guess we’ll see how this spikes or doesn’t spike afterwards. Traffic in my area has been almost back to pre-quarantine loads, people in my area are back out and about and going about their lives, all that’s left is to see what the numbers look like after the reopening.

There actually are studies on the 1918 pandemic and the difference between cities that enforced early countermeasures and others, like Philly, that threw parades for the end of the war.

https://www.pnas.org/content/104/18/7582

My point was only that perhaps it wasn’t safe to be in those mass gatherings, which could have just as easily (and from research studies, likely) contributed to the high death toll.

I didn’t even provide my opinion on it, really. I just didn’t understand the logic in your argument.

9 hours ago, pheaver said:

To answer the question from the original post, as a relatively healthy middle-aged man, I stand a pretty low chance of dying if I catch Covid-19. However, "pretty low" is non-zero, and playing X-Wing just isn't worth that risk.

If i stopped doing everything, just because it had a "pretty low risk i might die', i would

A) cease smoking

B) stop eating red-meat

C) stop driving

D) cease drinking soda...

7 hours ago, Hippie Moosen said:

As a person living in the US, seeing others within my own country complain of tyranny in regard to our tragically lax response to COVID deeply saddens me. We frankly aren't doing enough in my humble opinion.

.snip..

Too few are acknowledging the massive amounts of resources we continue to squander on our military when those resources could be better used to care for our citizens who have lost their jobs from this virus.

On the first part of that (before the snip), our constitution does not (and should never) cease to apply just because of a pandemic or the like. Otherwise it is not Guaranteeing rights, but in effect, listing privileges we can use..

On the 2nd part, The DEFENSE of the nation is one of the FEW THINGS called for us to spend on, via the constitution. All those 'social welfare programs' are not.

Heck if i had my way, most every federal dept NOT expressly called for via the constitution, would cease to exist.

But that's me.

12 minutes ago, LTuser said:

On the 2nd part, The DEFENSE of the nation is one of the FEW THINGS called for us to spend on, via the constitution. All those 'social welfare programs' are not.

I might be wrong, but I think your govt has taken military spending a little beyond DEFENSE.

2 hours ago, Vykk Draygo said:

I’ve stated many, many times in this thread that all we have here is opinions. Unfortunately most want us to believe their opinions are the only ones that really matter. As someone who has been told twice by doctors in the last 30 years that the time to die was here, and they were wrong both times I might add, I’m not going to go into hiding because there’s a big virus or boogey man or anything else on the horizon. We’re all only here for a short period of time. I’m an essential worker, I put in my time at work to help keep the world around me going and if I need to go to the store or anywhere else then I’m going. We can choose to hide in fear or we can choose to live, I’ll choose to live each and every time. I’m in no hurry to skip into the light but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let it paralyze me into hiding at home. When my time finally does come I’ll go willingly with no regrets but I refuse to to live in fear in the meantime.

My state has finally started reopening, you can eat in a restaurant, get a haircut, go to the gym, I guess we’ll see how this spikes or doesn’t spike afterwards. Traffic in my area has been almost back to pre-quarantine loads, people in my area are back out and about and going about their lives, all that’s left is to see what the numbers look like after the reopening.

This attitude has one fundamental flaw. It isn't just about you!

If you get the disease, you'll spread the desease. That's just a fact. You'll be free of symptoms for up to 10 days while already being contagious. During that time you will give the virus to other people, some of which might die.

Now you might say it's the fault of those other people for going outside and interacting with you. But people NEED to go outside to some degree. You have to go grocery shopping, you have to go to work.
So you get the disease, give it to your wo-workers, they give it to some guy at the grocery store, who then gives it to his family...
Your decisions don't just affect you and your body, they affect others as well and in this particular case, might kill others.

Rugged individualism just does not work when dealing with a pandemic.

3 hours ago, Vykk Draygo said:

Well, that definitely looks like your opinion to me. Unless of course you have facts to back up that claim. I merely stated that people were not afraid to go out.

So you're arguing that we should do what they did back in 1918, when 50 Million People (or roughly 3% of the world's total population) died*? Given that the global population back then was only about 1.7 billion, that means 3% of the global population died during that epidemic. If 3% of the world's 7.8 billion people currently alive died, we'd be looking at 234 Million Deaths (or more than 3x the total deaths (combat, genocide, displacement, starvation, etc.) that resulted from WWII). Of course, it's an open question as to whether or not Covid-19 is "more deadly" than the Influenza epidemic of 1918, and it'll take years to sort out all the data. But we know some places are experiencing death rates around 9%, and rough estimates put the 1918 Influenza epidemic at about 10%. Now before anyone counters that Covid-19 mortality rates around 10% are inflated because of insufficient testing, I assure you that the flu testing back in 1918 was less rigorous. But it's not even about mortality rates. Almost daily researchers are identifying weird lingering effects and complications in Covid-19 patients, even those that were believed to have recovered. Strokes, Covid-Toe, permanent lung scarring/damage, etc etc etc ...


* of course, just because you saw one picture of people at a stadium in masks, it's worth noting that the actual response to the 1918 Pandemic greatly varied by areas. In the US, some cities went about business as usual whereas others locked down and isolated in far more extreme measures than we are doing now (e.g. look at how the pandemic's toll differed widely between places like Pittsburgh--which went on conducting parades and the like--versus places like Kansas City.)

25 minutes ago, Naerytar said:

Rugged individualism just does not work when dealing with a pandemic.

Does it work for anything in this day and age? We live in a thoroughly complex, interconnected, global society defined by specializations in labor and international markets and supply chains and looming universal existential threats like ubiquitous microplastic contamination (seriously, they've found microplastic toxins in stool samples from every group of people tested, no matter how remote, and they've found microplastics in deep sea marine creatures that live at the bottom of the Mariana trench), climate change, and ecological cataclysmic collapse. But people think owning some guns, having a prepper stash, and being provided with zero social safety nets or protections by their government is gonna somehow let them be immune to these sorts of issues. ****, I'm pretty sure if the global grid went down, even the best preppers and survivalists out there will perish when many if not most of the 450 Nuclear Reactors across the planet start melting down since the requisite active cooling mechanisms would fail.

It’s not just the one picture, frame it however you want, you like doing research, look at the pics from all over. Brevig Mission Alaska had 72 out of 80 adults in their village die, as isolated as it is I’m sure that’s from the parades and people partying in the streets. When it’s your time to go it’s your time to go, doesn’t matter if you’re isolated or not. Doesn’t matter if you’re hiding in your house or not, when your number is up your number is up. I choose to face every day standing in defiance of all that tries to remove each of us from the face of this Earth, not hiding and cowering from everything that could potentially be bad. I’m at peace knowing I’ve had a good life whenever and however it may end.

Someone above made the comment that it’s not just about me, as I said I’m an essential worker, so guess what? That means I have to go out to work, to the grocery store, wherever I may need to go. I interact with people everyday who interact with others, why? Because we’re essential workers. There’s no avoiding it, do you suggest all the essential workers should stay home too? I mean seriously, I guess maybe all essential workers should stay home, that way there would be no one to care for the sick, keep food supplies going, keeping fire, police and ambulances running. Yep, that’s probably what we should do, that way everybody will be happy because there would be no one out and about spreading anything. This dumpster fire of a thread has shown me that all the people who are arguing about others going out haven’t put any amount of logical thought past whether or not people should be out. We all stay home who ya gonna call when you need help? Won’t be any food, doctors, nurses, police, emergency services, yes, now that I think about it you are probably all right, let’s all stay home, see how that works out for ya. Peace out, hope everybody has everything they need for the indefinite future.

P.S. don’t call me for help, wouldn’t want to take the chance of getting sick 😷

52 minutes ago, Vykk Draygo said:

Someone above made the comment that it’s not just about me, as I said I’m an essential worker, so guess what? That means I have to go out to work, to the grocery store, wherever I may need to go. I interact with people everyday who interact with others, why? Because we’re essential workers. There’s no avoiding it, do you suggest all the essential workers should stay home too? I mean seriously, I guess maybe all essential workers should stay home, that way there would be no one to care for the sick, keep food supplies going, keeping fire, police and ambulances running. Yep, that’s probably what we should do, that way everybody will be happy because there would be no one out and about spreading anything. This dumpster fire of a thread has shown me that all the people who are arguing about others going out haven’t put any amount of logical thought past whether or not people should be out. We all stay home who ya gonna call when you need help? Won’t be any food, doctors, nurses, police, emergency services, yes, now that I think about it you are probably all right, let’s all stay home, see how that works out for ya. Peace out, hope everybody has everything they need for the indefinite future.

P.S. don’t call me for help, wouldn’t want to take the chance of getting sick 😷

I'm genuinely not sure if you're being purposefully dumb now. I don't know how someone can miss the point that much...
Just to be sure, I'll make it as simple as possible.

You go to work. You go grocery shopping. While doing that, you take as much precautions as possible (keeping distance when possible, wearing masks). You reduce everything else to a minumum.
That's very different from your little iamverybadass speech earlier.

1 hour ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Does it work for anything in this day and age? We live in a thoroughly complex, interconnected, global society defined by specializations in labor and international markets and supply chains and looming universal existential threats like ubiquitous microplastic contamination (seriously, they've found microplastic toxins in stool samples from every group of people tested, no matter how remote, and they've found microplastics in deep sea marine creatures that live at the bottom of the Mariana trench), climate change, and ecological cataclysmic collapse. But people think owning some guns, having a prepper stash, and being provided with zero social safety nets or protections by their government is gonna somehow let them be immune to these sorts of issues. ****, I'm pretty sure if the global grid went down, even the best preppers and survivalists out there will perish when many if not most of the 450 Nuclear Reactors across the planet start melting down since the requisite active cooling mechanisms would fail.

There are definitely some scary similarities to things like climate change. The "It's just a flu, bro" crowd are the same people who think climate change isn't a big deal. Same politicians, too.

And it will play out much the same way. At some point Coronavirus became so bad, that you just HAD to acknowledge it. Same thing will happen with climate change, only that's maybe 2050-2060 and by then it will be too late.

I don't think many people really believe climate change is false, they just pretend they don't believe it because it's the best way for them to try and make sure it happens.

6 hours ago, Vykk Draygo said:

My state has finally started reopening, you can eat in a restaurant, get a haircut, go to the gym, I guess we’ll see how this spikes or doesn’t spike afterwards. Traffic in my area has been almost back to pre-quarantine loads, people in my area are back out and about and going about their lives, all that’s left is to see what the numbers look like after the reopening.

Wishing you the best of luck with that Vykk.

3 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I might be wrong, but I think your govt has taken military spending a little beyond DEFENSE.

US military spending has very little to do with defense.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

9 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I might be wrong, but I think your govt has taken military spending a little beyond DEFENSE.

6 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

US military spending has very little to do with defense.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

Yeah, as an American, it was pretty depressing to discover that if we wanted to kill 100,000 foreigners by tomorrow the USA would have all the soldiers there in 12 hours replete with toilet paper, PPE, and ammo, but if the USA needs to prevent the death of 100,000 citizens we haven't a fkn clue.

10 hours ago, LTuser said:

On the 2nd part, The DEFENSE of the nation is one of the FEW THINGS called for us to spend on, via the constitution. All those 'social welfare programs' are not.

Heck if i had my way, most every federal dept NOT expressly called for via the constitution, would cease to exist.

But that's me.

Exactly what is a government For The People doing if it is not helping it's citizen's welfare?

Moreover, what's the point in defending me from the outside world if you then let me die of a preventable disease??

Quote

If i stopped doing everything, just because it had a "pretty low risk i might die', i would

A) cease smoking

B) stop eating red-meat

C) stop driving

D) cease drinking soda...

A. = Cancer and heart dz

B. = heart dz

D. = Diabetes

These are the top 3 killers of Americans, so I have NO IDEA what you mean by "low risk."

7 hours ago, LTuser said:

If i stopped doing everything, just because it had a "pretty low risk i might die', i would

A) cease smoking

B) stop eating red-meat

C) stop driving

D) cease drinking soda...

Uhhh... This but unironically

With all these people out there saying the don't believe the virus, the statistics, the medical professionals and the experts, apparently willing to risk their long term health for a short term haircut...

.. I'd say it's Darwin at work, but that would imply they're only putting themselves at risk, when they're not. These selfish planks aren't just risking their own health, their risking their parent's health, their children's, their loved ones and that of anyone and everyone they come into contact with.

"Generation Me"? I'd say so.

Seems like a bunch of otherwise intelligent mates are feeding far too often at the rotten trough of corporate media (soaking up the panic and lies) and not thinking for themselves and investigating the actual facts around us, which are all open source.

Anyone who would give up their freedoms for security, deserve neither.

Relax fellows... grab a tea or a pint if needed (regardless the hour) and depending on how bloody uptight you are.

*bleep*

tin foil detected.

*bleep*

tin foil detected.

10 hours ago, LTuser said:

On the first part of that (before the snip), our constitution does not (and should never) cease to apply just because of a pandemic or the like. Otherwise it is not Guaranteeing rights, but in effect, listing privileges we can use..

On the 2nd part, The DEFENSE of the nation is one of the FEW THINGS called for us to spend on, via the constitution. All those 'social welfare programs' are not.

Heck if i had my way, most every federal dept NOT expressly called for via the constitution, would cease to exist.

on your first point, it feels incredibly irresponsible and misleading to conflate precaution and temporary quarantine in the face of a very real danger with eliminating personal liberties permanently. personal liberties have always been trumped by the collective good in any functioning society. that's why your city can tell you not to freely discharge firearms in your backyard or host the loudest block party ever without proper permits. breaking quarantine puts people at risk beyond just the person who broke it accepting that risk. if you want to go about doing your own thing that's all well and good, but what about those around you who could be exposed to danger because you needed to go out for something non-essential? it's not fair to risk the safety of others because you wanted to go to a concert or a ball game.

on your second point, our country has the largest military budget on the planet with enough resources to stock bases located all over the globe. the last budget assessment I saw put our total military expenses above the total budgets of the next five top spending nations on the planet. not individually, but combined. we have spent billions, with a B, on development of a plane that will seemingly never be completed. we have lots filled with hundreds of tanks that go unused because there simply is no need for the massive # of them that we produce. we have enough missiles, guns, tanks, bombers, destroyers, aircraft carriers, etc. to last us a long long time. I'm not suggesting we eliminate our military entirely, but we certainly should stop allowing it to dominate our national budget, while more important services like public education or the postal service are being allowed to bankrupt and fall into the hands of the private sector.

on your third point, and sorry in advance but this is gonna be a long one, a nation that cares for it's people is a nation that has stability and frankly happier citizens. there are drawbacks to any system, but just because the line at the DMV is slow doesn't mean they aren't doing important work. they help educate people on how to drive so that innocent pedestrians aren't killed in a collision. they register vehicles so that we can know when someone has stolen someones car and catch that crook. It's not in the constitution but I certainly wouldn't want to drive in a country without a system like this in place. On the same train of thought, electricity, running water, and even the fire department aren't in the constitution, but boy do people seem to enjoy having those services available. I'm sure there are drawbacks to universal healthcare, but it has to better than what we have now, where diabetics better have lots of money laying around if they want the insulin they need to live, or an ambulance ride can cost thousands of dollars, or a lengthy hospital stay recovering from a life threatening illness can bankrupt a person. America loves the myth of the lone man, pulling himself up by his bootstraps and single handedly becoming a millionaire through just his own determination and skill, but it's just that, a myth. we live in a society, a collective of people that have to cooperate in order for things to get done. sure there are some of us who make influential discoveries or revolutionary products, but that simply wouldn't have been possible without the contributions of people that came before them and the help of the people around them. we love to pretend that people should be forced to fend for themselves here in the US, completely forgetting that without cooperation we would never have even progressed to living in tribal societies. we'd be family groups like you see other primates form, or possibly lone individuals hoarding what little they have to themselves out in the wild. progress requires cooperation, and I don't see anything cooperative or progressive about refusing life saving treatment to people because they don't have enough weird green paper with faces on it. social services that help the general public are essential to the continued evolution of our society, and the faster people realize that a government caring for it's people should be the norm rather the exception, the sooner it's citizens can live more fulfilling lives, and maybe start to see empathy as a necessity rather than a luxury.

2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Anyone who would give up their freedoms for security, deserve neither.

This may be the most ridiculous thing I've seen, not just in this thread, but on these boards. And I've seen people post lists that non-ironically equip Targeting Computer to ships with Target Lock on their action bar.

The point of human societies are to constrain freedoms, ideally in ways that are as just and fair as possible, in order to produce the most freedom. Otherwise, as Hobbes notes, your stuck in a state of nature that is "red and tooth and claw" and no one has any rights and fear, terror, and force keep most people from having any meaningful freedom, despite that they are not constrained by any rules of society. If you think Mad Max is preferable to having to obey traffic laws...well we're clearly at an impasse. Humans have recognized for centuries that if you want to have any chance of a meaningful pursuit of liberty and opportunity, you have to recognize that an individual's freedoms are always restrained in all sorts of ways by the negative rights of others to not be harmed, ie "The freedom to swing one's fist ends at the next person's nose."

35 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

This may be the most ridiculous thing I've seen, not just in this thread, but on these boards.

It's a paraphrase of ol' Ben Frank, and a particularly bad one, and one that misses both the point and the context of his message. Mainly by omitting the word "essential".

To be clear, even in less "uncertain times" (I'm starting to really hate that phrase), billions of people give up their freedom for security every single day. It's called working for a living.

12 hours ago, Naerytar said:

This attitude has one fundamental flaw. It isn't just about you!

If you get the disease, you'll spread the desease. That's just a fact. You'll be free of symptoms for up to 10 days while already being contagious. During that time you will give the virus to other people, some of which might die.

Now you might say it's the fault of those other people for going outside and interacting with you. But people NEED to go outside to some degree. You have to go grocery shopping, you have to go to work.
So you get the disease, give it to your wo-workers, they give it to some guy at the grocery store, who then gives it to his family...
Your decisions don't just affect you and your body, they affect others as well and in this particular case, might kill others.

Rugged individualism just does not work when dealing with a pandemic.

SO how's about we extend the 'lock downs (which in effect are nothing more than putting folks under house arrest without any form of due process), till a cure is made.. SEE HOW MANY Deaths we get with that!

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

With all these people out there saying the don't believe the virus, the statistics, the medical professionals and the experts, apparently willing to risk their long term health for a short term haircut...

With as often as those experts keep being proven wrong, or 'mislead', i'd rather trust a used car salesman, thanks...

18 minutes ago, LTuser said:

With as often as those experts keep being proven wrong, or 'mislead', i'd rather trust a used car salesman, thanks...

Scientists are wrong about stuff all the time. In almost any important discovery, somebody got it wrong first, then they discovered something else and changed their opinion. What's important about the scientific process is that scientists will change their beliefs in response to new evidence and accept that they were wrong before. That's why you might see "contradicting statistics" or "mislead results," but what you're really seeing is a properly functioning scientific community reaching conclusions. I mean, if you want to dispute what they're saying, you can, but they're the ones with Ph.Ds (you might have one too, I don't know you) in science, and I doubt the metaphorical car salesman does.

33 minutes ago, LTuser said:

With as often as those experts keep being proven wrong, or 'mislead', i'd rather trust a used car salesman, thanks...

...and I'd rather trust the educated opinion of time served experts working on the front line of the epidemic than the ill-advised platitudes of some random joe shmoe on the internet sat behind their keyboard, thanks.

2 hours ago, LTuser said:

SO how's about we extend the 'lock downs (which in effect are nothing more than putting folks under house arrest without any form of due process), till a cure is made.. SEE HOW MANY Deaths we get with that!

Ridiculous strawman.

2 hours ago, LTuser said:

With as often as those experts keep being proven wrong, or 'mislead', i'd rather trust a used car salesman, thanks...

And have you set that in relation to how often experts are right?

Take X-Wing as an example. Let's say you've never played a game of X-Wing, you don't know the rules, you've never even heard of it. But you want answers to some very specific questions like "Is Sun Fac OP? Would he be OP if you reduced his costs by 5 points? What's the best Sun Fac list?".
Would you

a) ask experienced X-Wing players (i.e. experts) what they think?
b) google for a couple of hours and "form your own opinion"?

and what would yield better results?

40 minutes ago, Naerytar said:

...take X-Wing as an example. Let's say you've never played a game of X-Wing, you don't know the rules, you've never even heard of it. But you want answers to some very specific questions like "Is Sun Fac OP? Would he be OP if you reduced his costs by 5 points? What's the best Sun Fac list?".

Would you

a) ask experienced X-Wing players (i.e. experts) what they think?
b) google for a couple of hours and "form your own opinion"?

Well, clearly he'd ask a used car salesman. 😂

So I've done my best to stay away from this thread, but I can't help keeping up to date with the conversation. I would just like to say that I love how much we all care (note this is not sarcasm). I think that it is fantastic that we all care about the direction that (sorry to the rest of the world, but I'm seeing that the majority of this is about the U.S.) this country is going. To look at this from a purely glass-half-full view (and perhaps this is just me being naive), I think that this "discussion" is good. The fact that we all are up in arms, protecting what we relive to be the right course for this country. It makes me happy to see that everyone is involved, and cares.

I think that we have seen both ends of this spectrum, and I think that we can all agree that the truth here (truth being the right course of action), is somewhere in the middle. I disagree with the people who think that this thread should be locked up and deleted. I see what you are saying with the disrespect, but I would make the argument that this how things should be. It is a bummer that we all feel the need to be rude to each other (I'm not faulting anyone in particular here- I think that we all have moments where we take our anger out on someone else, or retaliate to what we feel was a personal attack), but if that is the way that it's going to be, then I say let it be that way. Life isn't clean and "respectful" and the solution to the virus, (and I would make the argument more importantly) the economy.

So those are my two cents, and to all of you who are willing to put yourself out there and hash out your feelings, kudos to you! Thank you for your concern for our country, and for ultimately each other. Because isn't that really what this is all about? Were arguing here about the best way to keep our neighbors and fellow citizens safe and prosperous. So laugh at me if you will, but from an outside perspective this is good!

In retrospect this post reads a little too sing-songy for my liking (this was not my intention), but...... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯