As an example no list could have more than 3 upgrades regardless of the number of ships.
And no ship could have more than 1 of those 3 upgrades. Excludes 0 pt Upgrades.

Across all formats.

Specific Poll: Would X-Wing Be Better If There Was A 3 Upgrade Limit On Lists?
https://strawpoll.com/xsdw4br3

Generic Poll: Could Limiting Upgrades Per List & Ship Make X-Wing More Fun?
https://strawpoll.com/ex7zbh88

Would Configurations count, because all ships with them would effectively be banned.

How many combos need at least 2 upgrades?

Lots of crews would be wasted, as they apply to secondary weapons, for instance.

9 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Would Configurations count, because all ships with them would effectively be banned.

Im not sure? Intentionally didnt specify that. I could see it working both ways. But 0 pt upgrades could probably be exempt.

Depends.

A general blanket limit would not make it better. Think about s-foils, or struts, or ordnance on ordnance carriers. These make that suggestion nearly impossible. But there might be workarounds that could be really interesting. Unfortunately they would be too complicated I think.

For example, every ship allows you to spend e.g. 3 points on upgrades? A 6 ship list has 18pt of upgrades, a 3 ship list only 9. Freely distributed or one per ship doesn't immediately matter, even if I would prefer the former. Another workaround could be to allow 1 upgrade per ship in the list, again freely distributed or not.

Could be fun things to try as a special format. Of course I'm assuming here that higher ship count lists are more interesting because they have usually more generics. Not everyone agrees with that idea, and then the entire suggestion makes no sense anyway.

Nope. My issue is that it kills two things.

• First is thematic friends. Putting movie friends on the Falcon gets really hard now.
• Second thing it kills is variety of ships within a list. Different ships need different upgrades. A Gunboat needs at least one secondary weapon, and probably needs a Sensor upgrade (and probably Advanced SLAM). Bring one gunboat, and you can have no upgrades anywhere else in the list. So a list can only bring Gunboats with the same loadout, and it gets wicked boring.

I figure all a 3-upgrade-limit mostly does is drive lists towards boring aces who don't need upgrades. Sure, Boba Fett is stopped, but far too much is lost in collateral damage.

*edit* And I may have misread the conditions, and reading them properly gets EVEN WORSE.

*edit 2* There have been enough edits to the premise in the OP that this response might not entirely make sense anymore...

A side thought: if the enemy is mondo-wombo-combo-wing, the solution isn't "no one can bring upgrades in a game designed around people bringing upgrades." One possible solution could be a more robust quickbuild setup.

Musing around a bit:

• A system which uses real points, so that the totals adapt in real time as components need nerfs.
• There could be more flexibility by allowing ships without upgrades, or with one of a few different packages they could bring.
  • Each ship has an "open to anyone" loadout or two
    • Ships like Y-Wings and Gunboats and other ordnance ships would have multiple packages
    • A YT-XX00 or Firespray or TIE interceptor might only have one standard package
  • Each pilot could have a unique build or two.
    • Pilots with more lore behind them (movie characters, mostly) might get multiple tailored-to-them loadouts
    • These would be designed take advantage of some of the unique strengths of pilot abilities, but without getting too deep into combo, and potentially with extra stuff you don't really care about as a tax.
  • Even if there aren't overlaps in the ugprades
• Some examples:
  • Boba Fett could bring:
    • The generic Firespray kit which might be only Perceptive Copilot.
    • One or two fat builds, but each has stuff you don't want.
      • Maybe one is just Slave One and Proton Torpedoes
      • The other has Fearless and Seismic Charges and Shield and Contraband Cybernetics and Tractor Beam, but maybe not Slave One.
  • Major Vynder could bring:
    • A unique-to-him loadout with FCS, Advanced SLAM, Diamond Boron Missiles, Advanced Proton Torpedoes, and Lone Wolf.
    • A generic Proton Torpedoes, OS-1, Passive Sensors kit
    • A generic Ion Cannon and Advanced SLAM kit
  • Rey could bring:
    • A build with Finn and the title, but not Rose or Korr Sella. Maybe toss on a missile, just to make the build less efficient.
    • Maybe a Chewie crew + R2-D2 crew version (Rebel R2-D2 crew? New card? whatever).
    • A generic package with Engine Upgrade and Contraband Cybernetics
    • Rey-gunner would be an option that Chewie could take.
  • Maybe Scyks and T-70 get a bit of an exception: maybe they could bring any upgrade for their Weapons Hardpoint, but they have a lot fewer options for their builds.

So what this adds to a low-upgrade-scheme is the ability to construct a list of a lot of different elements for a diverse set of threats, while keeping the most absurd mumbo-jumbo-wing at bay. Downside is that it'd take a lot of work to come up with ship loadouts which are somewhat compelling (one secret to Quickbuild is there are certainly some underpriced ships, and there wouldn't be here), and likely for these loadouts to change periodically, so they don't get too stale.

I think what it comes down to is that 2e X-Wing is not a game designed to function without upgrades. Maybe there's some 3rd Edition theoretically possible which doesn't really have upgrades, but it'd take a radical rework.

No.

If it were something like "no more than 2 upgrades per ship (excluding Configurations and Titles)" or "may not fill more than half of a ship's upgrade slots (again, excluding Configurations/Titles)", then I'd be willing to give it a try.

I'll add a couple of thoughts on what @theBitterFig said, cuz I agree with he said.

First and foremost,

Quote

2e X-Wing is not a game designed to function without upgrades

this. Limiting upgrades makes the game smaller and less creative. While a lot of people only consider this a "flying game," lots of other folks enjoy listbuilding. Preventing players from upgrading ships significantly removes a "player choice" aspect of the lists that can be designed. It would end every single conversation about optimal builds via upgrades, and while most of the folks here might say "you'd be a moron not to fly X on Y," lots of others don't mind sub-optimal combinations because they want to do what they want to do.

Secondly,

Quote

it'd take a lot of work to come up with ship loadouts which are somewhat compelling (one secret to Quickbuild is there are certainly some underpriced ships, and there wouldn't be here), and likely for these loadouts to change periodically, so they don't get too stale

if you ax all the diversity provided by upgrades, you going to have to replace it somehow or the game goes flat. Likely, this would involve baking upgrades directly into pilot cards, which would necessitate a lot more pilots in the game to keep options available. So now you have a half-dozen pilots replacing 1+Upgrades, 3 versions of Soontir Fel, or a Soontir Fel that FFG re-upgrades for you from time-to-time.

However, I will note that you can take this idea too far; I have always thought that making pilots and ships separate cards was a horrible idea, in terms of complexity and balance. [ShipPilot] + Upgrades is a good compromise.

12 minutes ago, Subhntr said:

No.

If it were something like "no more than 2 upgrades per ship (excluding Configurations and Titles)" or "may not fill more than half of a ship's upgrade slots (again, excluding Configurations/Titles)", then I'd be willing to give it a try.

Yea assume 0 pt upgrades are exempt.

I think 2 upgrades per ship is to much though to achieve the desired result.

4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

However, I will note that you can take this idea too far; I have always thought that making pilots and ships separate cards was a horrible idea, in terms of complexity and balance. [ShipPilot] + Upgrades is a good compromise.

Star Trek Attack Wing would prove this the case. Picard was basically PilotVader's ability for any ship you put him on.

I like the idea of limited upgrades for alternative formats, but I don't think its better than what we have now. I'd probably limit it as Configuration + 1/2 of available slots for upgrades. There are a few occasions in Star Wars where you see a fully kitted out ship with crew and upgrades (Ghost/Falcon), but overall I think its pretty rare.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think 2 upgrades per ship is to much though to achieve the desired result.

The desired result for who?? Players who think this game should only be about dials and templates??

You would be forcing a lot of players to dump the creativity of listbuilding so you can have totalitarian control over game pieces.

Upgrades aren't this game's weakness; they are it's strength.

9 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

You would be forcing a lot of players to dump the creativity of listbuilding so you can have totalitarian control over game pieces.

He plays a lot of FO, so checks out.

Just now, gennataos said:

He plays a lot of FO, so checks out.

Hey man I play alot of resistance to.

I think people are overreacting and not thinking through how much a restriction like this could open up list building creativity.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Hey man I play alot of resistance to.

🔥 ⚽

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think people are overreacting and not thinking through how much a restriction like this could open up list building creativity.

I see where you're going. I like the idea for a league.

16 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

The desired result for who?? Players who think this game should only be about dials and templates??

Imagine liking the game for the gameplay.

This kills things like scyks, bombers, ordnance boats, gunboats, etc.

It's unnecessary, kills creativity, and doesn't make the game any more fun. Hard pass.

I like flying a fat Chiraneau or Lando or Hera.

I also like flying 5 Tie Interceptors, which had no upgrades at all.

If you wish to restrict all ships as proposed, you also need to redesign pretty much all large ships as well as the previously mentioned ordnance carriers. Resistance bombers, Tie Punishers, etc.

I like to use a pair of Y-wings each with a turret, an astromech and a bomb.

How would that work?

26 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

I like flying a fat Chiraneau or Lando or Hera.

I also like flying 5 Tie Interceptors, which had no upgrades at all.

If you wish to restrict all ships as proposed, you also need to redesign pretty much all large ships as well as the previously mentioned ordnance carriers. Resistance bombers, Tie Punishers, etc.

I like to use a pair of Y-wings each with a turret, an astromech and a bomb.

How would that work?

So short answer the most effective version of many Large Base ships already has minimal upgrades. This wouldnt make them worse necessarily. In hyperspace for instance Han/Leia/Lando with just 1 upgrade and 2 wingmates like Luke or Braylen or 3 xwings is effective. Would help players avoid “upgrade heavy” trap lists of which there are many.

RAC is similar to where all he really needs is Dauntless and the correct wingmates and he is good to go. Yes recently Sloane Rac performed well with some ties, but I can say definitively as someone who ran Sloane Swarm extensively at Coruscant thats not a build or list building creativity that adds much of value to gameplay. Would also still be possible to run Sloane Rac but you would sacrifice dauntless and become vulnerable to blocking again, a net gain to gameplay and counter gameplay.

For Ywings yould would have to choose between turrets or bombs or ordinance. Same as any other ship.

Keep in mind to that this would massively impact aces ability to joust ( besides Kylo and Vader who will joust anyway ), though Vader/Whisper would become vulnerable in other ways having to choose between Passive Sensors and other more critical upgrades.

It also wouldnt immediately promote all generics to top dogs. Cis struts is still 1 pts so suddenly rock counterplay super matters which is a huge deal. And they wouldnt be able to pack massive alpha strikes in along with struts.

There really good boba lists to, that dont pack him to the gills with Maul Slave 1 etc. Fenn Boba Nom Lom as an example. Again lists building would be more creative not less. I think more lists would work at an average level of quality as mass quantities of upgrades per list and ship are driven out of the game

I think the number is a little extreme but I would play such a format.

I think there's a lot of things that aren't restricted that probably should be. Similarly, you should only get a certain number of a particular type of pilot in your list, like the unit type limits in Legion.

note this is all for competitive play which arguably doesn't exist anymore anyway so this may be a moot point*

*in the original meaning of this phrase, as in "we should probably reconvene and discuss this in about a year"

Kylo, Holo, and Talent of choice on Vonreg intensifies. Death to droids and A Wings.

I think it inevitably pushes triple aces, especially with empire. Aside from that, it's counting to 200 with raw ships like Focho, 5X, Howlswarm, Serissu, Colossus Mechanics, etc.

45 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

... how much a restriction like this could open up list building creativity.

Maybe, but my first impression is that every list becomes Ace + Gang Gang Squad or Heavy + Squad Gang Squad. Sure, there's a choice of ace and of gang. Each faction will have a few aces/heavies which work well without upgrades (Leia is great out of the box, IMHO). There will be a choice of swarm ship, somewhat. A lot of them just aren't great.

But I don't think this opens up creativity more than status quo, however. One of the more creative lists I've seen was the Latts/4-LOM/Koshka a while back. That was pretty nifty. Ultimately, I don't think format drives creativity: creative people do. As much as I prefer Hyperspace for the majority competitive format, Extended does have a lot more scope for imagination and potential for creative lists. A lot of that is going to be jank and pretty bad, but that doesn't mean it's not creative.

If folks in a local metagame (or national tournament scene) are all resorting to the same basic combinations of loaded aces or Droid Swarm or whatever, changing the format doesn't make those players more creative: they'll just take the best aces with the most efficient generics, and before long, it'll all get pretty samey.

Flipside is the Polish metagame, where a few folks build lists in really strange ways, to counter the other folks in Poland. There's always odd twists coming out of Poland, more interesting and creative than Northern Virginia or Southern California or whatever.

45 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think people are overreacting and not thinking through how much a restriction like this could open up list building creativity.

As I see it, there are just too many ships--even on the generic level--which kind of need some tools. Usually it's secondary weapons.

• I guess the Scyk works fine without extras since then it's just a solid TIE/fo, but what makes them special is the extra weapons.
• Rebel A-Wings with a missile are probably better than we think. They can do some sweet block and lock and eventually turning around for a well-armed 2nd pass, and might actually be reasonable like this.
• TIE Aggressor was already a joke.
• Y-Wings, per @Gilarius , get hosed. They are a less "complete" ship than something like a TIE/sf. Similar in a lot of ways, but the /sf is designed around not-needing upgrades, but the Y-Wing points to the fact that X-Wing wasn't designed with an upgrade limit in mind.

Maybe if each a single secondary weapon would be exempted, there's a lot more room and scope for the imagination.

39 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I like the idea for a league.

I'm all for folks experimenting with leagues.

39 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Imagine liking the game for the gameplay.

This whole thread kind of reminds me of the "what if X-Wing but with far less dice variance" thread from the other day. I think folks were far too hard on @Wazat for even discussing the concepts, even if I'm not particularly interested in playing most of them.

X-Wing without dice variance, or X-Wing without upgrades, are potentially interesting games. They're also entirely separate games from the one we have now.

42 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Hey man I play alot of resistance to.

I think people are overreacting and not thinking through how much a restriction like this could open up list building creativity.

A single upgrade per ship just doesn't work and makes too many things unplayable. Hence my alternatives, like each ship adds another upgrade to the list.

What about trajectory simulator? Munition failsafe? Delayed fuses? Instinctive aim? There are more, and they require at least two upgrades per ship. And then the problem of several large base pilots that 100% need more than 1 upgrade. Rey and Dash clearly do.

A single upgrade simply doesn't work with the game as it is.

Limited upgrades per list, or a higher maximum per ship like 3 would work and might achieve the same thing.

1 hour ago, Chumbalaya said:

Imagine liking the game for the gameplay.

I like the game for the gameplay, too. But I also like prepping what I bring to the gameplay.

But this thread suggests (and you support) that a "Cake" shouldn't have frosting because when people eat it's because it they like "Cake."

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

how much a restriction like this could open up list building creativity.

Because this is a bit of an oxymoron.

At best, you're just trading one type of creativity for another.

As many people have pointed out, this makes for an nice Format. But the OP as stated espouses that it would be Better For The Game As A Whole.

Boom can change the title to "Could Limiting Upgrades Make X-Wing Fun" and I'll say Yes. As stated, the answer is No.