Will they be the cyborg resurrection of Deathwatch?

How nasty should they be?

I've not seen anything to suggest that the Deathwatch use dreadnoughts..but I can't see why they wouldn't, really. Although they seem to be a small,special forces type unit that tends to travel light, in smaller groups than a regular Marine chapter, the same is true of the Grey Knights, and they use Dreadnoughts.

Perhaps Deathwatch Dreadnoughts are former Deathwatch marines who've fallen in battle, in the same way that regular dreadnoughts are? Or maybe the Deathwatch ship in highly decorated dreadnoughts from other chapters?

One can imagine that a Deathwatch Dreadnought would be highly characterful and interesting...

Lightbringer said:

Ancient, slow to the point of cumbersome, a bit like an Ent in a social situation... A dragon in battle, able to mow down scores of foes

That is an INTERESTING idea. Although the general idea is that the DW is mainly about hit-and-run and commando strikes, it is not inconceivable that some missions really would need more "hammer" and less "scalpel". Dreadnoughts certainly can provide the "hammer".

Picture the following. Chapter Master receives a request for DW deployment. He and his senior officers check who of the eligible Battle-Brothers are available at the moment. Unfortunately all of them are already on missions. Now what? The senior officers are certainly qualified but they can´t leave the Chapter. Instructor-Sergeants are all busy with the new recruits so that leaves them also out of the question. ****.

Then the senior Tech-marine clears his throat. Technically there is one battle-brother that is both qualified and available. His name didn´t show on the DW reserve list because he is normally listed on the Armoury pool. Brother Joshua served three tours in DW before being interned in a Dreadnought after the Battle of Marik`s Folly.

Plus, I seem to recall that the new Stormraven gunship carries a small force of Marines AND a single dreadnought. (I'm not certain, 'cos I don't have my Blood Angels Codex on me, so I could be wrong.)

A force of 5-10 Deathwatch marines would probably find a Stormraven more appropriate than a heavy, cumbersome Thunderhawk, making such joint Deathwatch Marine/Dreadnought deployments more logical...

Lightbringer said:

If I'm recalling correctly, a Stormraven can carry a full squad; and I think it's actually a total of 12 marines in PA, in addition to a dreadnought carried externally for drop. I seem to recall a friend's BA's list including Dante, a Chaplain, 2 squads of Sanguinary Guard and a Furioso Librarian in a single Stormraven.

-=Brother Praetus=-

The thing is... the reason the Grey Knights have dreadnoughts is because they're a "proper" chapter. The Deathwatch isn't. Why would a chapter leave a veteran to fight in a rare and highly prized Dreadnought suit, when they could have that veteran in a Dreadnought.

Plus, as stated, Deathwatch are small, self-contained units. I just don't see a dreadnought working well alongside, what is basically, a spec-ops unit.

Though that all said, wasn't there a DW Dreadnought in one of the stories in "Heroes of the Space Marines", Headhunted i think it was, an infiltration of an ork rok...

MILLANDSON said:

They're only not a "proper" chapter in the sense that they have multiple geneseed strains and recruit from other chapters. As far as we know, in all other respects they are a "proper" chapter.An analogy might be the British SAS, which recruits soldiers from other regiments. These soldiers will have their own regimental traditions, but they are subsumed into the traditions of the SAS, usually (by all accounts) fairly well. The SAS is certainly a "proper" regiment, despite its elite status. They don't lack for equipment, either. If they want artillery, for example, it's attached to their units on a temporary basis.

The Deathwatch are repeatedly described as a "Chapter" for the purposes of organisation, so one would imagine they are a "Chapter" for the purposes of equipment, too. Presumably, they often travel using light strike spacecraft like Gladius Frigates etc. If they can have their own multi-megatonne spacecraft, I don't see why Dreadnoughts are inconceivable. (Although I accept that there is an alternative argument that they utilise Inquisitorial ships instead.)

As for the small, self contained unit argument, again, I don't see why this is such a problem. I've already set out that the Stormraven gunship is ideal for 5-12 man Deathwatch squads, and that it is specifically designed to carry a Dreadnought, which presumably would be an excellent and flexible heavy support platform for a variety of missions. I'm not saying it's suitable for EVERY mission, simply that if you're a 5 man Deathwatch squad watching over a region the size of an Imperial Sector, you'd want the extra mission flexibility a Dreadnought could provide.

I am going with Lightbringer over this - Dreadnoughts would be an option in DW missions where the extra firepower, massive close combat potential and general environmental trashing capabilities would be needed. There seems to be no reason why, given the specialized role of the DW, any potential weapon, no matter how unsubtle would be denied them. Granted that you would not take a Dreadnought on a reconaissance mission, or one involving any modicum of stealth, but if there was a violent spearpoint strike needed with extreme prejudice, then that would be a different matter.

I do also agree with the point made by UncleArkie though - that a Dreadnought is a pretty one dimensional character in terms of role-play - unless you wanted to limit your vocabulary to "Die Xenos Scum!" or "Back to War!" or "For the Emperor!" - actually, isn't this true of all Space Marines anyway?

I would see a Dreadnought in a support NPC role perhaps, rather than a viable character for play - but I can understand why playing something so powerful as a one-off might be really appealing.

Lightbringer said:

The problem I see with dreadnoughts in the Deathwatch is one of proprietary rights. If a Marine from the Ultramarines is incapacitated while serving with the Deathwatch and subsequently encased within a dreadnought is he an Ultramarines dreadnought or a Deathwatch dreadnought? Does his service with the Deathwatch become permanent? Aside from that, I have no issues with the idea. I'm sure there are uses for Dreadnoughts within the Deathwatch, if they in fact do have them.

There is the glaring fact that they've never been mentioned in any of the lore, but then again it's also never been said that they don't exist.

Atheosis said:

Yes, there is an issue here over proprietary rights, I accept that. Perhaps when a marine swears his oaths to join the Deathwatch, he agrees to do so "unto the point of death and beyond" or something like that? Thus if he is critically injured and would die unless placed in a dreadnought, he becomes, in effect, the "property" of the Deathwatch chapter? Or perhaps Dreadnoughts from other Chapters are treated just like "normal" marines, and do "tours" with the Deathwatch...That's pure speculatioon on my part, though!

Well Velvetears gives a Canon source for an example of a Deathwatch Dreadnought, though I must admit it's not one I'm familiar with... Can you give us any more detail on that one, Velvetears?

The following link give a brief description and a list of members of Deathwatch.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deathwatch

Under Dreadnought, there is one Cryon listed from the Lamenters Chapter. That line is referenced to a story called Headhunted by Steve Parker, taken from Heroes of the Space Marines.

While I cannot validate this, the Lexicanum has proven fairly accurate in the past.

Ziek

Its a tough call, really. Theres very little genuine information available on the Deathwatch, and I tend to take Black Library products with a pinch of salt at the best of times.

Personally, I'd say that they do have 'em. The Deathwatch has a rotating membership, this much is fact. But how practical is that in the long run? I've always imagined that there are certain marines who display such an affinity for the work of the DW that they become permanent members. These are the marines most likely to become dreadnoughts within the chapter, rather than their corpses being shipped back to their chapter for proper burial.

I'd imagine the question will be answered once and for all once once the book gets released; this really will be the most we've ever seen on the third chamber militant. My expectation would be that they get all the fun stuff you'd expect from a 'normal' chapter, and more beside. And whilst I sincerely doubt that they would be playable, I'd imagine that it has a lot more to do with the fantastic amount of power they possess, and that they spend a lot of time napping. Nothing inherently one dimensional about a 'nought; don't forget that Bjorn the Fell Handed actually leads armies.

Seraphael said:

I'd agree with that, Seraphael. There does seem to be a bit of an assumption that Dreadnoughts are a kind of shallow, Hulk-like war stomper:- "Raaaargh! Dreadnought Smash! Dreadnought kill puny Orks! Dreadnought tired of speaking in third person all the time! Raaaaargh!" There have been a couple of background pieces that support this view, (I recall a VERY old White Dwarf article where a Marine Dreadnought pilot recounts the destruction of an Ork Dreadnought in childlike words of one syllable) but at the same time a lot of Dreadnoughts are often former chapter masters and officers: I don't see any reason why these guys wouldn't be fully compos mentis and capable of operating at the same intellectual level as they did when they were "alive."

Maybe in some Dreadnought installations the occupant suffers brain damage due to the trauma of their "death" and resurrection, rendering them relatively simplistic, but one would imagine that in just as many cases the Dreadnought operates with his brains relatively intact.

They're almost certainly not appropriate as characters, though, I'd agree with that. But they could play all sorts of other archetypes in a campaign: wise mentors, powerfull allies, even cunning behind the scenes manipulators and political advisors...

RedMike said:

Yes. Consider this lineup for a "combined arms" DW team: 3-4 linemen ( includes Commander ), a Librarian ( communications/support ), a Tech-Marine ( sapper/engineer ), an Apothecary ( medic ) and one Dreadnought ( firesupport /heavy assault ). A fully self-sufficient cell in a squad sized formation that can operate with fairly minimal transportation needs. Depending on the mission requirements this small detachment can pack a respectable amount of fire- and/or assault power.

Lightbringer said:

Agreed. If I remember correctly, in the original Deathwing shortstory I think they presented a Dreadnought which was clearly an ancient wiseman. (This was the period when the Dark Angels were recruiting from 'plains people' much like Native Americans)

The epilogue has the main character retiring from active duty as a combat Marine in order to act as leader and spiritual guide to the plains people after the destruction of the Genestealer cult and he is supported in his choice by one of the Chapter's dreadnoughts who is clearly able-spirited and quite eloquent.

But as a player characted they're just a bit too 'out there' to play session after session, if only from the practical side; little or no sneaking, no entering buildings without making a tank-sized hole, difficult social interacting, no climbing or swimming or mounting a small vehicle etc etc.

I think they will make great NPC's of epic proportions, perhaps a great one-off as a playable character for a guest player and such but I wouldn't want to play them. It'd almost be like playing a tank with an AI...

Meph said:

Chatty dreads are pretty much a staple of the fluff. These are mighty heroes after all, revered for their tactical knowledge and wisdom as much as anything else. Take Bjorn again. He's now so ancient that he is only woken once every thousand years to fight, when the need is greatest. But they still wake him up at the turn of each century, so that he can impress the cubs with tales of fighting alongside Russ himself. In fact, let me quote some fluff from the current Space Wolves codex. Here's a piece on a dreadnought reliving the time the Primarch left him behind to run the chapter;

Despite the fact that he has relived it a hundred times or more, when Bjorn tells of that day it is clear he still struggles with intense feelings of rejection and bitterness. All who hear his tale know that Russ' parting act bothers Bjorn far more than the tale of his own tragic fall to a warp-beast with a thousand maws, or the days his spirit spent roaming Morkai's realm during his torturous interment into an adamantium sarcophagus.

From the day of Russ' disappearance, Bjorn has given his all to prove his worthiness in the eyes of his missing Primarch, first as warrior, then as Wolf Lord, Dreadnought, and finally to this day as the spiritual and moral compass for the entire Chapter. Only the High Wolf Priest Ulrik knows Bjorn well enough to suspect that he still craves the benediction of his once-father, and that within Bjorn's indestructible and immensely potent war-form lies a mind that will know no peace until he fights alongside his Primarch once more.

Now, does that honestly sound like a character lacking depth of personality? As far as PCs go, I'd be surprised if I didn't let someone play a dreadnought, for a little while. Character just sacrificed himself heroically? Good for you. Only fifteen minutes left of the session, so go put the kettle on, theres a good chap. Come back with tea and I've got a terrific surprise for you...

Seraphael said:

It would make sense that the Deathwatch could requisition Dreadnoughts in special circumstances - though they are considered more of a chapter's property than regular battle brothers. I wouldn't be too surprised to see that you could have them in game as advisors, mentors, or heavy support for dangerous missions. It seems there's a precedent, though I'm very curious as to the logistics involved in Deathwatch Dreadnoughts.

Since Dreadnought sarcophagi are the property of the chapter, however, and are used and reused over the ages (In the fluff, the Blood Angels have some of the oldest Dreadnoughts. This refers to the chassis - not the pilot. Bjorn the Fell-Handed, on the other hand, is the oldest 'surviving' Dreadnought pilot.) I would be very surprised to see the Deathwatch maintaining a supply of Dreadnought chassis. It just wouldn't make sense for them. If Dreads are allowed in Deathwatch, they will most likely already be entombed and ready to rock and roll. They won't be the brothers falling in service to the Deathwatch being turned into DW-specific dreads.

See, I pretty much disagree with that. Whilst other chapters might not have a problem loaning out individual chapter members, each dread chassis is a limited resource, and the entombed marine is a mighty hero of the chapter. Obviously it would depend on the chapter in question, but I can't imagine many of them being happy to pass them on to some fancy pants organisation so they can get blown up thousands of light years from home.

My thoughts are rather that certain marines join the Deathwatch as permanent members; those that go on to lead the chapter, and train the recruits in assorted xenos hunting tomfoolery. Its much easier to imagine that the DW possesses a number of its own dreadnoughts and that said permanent Deathwatch members are the ones who end up piloting them. I do agree that most marines who die in service to the DW would not be suitable, as they'd likely be shipped home. Their service is supposed to be temporary, after all.

'Course, this is all just speculation at this stage! And lord knows I've been wrong before...

There is always the dreadnought character from Soul Hunter ...

Maybe Dreadnoughts are just waiting for Deathwatch " Ascension ?"

Kage

Seraphael said:

Marines have an almost religious devotion to their chapter and their primarch. I dont really see them giving that up to go serve the deathwatch permanently. What would they get out of the deathwatch that would make them stay?

Jude Order said:

A sense of duty? A recognition that their skills are put to better use in the DW than in their parent chapter? The respect of their peers from other chapters? Esprit de Corps? The prestige of being in a truly elite unit? The chance to repeatedly personally make history? The chance to have your name whispered to the Emperor? Better tea breaks? Improved pension plan? A corner office?

Lightbringer said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the Chapter Master and officers of the Chapter probably did exactly that (as GW will want to sell some Death Watch special characters at some point).

I am going to throw this out there.

The Chapter Master, command staff, and those who would need to be with Deathwatch on a permanent basis could be draw from the two unknown legion successors. Since they never had Primarchs they may be more flexible in their devotion to their chapter and more willing to abandon them, so to speak, and take up the Deathwatch as their true chapter.

Then again there may be some Astartes who find a home in Deathwatch. They become devoted to the cause and decide to become permanent members. They go through some process of leaving their chapter, where they are recorded as either MIA or KIA, and they take up Deathwatch as their true chapter. The gene seed they carry is harvested and kept by their home chapter and they can then remove themselves to Deathwatch where they would receive new war gear.