Hi,

I'm new here and I need your help.

My friends and I are playing the Heirs of Blood Campaign. We are at the mission Shadowfall Mountain Encounter 2.

The rules of the mission say:

..Each time a hero is defeated by an attack performed by Kadlasar, the overlord may place 1 of that hero's hero tokens in his play area. At the start of each overlord turn, the overlord may place 1 hero token in his play area for each hero that is knocked out. The overlord cannot take a second hero token belonging to the same hero before he has 1 hero token belonging to each hero.

Now this is what happened:

1) Kadlasar inflicted to Leroic more damage tokens than his health, but Andira ( soul reaper class ) used Spirit Link ( Exhaust this card when another hero within 3 spaces of you would be knocked out. Discard any amount of essence. That hero recovers an equal amount of "Hearts" instead ).
So, the overlord is sure he deserves the hero token because the hero was defeated and then before being knocked out he was stood up by Spirit Link . Like being defeated and being knocked out are 2 different phases and could be applied skills between them.
In the "Rules of Play" of Descent 2nd there are no mentions of phases of these 2 words. At page 15 paragraph "Defeated" it is written " When a hero is defeated, he is knocked out. " So like it is the same thing and they are simultaneous, they are not phases. So Andira avoid Leroic to be defeated/knocked out and the overlord cannot gain the hero token. Who is right?!

Thank you for help.

Any effect which triggers "when a hero would be knocked out" and causes them to recover hearts instead prevents the hero from being knocked out (or defeated, since they are the same thing in this instance).

So no, the overlord would not receive a hero token for Leoric in this example, since he is not knocked out or defeated - he would be, but the Soul Reaper saves him at the last minute.

40 minutes ago, Xyphistor said:

Any effect which triggers "when a hero would be knocked out" and causes them to recover hearts instead prevents the hero from being knocked out (or defeated, since they are the same thing in this instance).

So no, the overlord would not receive a hero token for Leoric in this example, since he is not knocked out or defeated - he would be, but the Soul Reaper saves him at the last minute.

Thank you, Xyphistor.

What about this thread in BGG?

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2382198/soul-reaper-spirit-link-and-lava-terrain

Do you think he Is wrong ?

I stand corrected. My assumption was that Knocked out occured first, followed by Defeated - but it appears to be the other way around.

So ignore everything I said the first time 😛

On 4/24/2020 at 9:58 PM, mindulino said:

... Like being defeated and being knocked out are 2 different phases and could be applied skills between them. ..

That's the key bit - Stalwart is a perfect example:

" You gain +2 Health. When you are defeated, you may immediatly move up to your Speed and perform an attack with a Melee weapon. After the attack is resolved, you are knocked out. "

That clearly shows that defeated and knocked out are different triggers, and happen in that sequence. Usually they happen one after the other and therefore are essentially the same thing, but in the case that anything interrupts the sequence (Stalwart, Spirit Link, One Fist's heroic feat etc) the sequence becomes relevant.

So, the OL pick the token ?

Yes, Leoric is defeated by Kadlasar's attack, the Overlord gets his hero token, but then he is saved from being knocked out by Spirit Link and no 'knocked out' effects trigger (eg master Wraith's Reaper).

But 'A Hero defeated Is knocked out'.

We can say that the defeated condition is not complete, as the hero is not knocked out?

well, as shown above, things can happen between being defeated and being knocked out... they usualy don't but in these corner cases they do.

Spirit Link case:

• A hero eats the dust (suffer damage up to health)

• He “would be defeated”

• He IS DEFEATED (by having damage up to health) ---> OL get the token

• He “would be knocked out” >>> (Spirit Link triggers) >>> the hero recover some hearts, so he is no longer defeated (It was un-defeated before being knocked out) 🧟‍♂️

• He IS NOT KNOCKED OUT (no suffer wound and fatigue, removing conditions, drawing OL, in that order or not)

Divine Light/Lifeline case: (skills that trigger before being defeated)

• A hero eats the dust (suffer damage up to health)

• He “would be defeated” >>> (Divine Light or Lifeline Triggers) >>> the hero recover hearts

• He IS NOT DEFEATED (since wounds tokens are not up to health)

It seems the Descent Guru's are not around there for the moment to answer.
So quickly I advise to take a look to a part of their insights they have left in the CRRG .. 😉

can be found here amoung other places : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1729458/community-rules-reference-guide-crrg/page/1

Defeated and Knocked Out steps are p.13

By the way OL only draws a card only when a hero is knocked out and his figurine is removed from the board .. not before.

This is one of those cases where I'd really appreciate developer input. Spirit Link feels like it's intended to prevent the defeat of the hero (it's a rescue move), but not clearly; it's worded as "when he would be knocked out," so the "instead" applies to "KO". It could very well just be a case of abilities not being worded consistently, but as an example, look at the prophet's "Lifeline". Note the "When a hero would be defeated ... ...instead."

Unfortunately, there are (as already noted above" a few specific examples where "defeat" and "KO" are seperable. Therefore, it's unclear if Spirit Link prevents defeat, or just KO. In my opinion, the CRRG doesn't contradict this stance.