Hello everyone

I was wondering... If there is any possibility to get machine trait without being a tech-priest/explorator? I've got a concept of character who is something like "cyborg" (in 40k style of course.) but ****... I haven't seen any legal way to get something like machine trait or some of those skiitari implants.

Regards

Rikeran said:

What you want is The Flesh Is Weak talent/trait purchased as an elite advancement. Just convince your GM with some backstory and agree upon the cost.

Well I tried to convice him but It didn't help. He said that if I want it, it's fine - as long it's legal. For him "Prerequisites: Mechanicus Implant" is not legal if I'm not an explorer Anyway I suppose that there is no other way, right?

Edit: Btw, machine trait armor bonuses stack with armor?

Yes, they stack with armour.

I would allow a character to take the Flesh is Weak but they'd better have a good backstory or work with the GM to create a situation which so epic, so enjoyable for the entire group and would involve such sacrifice (or heresy) that he would deseerve it.

In costs I would say...at least 1.000xp and a permanent Fate Point since he gives up a part of his humanity.
This fate point would be allowed to be spent in the sacrifice.

If it improves the story, is not meant for power gaming...I'm game...

Example....
A Forge World Arch Militant (Skitarii) sacrifices himself during an attack on a Forge World, his body lies in ruins and his very life is slowly bleeding away.
The Rogue trader pleads the Magus to do something, perhaps in return for an endeavour.
The Magus decides to save the forge Worlder and show him the mercy of the Omnisiah...

The players spends 1.000xp (the fate point he already did spend) and gains the Flesh is Weak on 1

The group had the oppertunity to play out an epic battle on a Forge World surrounded by the Avatars of the Machine Gods, the Rogue Trader player had a great dramatic scene pleading for the life of his loyal bodyguard and the AM player gained the Machine Trait.

Rikeran said:

"armour dosn't stack." unless noted otherwise and in this case I can't find anything stating it does stack but there already is enough discussion about this in the forums

DH has an elite advance package called cyber rebuild/reborn or smth like it (Inquisitors Handbook) which is effectively giving you the machine trait 2 with additional benefits and drawbacks... if everything fails maybe arrange for a cyber ressurection with your gm

Cybernetic Ressurection works! Thank you guys

Armour does not stack, true, but Armour Points can (Flak Armour behind a brick wall).

The rule states that stacking armour does not help....it says nothing about stacking AP.
In my humble opinion the inner strengthening of the Machine Trait works perfectly with armour...

I'm pretty sure armor from the machine trait stacks with worn armor as the Battle Servitor p 374-275. Is listed as machine trait 4, and armored plate for an armor total of 6.

My real issue with the poster is that this seem to be an attempt at power gaming. The only reason to get the machine trait is for the armor and various resistances. If you want to be a cyborg there are cybernetic limbs, lungs, heart, eyes, and the like. Then there is the cranial armor, and subskin armor as well. If PC starts with machine 2 (which btw is a rank 4 talent for a tech priest) it's an easy aquisition get cranial armor and a moderate aquisition gets you subskin. Which means the PC is 3-4 points of armor every where before any armor they are wearing. With a good roll for power armor you are talking 11-12 point of armor or with carapace 9-10 points. Now imagine a choice mutation like hulking, feels no pain, or tough hide... (My PCs would power game, but that just means the other side power games, and I'm better at it.)

Dalnor Surloc said:

I can't find Armor Plating in Rogue Trader specifically, but per Dark Heresy , page 329 "the creature is encased in armored plating, increasing it's Armor Points by 2 to all locations."

In this particular case, Armor Plating sounds like it does indeed stack with other armor; as we typically see with combat servitors and their Machine Trait . Not sure about Machine Trait stacking with other armor, though. Machine does have the benefit of its AP counting against ongoing fire damage, something armor usually does not protect against once you are ignited.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I'd say "the Machine trait and Armour Plating stack, Machine Trait doesn't stack with normal armour, and Armour Plating can only be used with the Machine Trait". Basically, as with all other armour, if you had the Machine trait and normal armour, only the highest armour for a given location would count, they wouldn't stack.

MILLANDSON said:

I mostly agree. I personally would let the Armor Plating stack with worn armor as well; but Machine Tr ait would only stack with the Armor Plating . You would; however, still get the benefit of the Machine Trait AP against ongoing fire if you found yourself lacking sufficient grace to avoid immolation when confronted by the Heretek's combat servitor with the heavy flamer. Just my opinion, though.

I'm surprised that no one seems to have ever asked Sam or Ross about this; as well as Mack now, for something official on the matter. Think we should?

-=Brother Praetus=-

Can't help to ask! But yea, your idea (Armour Plating being the only thing that stacks with any/all armour) works. As for the fire, I'd take that for granted, since only the highest armour value counts, so against persistant fire attacks, the Machine trait (and any armour plating) armour would be higher than the Zero armour points from whatever other armour you're wearing.

The rule about "armour doesn't stack" is all in the equipment part of the armoury, and it talks only about "pieces of armour" and "armour worn". Machine armour is not a piece of armour, it's an upgrade to the users body, more akin to the mutation "tough hide" than carapace armour.

Similarly the text for the machine trait does not specify that only AP gained from the machine trait protects against fire. It simply states that "their armour points apply towards fire damage"

So it's not that clear cut looking at RAW.

In any case, why debate RAW or RAI when taking the view that "asking can't help". I agree somewhat, if I disagree with the developers on how a rule should be interpreted for fun and balance all an official ruling does is inform me what is a houserule and what is not. Not that important.

Balance and fun is more important, and yeah, it might seem a bit unbalanced to give explorators additional resistance to damage. But consider two things: 1) Being resilient and tough is one of the tech priests schticks along with "metal arms" and "gadgets". 2) It's often going to be the main defense against getting hurt. Explorators have lousy agility progression and don't get dodge +20 until rank 7, additionally there's the machinator array that lowers agility and such.

I'm not sure allowing the machine armour to stack would upset game balance that much. Conversly, if you don't let it stack there's not much point in taking the flesh is weak more than once. One level of the flesh is weak does lots of other neat stuff, but more levels just increase the mostly useless armour points you get. Protects against fire is not that big a deal either, toughness bonus does that too.

I'd propose you let the flesh is weak stack with normal armour but not subdermal armour plating and the other "implant" type armours. Worn armour doesnt' stack with worn armour, implanted armour doesn't stack with implanted armour, seems reasonable and consistent. It limits the usefulness of "the flesh is weak" for gaining armour but doesnt obliterate it. Also, it makes sense even if we don't look at it from game balance perspective. How exactly does one put "subdermal armour plating" on a machine? How does a bionic heart make a difference in someone with more or less "bionic everything" already in place?

Consider Joe the arch militant and Hexagon π the explorator. Joe get's all the armour implants he can get his hands on at best quality, for a grand total of arms and legs +3, head +2 and torso +5. Hexagon π on the other hand get's the flesh is weak (4) for a grand total of +4 everywhere. Doesn't seem that bad to me. The explorator is clearly better off if they're competing at taking bullets in their underwear. But not by much.

Nothing a Melta Gun or a Plasma gun on high doesn't cure....that or a MP Lascannon...

We decided that armor doesn't stack, it's just not needed and makes more problem for players and gm than this is worth. True, that halved agility is not cool, but remember that after cyber ressurection some stats are higher (BS for example) so it's fine. Something for something. Will it work, we shall see.

IMHO, it makes more sense for the Machine Trait to stack with armor. The rule of not stacking armor exists mostly to prevent cheap, easy and cheesy ways of upping your resilience. Machine Trait for a PC doesn't IMHO qualify as either cheap, easy or cheesy.

I ask this question of armor stacking to Mack since it has come up in my group and this is what he told me

"Machine does indeed stack with the armor worn by a Techpriest. Natural armor works the same way, however your GM may rule that only the highest takes hold if your armor values get out of hand!"

As the rules goes it stacks, but it is just up to you and your group on how you want to do it

Khorne-ucopia said:

The Machine Cult approves of this ruling. Clearly a sign that Omnissiah cares for his priesthood.

Done a bit of reading regarding the stacking armor and machine trait.

RAW is pretty much no, they dont stack.. HOWEVER... The flesh is weak gives robotic/bionic replacements to limbs etc.

Bionic replacements do however give you +2 EB to resist wounding. Hence any level of Flesh is Weak effectively gives you 2 points extra damage resist.

ie. Flack Vest + Enf. Light Carapace + EB 4 = 9 points damage reduction.

Flack Vest + Flesh is Weak 1-4 + Enf. Light Carapace + EB 4 = 11 Points damage reduction.

Technically not a stack, but in actually; well.

Glory to the Machine.

Quick Edit (sorry).

Meant TB not EB.

The only feasable reason i can see to take Flesh is Weak 2-4 is for fire damage mitigation, as FiW1 is sufficiant to grant +2 TB damage mitigation.

I thought this was settled long ago with word from the devs that trait / bionic armor stacked with worn armor.

Morangias said:

There is also the Cybernetic Resurrection Elite Advance Package in The Inquisitor's Handbook for Dark Heresy (I don't have my books handy, so I beg forgiveness if I have been inaccurate in any way.) The Mechanicus can apply this process to any character, with the only pre-requisite being that the person has suffered severe damage.

I'm rather surprised nobody has brought this up yet, but the Augmenticist career from Into the Storm is exactly what you are looking for.

It allows you take a bunch of stuff normally reserved for Tech-Priests/Explorators, including a talent called "Physical Perfection" for a max of three times. It's basically the same as one level of The Flesh is Weak, and it costs 500 xp. (p74-75)

llsoth said:

Ilsoth, i think you missed my point. I was stating that the rules as written clarify the point without the need for dev involvement.

Players who dont use the net as a resource, or who only have access to the book can find the info they need. All else fails, house rules.

As to the matter being settled, i hardly think so. So the devs say yes, it stacks.

It has yet to be added to the errata; it is yet to be stated that if the stacking takes it above 7, you do/do not get the -30% penalty associated.

I for one love the stack ruling, means FiW 4 with say.. Enf. Light Carapace gives you 11 points of armor/damage mitigation before TB.

With an (assumed average) of 5TB, thats 16 points of mitigation.

Granted, you dont get the SB etc, but it beats the crap out of power armor.

Id like to comment vs Termy armor, but i only have access to core rules, but given Light vs Power Armor increase, im assuming Termy Armor is within the 10-12 range.

Seconding the incredulity that nobody has brought up Augmenticist. It's astounding how many times these forums go for a round peg for a square hole. Screw the Flesh is Weak as an elite advance. Go for Augmenticist.