Stag Lord said:

Stag Lord said:

Targ's draw rocks. Not sure what kind of Targ deck you are playing, but I hardly even use recursion anymore. When I was up in MN, I played a few games with Nate while he used a Targ deck. Maegi Crone was drawing him 2-3 cards per turn. Twn2dn up in DC placed second at that regional with a Targ deck that I believe could also draw cards quite well. I've learned from those that challenge public perception.

I have a Greyjoy deck that draws 1-2 cards per turn and doesn't have a single copy of Fishmongers nor does it play Summer, and only runs one copy of LIV.

When I won the MN regional using a Lanny deck it wasn't draw that won me games. Heck, with Fear of Winter being played so often, draw often was irrelevant. It was REPEAT control. Black cells, AGH, Castellan, Flogged in Chained, etc, etc. I would often go turn after turn and only play ONE card from my hand but lock down three or four of their characters during that round.

It is very much perception that Lanny's draw is light years ahead of everyone. It is not reality.

Maegi is a three cost 1 STR ally. Um.......

I'd be interested in seeing exactly what Syd was using at Kubla in his Martell Melee deck, but I know for sure he was running at least 2 GTM OOH. I've even played around with using Alliance and GTM in other houses, including Martell.

That said, I don't really want to see Lanni get nerfed any more, and certainly don't want to see GTM made neutral (barf). I really don't mind that Lanni has an easy time drawing, or even more gold. It's Neddly, and I'd rather see goodies to help the other houses combat Lanni's draw/control.

My thoughts for each house up against Lanni:

Stark - Will easily be able to kill off the table, but they always have trouble with cards in hand after Valar etc. I'd personally really like to see a real hand reset. Something like Wildfire for your hand, or even something like Bounty of the Relm that isn't one sided and hit's all hands. Let's see, "When revealed, each player must choose up to 2 cards in their hand. All other cards are discarded. Then each player may put the top 4 cards from his or her deck into their hand." I guess every house could benefit from something like this, not just Stark.

Bara - Can get going a lot faster than Lanni, but never seems to be able to finish things off. Perhaps a wee bit of draw that synergizes with Bara rush? Something like an event that says "Challenges: Play before any challenges are initiated this round. Until the end of the phase, each time one of your characters claims power for renown, you may also draw a card."

GJ - I think GJ already matches well against Lanni. The have the speed to get out early, the military and saving power to keep characters out, cancels to suffocate draw, and the location control to hit Lanni's power locations.

Targ - Honestly, I've never played Targ in competition, so I'm not really sure what they could use.

Martell - Martell is already pretty good. I think they could use a couple of solid unbroken 2 STR characters, and a little bit more unbroken icon manipulation. I wouldn't mind seeing either the Maester from ITE that knelt to draw one card (Dornish Alchemist?), or the Maester from WED that let you add or remove an Icon for 1 influence (Student of Subtlety?).

Stag Lord said:

~ally is only a bad trait on secondary draw cards in lanni, don'cha know!

Stag Lord said:

Try her with a Poisoned Wine. You start shutting down challenges and drawing cards at the same time.

Or simply yet, don't try her. Nate and Dan are clearly winning with other strategies. No skin off my back.

Come on...seriously. Compared to Tommen? If you don't think he's not light year's more effciient as a draw engine - we're just never going to agree.

How did Dan do in the match against Lannister, by the way?

Maegi - solid card. X2 in all my Targ decks. Still not buying that she lesses Lannister's "draw dominance".

Dan played Erick. Erick is the best player in the game. He hasn't deviated from Lannister in over a year. I actually have enough confidence in Erick that I think he could have won with many of the decks he has. To my that wasn't a "lanny" win. That was an Erick win.

Dobbler said:

When I won the MN regional using a Lanny deck it wasn't draw that won me games. Heck, with Fear of Winter being played so often, draw often was irrelevant. It was REPEAT control. Black cells, AGH, Castellan, Flogged in Chained, etc, etc. I would often go turn after turn and only play ONE card from my hand but lock down three or four of their characters during that round.

I can attest to the truth of the repeat control ability being what allowed Dobbler to win at the MN Regionals. However, I do believe that the extra draw did allow that machine to keep rolling as well by making sure the right cards were in hand to fuel that lock down.

Ok: so it doens't count when the top players play Lannister and win wiht them? It doesn't say something about what people are choosing to run? Look at the chicago finals...

I honestly don't know what else to say here. Nothing you have posted has in any way made me re-think the suppsoiton that Lannister enjoys "draw dominance". Which is what the topic is about.

Stag Lord said:

Stag Lord said:

Stag Lord said:

And here's the problem! Have you even tried her in a deck?! Why don't you actually try something before just saying that it sucks?! Maybe then you would realize that sometimes cards are better than they appear.

Stag Lord said:

But why aren't we talking about ways to beat lannister without giving everyone thirty draw cards? I mean you can't be saying that its impossible to beat lannister right now. Its clearly been done, look at the CA regional! I just don't understand why everyone is just bitching about the problem, but offering no solutions. My Bara deck has been beating lannister consistently and you know how many cards it draws a turn? zero. actually it sometimes draws a card with renly, but other than that, zero. Sure Lanni has a huge advantage by drawing cards and having tons of gold to play the cards. However, since when does advantage equal auto win?

Stag Lord said:

That's the whole point of perception vs reality. If the top players believe it best, then they play with it. So can you honestly differentiate between house and player? But what happens when those same best players use a different house? Or what happens when they aren't at a regional? Lets look at the regionals that did and did not include an ex-champion. Well, MN regional, I am an ex champion and used Lannister. I won. Chicago had Casey, an ex champion who won, and he use Lannister. DC had Erick, an ex champion who won, and he used Lannister. But lo and behold, there was no ex champion at California, and Lannister didn't make the final game?

Anyways, I will not be using Lannister at the Missouri regional. But I will have a deck that draws well. I have challenged Erick to deviate from Lannister at the NYC regional. But considering my lack of persuasion on these boards, who knows if he will.

So while my words may not convince you here, hopefully my results will.

Staton said:

If you're going to call me put publicly - do me the courtesy of reading my posts. see above where I said: Maegi is in all my Targ decks x 2. And has been since the moment she saw print. She's halfway decent draw - but wouldn't make the cut in a Lannister deck.

@ Dobbs: good luck with that.

I'm sure you'll do fine - but my money would still be on the Lannisters - since they still dominate in draw.

Yeah I didn't see that post before I posted. Sorry about that. But my other point still stands. The fact that lanni has the best draw is no in contention by me. Although the gap has closed pretty narrowly between lanni and martell. However, that doesn't mean that draw out of other houses is sh*tty. Its only sh*tty compared to lanni's draw. But why compare it to lanni draw? Does it work great in your house? It must since there are two of them in every targ deck you make! And I'm sure you win plenty of games against lanni. So why not post about the reasons you beat lanni for the people who aren't winning games against them?

its also funny that you guys get further and further away from the main premesis. Crone is 3 gold and needs something else to happen. for 3 gold lanni can get tommen and GTM, still has devious intentions sitting in its hand oh and if it is feeling the gap closing can throw in 5 other in house cards, a neutral location that goes perfectly with its theme, and a number of other options if it so chooses.

Yes other houses are getting draw, agreed on that a long time ago. Yes those other houses should use draw. No the gap is not closed, because lanni still does it better, still does it more consistiently, and can do it so many different ways.

Dobs you keep going back to its not draw that wins for lanni its card a-z that they repeat. I agre that card a-z is really good, but when you add all the easy draw you get to see card a-z more often, more reliable and the turn you really need it.

Lars said:

Yes, the Crone does need other cards, but it also can draw more than one, sometimes all three in a turn and still participate in a challenge. Seriously, I use it (after getting it used against me!), and have found my Targ deck draws just as well as my Lanny. And my Martell deck does too. My Greyjoy deck is close, but doesn't need quite as much draw.

THAT is the point of the thread. Draw. And my experience over the past months is that the draw "gap" has closed significantly. Which it has. Otherwise my Martell deck and Targ deck would not be keeping up. Which they do.

Stag Lord said:

I would hazard a guess that she wouldn't be played out of Lannister because she requires characters to be reduced to 0 STR. Something that Lannister hasn't had in force since the WES/I&F days.

To the other side, why does the gap have to close entirely? I really don't believe everything should be exactly equal in draw or any other aspect of the game. If it were, then we'd just ban all the cards that mention draw for any house and draw 5 during the draw phase. How boring.

I'm a bit lost on the entirety of the location hate only helps Lannister and Stark argument. With the sort of reduction and alternate ways of getting things into play that Baratheon has been getting, I would think that it benefits them greatly.

Agreed: this contention in this thread is about draw - nothing else.

Your meta feels the gap has closed. i disagree. Maegi is decent draw for Targ - but she costs more and gets nuked quicker - especially by Lannister (varys + Oakheart)

I'll concede Martell can come **** close with reveal to matching Lanni - again: I saw that coming as soon as their box came out, given what was in the CPs.

But other than Martell, i think there is still a huge gap between the other four Houses and Lannister.

And no Staton - I have only defeated one Lanni Shadows deck in teh past six months - and that was with a Baratheon rush deck. Even the noobs in my meta are winning with Lanni shadows.

bloodycelt said:

I am not really a an of this type of hypothetical theory crafting but for Targ?

With Street Waif recursion and Red Keep in the environment, you can't reliably prevent Targ from having influence if the Targ player wants influence on the table. You just aren't ever getting rid of the Red Keep and in a Targ deck using influence 1 gold a turn to bring it back out of Shadows is more efficient than the player spending cards to keep it going back into Shadows.

Stag Lord said:

OK, so you're saying that anyone can win with Lanni shadows. Yet, I have won plenty of games against lanni shadows in the past WEEK! with different houses. Hell I beat one with a GJ deck! So am I just that much better of a player than you? I don't think so.

~In fact, I know Staton isn't that good of a player.

LaughingTree said:

frozen solid red keep...

price of war your 2 x summer seas.

and its not like lanni and stark dont have a myriad of ways to keep the street waif from being used... and remember, the opponent chooses what goes in your hand.

Right now... location control still does require some focus, but if they ramp it up so tossing it in is easy then that 1 gold per turn to bring the red keep back is 1 gold less you can spend on keeping characters on the board. Also the initial 3 gold is a lot to spend on a non character.

bloodycelt said:

You can't Frozen Solid the Red Keep; it is No Attachments.

Also, usually if Summer Sea is discard pile it gets returned when Street Waif is used since opponent would usually rather give back Summer Sea than say Flame-Kissed or a character...

Staton said:

There is a logical fallacy here, just because a card appears in a deck x2 or even x3 does not mean it is a good or efficient card, it may simply be the best available option out of a range of mediocre options. I'm not saying Maegi Crone is a mediocre option, but she is situational and requires support to work at all, let alone work reliably every turn in the way that any of Lannister's permanent draws do.

The gap has narrowed significantly, and by that I mean almost no draw to speak of for several houses to some draw cards that are playable for every house, but all of which are less varied and less efficient than Lannister's. If the distance is 100 miles, closing the gap by 30-55 miles is significant... but still loses the race significantly.

Martell is close, that I think everyone can agree on.

Lannister draw and gold equals reliable character control. That shouldn't be anything anyone disagrees with. They can draw enough cards and put enough into play that my slow grinding down their character control cards or burst ability to remove several in a turn buys me little breathing room since so much is replaced that very next marshalling phase.

Lannister is not unbeatable, we all know this, though I think we can see that no other House can reliably beat as many house's top builds as Lannister Hyper Kneel or Shadows can. If we are playing odds Lannister is going to be the favorite. This is unlikely to last, but it seems to be the truth.

As to why Lannister is winning, saying Champions are playing is valid... but the question is why are so many champions playing it and is it the house that made them champions to begin with? See how these questions suddenly beg the question, are they champions because of Lannister or is Lannister the house with the best record because champions play it? Of course even this is a false dichotomy. I would say champions are champions for a number of different reasons, the ability to play extremely well is obviously one of them, but so is evaluating the card pool, the meta (local, regional, national, international), and playing decks that give the highest chance of winning. IOW the best players are choosing Lannister because it affords them the best chance to become champions. Once a champion has risen to the top their game play and knowledge is going to be higher than the average player and will be able to perform with other houses and other builds... but they are quite possibly handicapping themselves, unless they have been able to read the meta and have found a way to make a house/build perform above the norm.

I personally eagerly await to see Dobs non-Lanni deck and read some in depth tourney reports, and hope Eric does the same. I have some suspicions about what may be able to walk away with wins that are not Lannister, but I'm keen to see what they come up with.

You know, something I'm not seeing anyone bring up is Dragon's Tail. I know, you only net a total of one card. and it works for your opponent, but if you are playing against lannister it seems like this card is awesome! I mean if they are already drawing three cards a turn anyway, you aren't giving them anything extra. and really, if you aren't giving your opponent anything, this card is better than insidious ways! I mean you don 't have to win a challenge. you just use the event! and getting cards in the marshalling phase is great because you can actually play those cards you draw.

Also, I realize that the Maegi isn't that good compared to Lanni draw, but what I'm saying is that why do you need to compare it to lanni draw? Really the big thing here is that for the first time in AGoT history, you don't have some neutral event that nets you three cards. First we had Stargazing in the beginning. After that we had Massing, and then with ITE brought Watching the Heavens. Why can't we get an event like that for LCG? I think it'd go along way towards speeding up draw for the houses while not having to ban or errata or print tons of new cards. Also, Lanni draw ins't NEARLY as broken as Martell Defenders used to be. And even after the errata was still broken.