Okay, take two!

Question: you know why they call them DEFENDERS and not OFFENDERS?!? Because, while they are harder to kill than a roach, for 90-100 points they hit as bout as hard as a tie fighter. 🙄

See below for the full history of my ambitions:

So Adv Sensors just plays so poorly with Defenders. Two ship list seems unviable. Altho I made it to Top 8 in Cantina Open, it’s very sensitive to it’s matchup.

So, I now cast my eye to the offensive monster named Col Vessy. Can we find the right crew for him?

I still want an Ace to play Dad and defend against the annoying elements of the game.

No Juke, because against half the lists it’s unused since Vessy is at I4 moving last...

I’m really liking 5B. Same init, and fragile aces are scared stupid of him. With Pas Sen he can put both his AND Vessy’s lock where needed with max info.

Please vote on my two favorite lists, and give your own thoughts, too!

(A) I Love Thee, Vessy

(53) Soontir Fel [TIE Interceptor]
(3) Targeting Computer
(2) Daredevil
Points: 58

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
Points: 84

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

Total points: 192

OR

(B) I Love Thee, Vessy

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
Points: 84

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

(52) Grand Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Sense
(6) Concussion Missiles
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 65

Total points: 199

Thoughts???

This?

(C) I Love Thee, Vessy

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
Points: 84

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

(22) Academy Pilot [TIE/ln Fighter]
Points: 22

(22) Academy Pilot [TIE/ln Fighter]
Points: 22

(22) Academy Pilot [TIE/ln Fighter]
Points: 22

Total points: 200

I vote (B) for the mass of Force and evading that’s possible. Each ship has 3 agility, and you can easily, pseudo Focus and Evade in the same turn with all of them.

Vessery/5th Brother feels like a really neat pairing. 5th Brother ideally isn't spending his Lock, so Vessery can charge up. If an opponent doesn't want Vessery to get his lock wicked easy, they'll have to eat a 4-dice Homing Missile attack. I feel like folks might be more likely to take it.

66 points left.

• Soontir or Grand Inquisitor seem solid. I think I might like Grand Inquisitor more (can take FCS, to be less likely to spend the lock), but builds are awkward with spare points.
  • A TGI build could always do something like throw HLC or Collision Detector on Ves, to up his mobility or potential firepower.
  • Marksmanship/Autoblasters is oddly tempting. Vessery seems like he can more safely spend focus defensively or use movement actions, since he's got his offense covered by his ability. MMS/AB is a neat trick to cover offense (mostly) while again avoiding direct offensive actions. Probably bad, but I want to think on it.
• Loaded Maarek Stele is probably very bad, but kinda fun. Marksmanship, Proton Rockets, Fire Control System, and Afterburners, 61 points. But he's really more of a ship that wants a coordinate buddy, so he can Focus/Roll and still have a Lock.
• Another probably-fun-but-bad ship would be to run Redline with Passive Sensors, Ion Torpedoes, and Cluster Missiles (or Ion Missiles and Advanced Proton Torpedoes). Ion Torps will have a pretty high chance to tag someone, and Clusters with two locks and a calculate seems kinda nice.

Definitely GGI over Soontir for me. FCS wingmates are so good for Vess.

Additionally, only one locking partner is less than ideal. Having locks spread around makes it so much easier for Vess to zoom and boom. It can be very difficult to keep him on target, but he hits like a truck when teed up. Being able to just switch to the easiest target and give them a spanking is super useful.

Finally, you are right on AS Defenders wet lettuce tendencies, but Vess is far and away the best carrier. My own build of AS and Outmanouvre, with 2 SuperInqs for set up, lacked nothing in damage output. (Or HLC, or whatever... I tried a couple different things.... the Inqs need SNR, Concs and FCS, but it's all a bit tight.)

Incidentally, Marksmanship and Autoblasters has been working fairly well on Ryad, in our games at home. It's a nice, cheap option.

@Cuz05 @theBitterFig

Oooo.... GI and 5Bro could really power Clusters. 😬

I Love Thee, Vessy

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
(5) Cluster Missiles
(1) Crack Shot
Points: 90

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

(52) Grand Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Sense
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 59

Total points: 199

Feels bad tho having them on a 3 attack ship

I do like the idea of fitting Vess with Clusters, I did ponder it, with Juke for max carnage:D

Replacing the 3 primary doesn't overly bother me, I've run them instead of Concs on SuperInqs and the double tap can be very potent with good mods on both shots. Good hits into 2 targets can create a real swing.

The reason I never tried them on Vess in the end, was just because I imagined it would be something the opponent could opt out of too easily, and I feared it would basically be an empty slot in too many games.

May have been the nature of my list though. Which is similar to yours, tbf. But I would be interested in them if I could spread more than 2 other locks around. Not sure how to achieve that without sacrificing too much of the target priority on the other ships. Maybe 3x FCS, so Vess can also maintain one.

I'm not sure it would be particularly effective to run him with 3 other locking ships that didn't mind spreading them and keeping them up..... Maybe 3x FCS, Autoblaster Nu's....

Which all brings me back to no Clusters, lol. Worth a go though.

What about this one`:

Colonel Vessery (84)
Crack Shot (1)
Advanced Sensors (10)

Fifth Brother (42)
Passive Sensors (3)
Homing Missiles (5)

Seventh Sister (43)
Heightened Perception (3)
Passive Sensors (3)
Mag-Pulse Warheads (6)

Total: 200

I like the all 4s. I’d want a sense in there somewhere maybe for ace counter.

Soontir isn't a good wingman for Vess. Basically no one is unless they can also take FCS or are equal/lower Initiative than Vess but have the ability to get locks easily.

Soontir's problem is that, at I6, he probably wants to spend that lock to mod his own attack (otherwise why even bother giving him TC?), which means it isn't there when Vess comes to shoot.

Maarek works quite well, as he can take FCS and really wants to keep his locks as, unlike Vader, he doesn't have the action economy to keep taking them every round.

I think the v1s really are the best wingmen for him, though, they're matching Initiatives who don't mind taking locks because it gives them double mods.

That said, might I suggest:

Colonel Vessery (84)
Ship total: 84 Half Points: 42 Threshold: 4

Fifth Brother (42)
Passive Sensors (3)
Homing Missiles (5)

Ship total: 50 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 2

Seyn Marana (30)
Targeting Computer (3)

Ship total: 33 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2

Gideon Hask (30)
Targeting Computer (3)

Ship total: 33 Half Points: 17 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

Comes in at exactly 200 points, and gives you three locks to play with so you're not telegraphing Vessery's target. They're all matching Initiative, which I like. And as Gideon gets to shoot last, there's a very good chance he'll be a 3 dice primary ship most of the game. Seyn also helps out here, as even against highly shielded targets there's a chance she can sneak a crit under for Gideon to trigger off.

Dropping Passives to FCS on Fifth Brother gives you a point for Marksmanship on Seyn to increase her odds of triggering, but it's probably not a worthwhile trade.

Alternatively, Seyn and Gideon can serve as blockers against high Initiative pilots to give Vessery and FB a chance of getting arc on them, which is absolutely their weakness otherwise.

Since Ive got nothing better to do, I'd like to sound off on the relative merits of SuperInqs vs the InqSiblings.

I4 at 199/200pt is problematic in lots of ways, you're a pseudo I3, pretty much. I4 with a mini-bid is actually pretty awesome, now you're a pseudo I5.

The benefits of simultaneous fire are generally marginal.

This difference can be BIG in the mid range. At the extremes, vs trip aces or mass generics, you've really got access to tools that can deal with either, to a degree. Bid or no bid. But outside of certain specific match ups, against a large number of all rounders, the move 1st/last is going to have a large impact at all I4.

Considering we're building for Vessery, we're going to be hitting the high numbers to squeeze in the necessary tools.

Hence, for Vess, I prefer to accept the move last and go SuperInq. The movement options are unique, allowing you range control, hide behind obstacles and generally remain lock active and nigh impossible to pin down, whether you engage or not. All pre-emptive, rather than reactive. This gives Vessery the space and time to pick his target and, although it puts a lot of onus on him to beat the heck out of them, he is more than capable of doing that. (Particularly with AS keeping him just as unpredictable.)

With the twins, both awesome, I'd be far more inclined to view them as natural wingmates to a proper ace with a bid. Vader, Soontir, Duchess etc. They're more predictable, but more reactive, so ideally you give them the main weapon in that fight, outbidding the many other I4+'s around.

But you can obviously mix and match. Several of my favourite squads include 7 Sis, paired with the likes of Rex, Vader, Soontir, Echo... Bid/no bid as necessary.

Following that logic, I'd be more inclined to find a different 3rd ship to go with Vess and one sibling. But there you have the lock issue again..... And are probably back looking at Rex....

Ultimately, as much as I'm hugely attracted to Bro and Sis with him, I'm unconvinced. I feel like he really enjoys the company of generics, more than anything else.

However, saying that, I can actually see the benefit of a TC Soontir in there. He can often find himself running around not shooting anything. If he's doing that, grabbing a lock and then just running off, he'll be giving Vess that time and set up. However, I think you're generally better off NOT trading Vessery, while Soontir waits for the end game. It's a big point imbalance.

With the SuperInqs, my aim was always to trade them, or half on each 1st, as slowly as possible. By which time, Vess has bashed lumps out of things and can either run or go all in, depending on how much you need to close a win. Soontir seems less suited to that, since if he is caught, he's probably gone. An Inq caught, just tags his mate in.

Revisiting this old chestnut, it's a shame HLC no longer fits. But MarksBlasters are no bad thing. I did have Outmanouevre and Clusters, but it didn't suit games vs aces, where the Inqs had to hold their distance yet still try to contribute.

Basically, a sacrifice has to be made on Vessery's extremes of punchiness to get that balance on the Inqs.

Without Clusters, Outmanouevre or HLC, games against mass generics are unfortunately going to be more about chip and run, rather than smash and grab.

Bulletproof Vess

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(8) Supernatural Reflexes
(6) Concussion Missiles
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 51

(35) Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(8) Supernatural Reflexes
(6) Concussion Missiles
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 51

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
(3) Autoblasters
(10) Advanced Sensors
(1) Marksmanship
Points: 98

Total points: 200

I wanna try this..... now I wouldn’t be slamming all the time just 1 fwd passive and sling a torp with just my lock.

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
(0) Jamming Beam
Points: 84

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(3) Advanced SLAM
(3) Passive Sensors
(13) Proton Torpedoes
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points: 66

Total points: 200

Awkward list ..... ☝️ ☝️ ☝️

I always forget the darn things don’t turn around.

Now trying this! Played one game against higher init falcons and the passives work swimmingly. Seismic just for the double modded shot.

I Love Thee, Vessy (Version: 2.1.2)

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
(0) Jamming Beam
Points: 84

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

(44) "Deathrain" [TIE/ca Punisher]
(3) Seismic Charges
(3) Hull Upgrade
(3) Passive Sensors
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 66

Total points: 200

On 4/25/2020 at 2:09 PM, JBFancourt said:

Awkward list ..... ☝️ ☝️ ☝️

I always forget the darn things don’t turn around.

Now trying this! Played one game against higher init falcons and the passives work swimmingly. Seismic just for the double modded shot.

I Love Thee, Vessy (Version: 2.1.2)

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
(0) Jamming Beam
Points: 84

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

(44) "Deathrain" [TIE/ca Punisher]
(3) Seismic Charges
(3) Hull Upgrade
(3) Passive Sensors
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 66

Total points: 200

Oh, this is dirty.

I love it.

I've wondered about Redline with Vessery before, as easy double locks + ProTorps + FCS seemingly makes them perfect partners, but Redline is just so expensive, and comparing him with this Deathrain build makes that all the more obvious.

You pretty much have to drop ProTorps down to Plasmas on Redline to squeeze in Maarek or Fifth Brother, and while that's not the worst thing if Redline is opening against shielded targets, it's still not perfect. Vessery and Redline are both overcosted, IMO, and if they ever come down there could potentially be a very strong list there.

But in the meantime, Passive Sensors means this list does basically the same job. And in this setup, Vessery gets to be your opener. Double modded three dice primary that hopefully takes a shield or two or at the very least burns tokens, Deathrain with a good spike of damage that hoepfully pushes that ProTorp crit through, and then an all but guaranteed crit from FB to finish off.

Burning Seismics just to get double mods sounds so wasteful at first, until you realise that if there was a talent upgrade for 3 points that gave you a free focus action for two turns and could be reloaded, half the ships in the game would take it, no questions asked.

Personally, I feel that Hull Upgrade might be better spent as FCS and/or Crack Shot on Vess so that you can freely spend locks as needed on the other two and not worry quite so much about setup on the next round. Or even just left as a very marginal bid against other I4 lists (your Braylens, Dutchs, etc.). It's been a while since I've played Punishers, so maybe an extra hull helps more than I remember. But generally I tend no to bother with HP upgrades unless they bump up the half points threshold, which won't happen here.

@GuacCousteau

First off: love your enthusiasm and your thought process! Lol. They both mirror mine as far as my thoughts on Redline and stumbling onto this list. 5-0 so far in casual play. 😜

1) One of my favorite things about Deathrain vs Redline that I did not anticipate being soooo huge is that he’s I4. So many times one ship is blocking another’s move. Especially Deathrain’s fat butt. All I4 is powerful both for movement and engagement order. The biggest draw backs are NONEXISTENT thanks to passives and Vessy ability.

2) This is a JOUST ME list and really REALLY wants to shoot first. So I’d run it to 200 every time. Defender hates being blocked. Passives got your back. Against real aces you’re just throwing points away.

3) The hull upgrade... is very useful against the Rebel Beef matchup. Everyone loves shooting the punisher. Which is good. (In reality... they should IMHO prioritize Vessy or 5Bro. They are far deadlier. Once Deathrain pops his two Torps he’s basically done. His role then is just painting targets for Vessy if still alive. MAYBE gets one reload in.) The HU keeps him alive to get his second Torp off. YUGE! And FCS on Vessy seems...... wrong.... 🤣 😜

4) The other benefit of the Seismic is it acts as a poor man’s Adv Sen on Deathrain for the K-turn or bump.

5) The firing order is actually a little bit more complicated. You’re right that Vessy leads to plink shields and strip tokens on LOWER I guys. You move last, Deathrain or 5Bro TL like normal, then the other Passives in case you destroy the target. Engage: Vessy - Guy with Lock - Passives Guy.

But against HIGHER I goons, when everyone passives, 5Bro has to go first. Sad face 😢 ... The reason is because no locks are on that fool I5 that just entered your kill box. 5Bro activates 1st with lock and HM. Usually they’re going to take the two cuz they have shields. But BEST part is that the lock STAYS. THEN you activate Vessy to strip remaining shields/tokens. THEN you hit with double modded Torp and get your Crit anywho. Happy face 😁 .

It’s FUN to play. Good luck!

NOTE: Against the squirrels of X-Wing don’t use your Seismics for a focus. Just shoot single modded Torps and use Seismics for Adv Sens K Turns. UNLES YOU ARE SURE - I MEAN SURE - THAT YOU WILL HAVE THEM IN ARC!

I've been, recently, afflicted by a need to play around with Defenders. I think I might need to test run your Vess/5thBro/Deathrain.
How would you reckon something like Sai would fit (in place of the Punisher)? Sai+ST-321 and/or even Krennic... Comes at 189...Her coordinate shenanigans can be really awesome, together with the title.
On the other hand, it's a shuttle and a drag on the other two ships, I suppose... 😄

2 hours ago, bahourmat said:

I've been, recently, afflicted by a need to play around with Defenders. I think I might need to test run your Vess/5thBro/Deathrain.
How would you reckon something like Sai would fit (in place of the Punisher)? Sai+ST-321 and/or even Krennic... Comes at 189...Her coordinate shenanigans can be really awesome, together with the title.
On the other hand, it's a shuttle and a drag on the other two ships, I suppose... 😄

IMHO, Sai (or another coordinator munchkin) is the only true way to make a defender ace work. I’ve flown it a lot. And it’s definitely a good list.

Typically Sai/Rex and either Grand Inquisitor or Fel.

I just got tired of the coordinator munchkins and wanted to fly a defender without one. I tried variations of Adv Sens Rex.... meh. Just played so poorly.

Going for less ace more brawl now. I’m really liking it tho. It’s nice to have 3 equal threat guns.

Without some trick up your sleeve the defenders are so dang predictable and easy to trounce. So you either fly away every other round, coordinate actions, or Adv Sensors, or run I1 Defenders.

Thus Vessy is nice...

This is a variation of my pretty classic list.

(52) Grand Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Sense
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 59

(81) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender]
(2) Fire-Control System
(7) Juke
Points: 90

(47) Lieutenant Sai [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
(4) ST-321
Points: 51

Total points: 200

There's also dropping upgrades for Vader. Reaper is just for jam/ coordinate and blocking.

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(6) Afterburners
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 75

(81) Rexler Brath [TIE/D Defender]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 83

(39) Scarif Base Pilot [TIE Reaper]
Points: 39

Total points: 197

I like the GI list. Might have issues vs swarms, since Inquisitors blues do not cover ground, and defenders are predictable. But those three ships with evade force/focus can be a pain to take down. Could add collision detector to Vess over concussion on GI. This makes vess a little less predictable, and if you need to kturn on/over an obstacle, go for it.

Colonel Vessery (84)
Collision Detector (6)
Jamming Beam (0)

Fifth Brother (42)
Passive Sensors (3)
Homing Missiles (5)

Grand Inquisitor (52)
Sense (5)
Fire-Control System (2)
Total: 199

Hmm, went back to my Kagi Shuttle w. GI crew list. Usually have Vader and Soontir/7th Sis, but Vess and 5th bro fit.

Colonel Vessery (84)
Crack Shot (1)

Fifth Brother (42)
Passive Sensors (3)
Homing Missiles (5)

Captain Kagi (48)
Grand Inquisitor (13)
ST-321 (4)
Total: 200

This gives vess an action after the highest init enemy ship reveals their dial. Basically adv sensors against swarms so Vessery can broll or boost to not get blocked. Or give 5th bro an evade, etc. And while GI crew coordinates, it kicks in the title to lock auto procing Vesseries ability. Kagi is init 4, same as 5th bro and Vess, and his ability protects from any type of alpha strike with Jendon, etc, or CIS probe droid on your aces (passive sensors gets by Kagi though, sadly). Kagi was clutch back in the FCS vader and hatchetman days. Just laughed in their face while Vader and Soontir mopped the floor with them.

I like this ☝️ ☝️ ☝️

I’m going to run Vess/5Bro/Deathrain in the Corona Renegades TTS tournament. I’ll post how I do.

• Colonel Vessery: naked
• Seventh Sister: Sense, Passive Sensors
• "Echo": Fifth Brother, Passive Sensors

A very agile and nimble Phantom, a Crack Shot wielding and AntiAceSensing V1 and the bully of a Defender.

This is what I would fly, as while Vessery is a solid piece, neither of the ships here are a decent target to focus on. V1s are terrible to catch and even if an Evade+Force or Boost+Focus+Force makes them difficult to kill. Phantom can just Evade and Cloak, and has a Force. Then Defender has the free Evade and should Focus almost always either way. Phantom and Defender are solid end game pieces, so you can adapt your game plan accordingly. Lastly you have two Passive Sensors to trigger Vessery.

On 4/24/2020 at 11:27 AM, JBFancourt said:

I wanna try this..... now I wouldn’t be slamming all the time just 1 fwd passive and sling a torp with just my lock.

(84) Colonel Vessery [TIE/D Defender]
(0) Jamming Beam
Points: 84

(42) Fifth Brother [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Homing Missiles
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 50

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(3) Advanced SLAM
(3) Passive Sensors
(13) Proton Torpedoes
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points: 66

Total points: 200

I (unknowingly) built a very similar list; Vynder had Diamond-Boron Missiles instead of Proton Torps, and I think I had one guy carrying Passives and the other two equipped with FCS. I actually loved it, didn’t find it to be awkward at all, though I have only played it once (beat a Wedge/Biggs/Dutch/Gold Squad Vet list). It was super fun, and I’m definitely giving it another go soon!

Vynder *does* turn around; it’s a 2-hard turn followed by an identical SLAM. Similar effect to a Tallon Roll, but you skip the stress! And it often keeps you closer to the action than a Tallon Roll would have.

Not to necro..... BUT this is where I’m currently at with the defender. Idk why but I get a thrill flying Aces with no bid. Seems so pure..... 🤣 😜

And you’ll also spot my favorite chassis. Even tho nihilism set in trying to create an Ace Defender...... ❤️ 😁

Ace(s and a) Defender!

(54) Soontir Fel [TIE/in Interceptor]
(2) Predator
Points: 56

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(6) Afterburners
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 75

(67) Delta Squadron Pilot [TIE/D Defender]
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 69

Total points: 200

Oh, and surprise! A PS1 Defender at full health with FCS is an astounding end game piece.

Going back to the earlier thought of Vessery + 5th Brother... a Standard Passives/Homing 5Bro leaves 69 points now. Enough for FCS Vader. No room for bid or Burners, but Vader as a battering ram with V and B to mop up... might work...

Delta pobably is the right way to go, however.