Hi

If you have a talent that has a stat prerequisite - for example Ambidexterity - would you be unable to use the talent if you suffered minuses to that stat, and no longer had the needed AG 30?

It seems an easy enough question, but just can't seem to find it answered in the books.

If you look at Cybernetic Ressurection (IH) it states you lose the use of those talents...

Thanks for the reply

Santiago said:

well it says you loose the talents but this is an effect of cybernetic ressurection and not of the generall loss of statistics

machinator array and helot mining devices as well as mutations say nothing on loosing talents or skills and when you create your character and gain talents there is often enough a phrase like (ignore prerequisites)

if you compare general statistics loss with cyber ressurection you can as well compare the generall matter of what happens if I get a talent without meeting the requirements with the talents you can get from starting packages...

So you'd argue that someone using Bulging Biceps to fire a heavy weapon would still be able to do that after suffering from attribute damage to his strength, reducing it to, say, 10?

Cifer said:

I'ld argue that there is no official statement we (my current group and me) still play by "stats go down talent is lost" (it was about two weapon wielder and agility in our group) I just wanted to mention there is no real statement in the rules and it can be argued both ways... that's my opinion on what the rules say not on what would be realistic or good rules

Sirion said:

You mean, other than the one instance of anything being mentioned on it (Cybernetic Resurrection) resulting in the talent being lost? It says you lose the talent if your attributes go below the prereqs for the talent, it doesn't mention the Resurrection as being the only instance this would happen.

MILLANDSON said:

you see you can interpret it both ways...

if there is a need to mention it in cybernetic ressurection but nowhere else then it is because this rules doesn't apply anywhere else.

it's the same with loads of different rules that are being discussed in this forum (I remember the dualwield basic weapons that you can or can't fire on full auto because dual wield somewhere has pistol in it's description) and I won't say it has to be done like this or like that...

as mentioned before at the moment we play scores go down talent is lost (and it's my loss in our party and I didn't complain) I'm just saying you can intepret it both ways. just bring it up in your group decide on an interpretation and it should never come up again

I hope you mean that you can't use the talent until you've met the prerequisites again.

Let's take counterstrike, if you agility drops beneath 40 you don't just suddenly forget how to counterstrike, your body just isn't capable of making the moves you want.

If you would raise your agility to 40+ again you should be able to use counterstrike again, but as they are no official rules about this that's just my opinion.

well no official rules out there so this is a gm decision...

however I rechecked the talents section and it clearly states the prerequisites are to be met as you buy them.... nothing more... just a prereq to buy them

I too think you don't forget that stuff and if you made contacts with the AD (peer AD talent) and you got a scar in your face (Fel drops) you shouldn't loose your connection...

If you get cyber ressurected and loose your original body and have to completely relearn then it makes sense to loose all the moves you trained

let's imagine a 80 year old grey haired guy in our real world that lost most of his Agility due to injuries (take your pick of an applicable war) and just being old.... he barely rides his bicycle but he sure does... this is a Skill in game terms and no matter of how low that Agility drops he remains able to drive a Bicycle with the appropriate chance of success

now imagine expiremental military research for cyborgs who produce implantable cyber eyes... now that's a messy chirurgic act and requires a Toughness of 40 (by description the top of humankind) to be able to take it ... now once imstalled this eye works like an auger array or stuff...
like logis implant this is a talent and would it be loose it's funtionality if toughness drops beneath 40?

by the book prerequisties are only entry requirements...

Deynomeas said:

I'd have to agree with this. Same goes for the Bulging Biceps example above...if you are no longer strong enough to fire on semi and auto without first bracing, you get knocked on your butt. Once you are strong enough, you may resume firing without first bracing.

If I knew how to twist my body in a 180 at the waist (Agility 70, unnatural (2x) let's say), and then I suddenly lose some Agility (Agility 30, now), I can't spin through a 180 at the waist no matter how well I remember the technique; at least, not without hurting myself!

If I knew how to drive a car (Int 30), then suddenly got hit in the head with a baseball bat (Int 15, now), I wouldn't be able to drive. No matter if I used to be able to.

Deynomeas said:

That's a strait forward and logical assertion. Allow me to counter with something that absolutely dose not belong in an rpg dealing with the warhammer 40k universe, but, **** it, someone has to -the real world.

In the real world, if you suffer sufficient physical trauma (say from being shot or involved in a car accident) that impairs you ability to move (not being full on paralyzed or the like, just, I believe the proper technical term is 'being jacked up a bit') you still have to go through physical therapy to relearn how to do simple things like walk, hold an egg, or other feats involving fine motor control that your body had lost due to the trauma. No matter how much you remember doing those things and understand the theories behind the actions, you still have to invest a good bit of time (moths or even years) of painfully retraining your body to do those things again.

Like the old saying goes, "you never really forget how to ride a bike" but, by the same token, if you get hit by a car and spend the next two years in painful rehabilitation and another five before you are in the right physical and mental condition to get back on that bike after that accident, you're sure as hell gonna be rusty at it -it will take you some time and a good bit of practice to get back to where you were before the accident.

@Graver

I'd say this rehabilitation and practice could be considered the rebuilding of the ability, not rebuying the talent.

@Sirion

now imagine expiremental military research for cyborgs who produce implantable cyber eyes... now that's a messy chirurgic act and requires a Toughness of 40 (by description the top of humankind) to be able to take it ... now once imstalled this eye works like an auger array or stuff...
like logis implant this is a talent and would it be loose it's funtionality if toughness drops beneath 40?

In that case, another rule would be used. If you take a look at some IH implants and procedures, there's often a test of some kind to avoid the drawbacks - for example, the dragon's tear treatment to make Scitarii fearless requires a WP test and inflicts Insanity points if you don't make it. For your "messy chirurgic act", there would likely be a toughness test to avoid taking wounds or the implant being rejected.

So in summary,

if the stats decrease and no longer fit the prerequisites to use it, then the talent cannot be used.

but when the stats increase and it fits the prerequisites then the talent can be used again without having to use XP to buy it.