If you are playing two north agendas can someone put a wilding horde in the setup(it cost 5)? The question is because in the setup you don't "play" cards so i don't know if his cost is 5 or 7 during the setup.
The wilding horde. Reduce the cost to play The Wildling Horde by 1 for each The North agenda you are running.
Thanks
You should also note that cards enter the play in setup textless. So basicly you cant see the text lowering the cost and it would still cost 7. Same with all other cards. It was good in the CCG day when in setup all X cost cards were for free
From the rules corebook:
6. Place setup cards
The first player places his setup cards first, followed by other players in clockwise order. When placing your setup cards, you may place up to 5 gold worth of characters and/or location cards from your hand facedown in front of you. You may not place attachments during this step unless they include the “Setup” eyword in their game text; your setup must also include valid targets for such attachments. You may only place one card with the “Limited” keyword during this step and you may not place duplicates of unique cards (see page 15). Cards affiliated with a different House (than the House you are playing) cost 2 additional gold to play (this is called a gold penalty, see page 11). After all players have placed their setup cards in front of them, all the cards are simultaneously revealed. Note: Cards are considered neither “played” nor “put into play” when revealed during setup. Thus, any card effect that triggers after being played from your hand or when “put into play” will not trigger when revealed during setup.
And in the FAQS, about setup:
(2.1) Card Effects in Setup
Cards revealed during setup do not trigger card effects. This includes cards that contain the text "When put into play" or "When played from your hand." No actions may be taken during the setup phase.
I don't read anywhere else that the cards are textless. I can understand you don't "play" the horde so you can't lowered the cost of the card but when the cards are in your hand they are no textless, they are "textless" when you reveal them for "played" or "put into play" effects. I don't know if i am too wrong ...
Your answer is right there in your quotations:
Reduce the cost to play The Wildling Horde by 1 for each The North agenda you are running.
Note: Cards are considered neither “played” nor “put into play” when revealed during setup.
However, cards that don't belong to your house cost 2 more due to the gold penalty. This penalty applies to cards you play (and during setup you're not actually playing them) but it still applies. I'm a bit confused too.
From the rulebook:
The first player places his setup cards first, followed by other players in clockwise order. When placing your setup cards, you may place up to 5 gold worth of characters and/or location cards from your hand facedown in front of you. You may not place attachments during this step unless they include the “Setup” eyword in their game text; your setup must also include valid targets for such attachments. You may only place one card with the “Limited” keyword during this step and you may not place duplicates of unique cards (see page 15). Cards affiliated with a different House (than the House you are playing) cost 2 additional gold to play (this is called a gold penalty, see page 11) . After all players have placed their setup cards in front of them, all the cards are simultaneously revealed. Note: Cards are considered neither “played” nor “put into play” when revealed during setup. Thus, any card effect that triggers after being played from your hand or when “put into play” will not trigger when revealed during setup.
So we have this piece of information under the Setup phase category. Why would we need to know that if we're not playing cards? My guess is that you have to spend the same amount of gold you would during the marshalling phase.
BTW, did anyone play out-of-house cards without paying the gold penalty during setup?
schrecklich said:
Your answer is right there in your quotations:
Reduce the cost to play The Wildling Horde by 1 for each The North agenda you are running.
Note: Cards are considered neither “played” nor “put into play” when revealed during setup.
I agree with this, but they are "not played" when revealed, not when you put them face down during the setup, so i don't see it as the real reason for the 7 gold cost.
You may place up to 5 gold worth of characters and/or location cards from your hand facedown in front of you.
The cost for me for the horde is 7- (the number of north agendas i play) , and agendas are declared before setup, so the real cost during marshallingis 7-2=5, and nothing in the rules tell me that the card before the beggining of the game is textless, or cannot apply the card text. That is why some people being confuse.
schrecklich' s main point is that cards are not played during setup and, thus, the cost reduction doesn't apply. But then the gold penalty would apply either because it only affects cards that are played. Then, why would the rules refer to the gold penalty when explaining how the setup phase works?
Ah, I love the disagreements:
OOH gold penalties, the "Setup" keyword and the "Limited" keyword count during Setup because the rules say they do. As quoted before:
Core Rules: You may not place attachments during this step unless they include the “Setup” keyword in their game text; your setup must also include valid targets for such attachments. You may only place one card with the “Limited” keyword during this step and you may not place duplicates of unique cards (see page 15). Cards affiliated with a different House (than the House you are playing) cost 2 additional gold to play (this is called a gold penalty, see page 11).
Any other text on any card placed during setup is not considered active during the Setup phase because the rules say so. As quoted before:
FAQ: Cards revealed during setup do not trigger card effects. This includes cards that contain the text "When put into play" or "When played from your hand." No actions may be taken during the setup phase.
It's not that the cards are "textless" (a workable short-hand that Rozy and many others use to clarify the process, even if it isn't strictly true) it is that the text is not considered active or actionable.
So ultimately, you guys are over-thinking this. OOH gold penalties apply during Setup. The rules say so. Do not try to read more into it than that or try to create general applications to other types of gold penalties. (Remember also that there is no comparison of OOH gold penalties to the Wildling Horde's cost reducing ability; application of gold penalties and cost reduction are two entirely different things: check out the FAQ's description of how costs are determined and effects are initiated.) Similarly, any effect, modification or power driven by text on a card being placed is not applicable during the Setup. The rules say so. Do not try to read more into it than that or try to bypass that basic rule with some other permutation.
The Wildling Horde's cost reduction effect is not applicable during Setup because the FAQ says that no character effects are applicable during Setup. And, as has been pointed out, the effect doesn't apply anyway because you are not playing the card, anyway. You will never be able to place the Horde during Setup.
ktom said:
OOH gold penalties , the "Setup" keyword and the "Limited" keyword count during Setup because the rules say they do.
Although the rules say that OOH cards cost 2 more gold to play , they do not say this penalty applies during setup. You cannot assume the rules say so just because that sentence appears under the Setup phase explanation.
You can call the gold penalty imposed during Setup anything you want, but OOH cards cost an extra 2 (out of the 5 you get to use) during Setup because the rules say so. Can we agree that the Setup phase explanation says THAT ?
And just out of curiosity, when you play with Treaty with the Isles or Treaty with the South, are you placing GJ/Martell cards with a 2-gold penalty during Setup because the Agenda only says to ignore OOH gold penalties, but the Setup rules do not directly call the penalty imposed during Setup an OOH gold penalty?
ktom said:
The Wildling Horde's cost reduction effect is not applicable during Setup because the FAQ says that no character effects are applicable during Setup. And, as has been pointed out, the effect doesn't apply anyway because you are not playing the card, anyway. You will never be able to place the Horde during Setup.
Sorry ktom, can you tell me where in the FAQS says that no character effects are applicable during Setup? I was reading the faqs and core rules for this questions and i cannot find it
(I want to know it for the Theon Greyjoy[ If you are playing a HS House card, reduce the gold penalty to play Theon Greyjoy by 1.] not being using in the setup)
And if you in the setup are not playing cards, why there is a note in the core rules that say that cards are considered neither “played” nor “put into play” when revealed during setup. It is confuse. If it is not play it is for all the phase, and there is no problem when the reveal part comes.
What I'm saying is that OOH penalty applies during setup but the wording used in the rules refer to cards being played . If OOH penalty applies during setup I don't see why the reduction of cost in Wildling Horde shouldn't. After all, it uses the same wording.
Also, the text on Wilding Horde is taken into account when you place it facedown on the table from your hand, not when you reveal it. The FAQ only says that cards revealed during setup don't trigger effects but the effect of Wildling Horde works from your hand. There's no point in applying a cost reduction after you have already played the card, is there?
KyK said:
(I want to know it for the Theon Greyjoy[ If you are playing a HS House card, reduce the gold penalty to play Theon Greyjoy by 1.] not being using in the setup)
We are probably being too literal here. When the rules, as well as the FAQ, says that cards are not considered "played" or "put into play" when revealed during Setup, and that no player actions can be taken, it is saying that nothing happens that is based off of card text.
Further, by saying that cards are not considered "played" during Setup, and "thus" nothing triggers off of that card being "played," that is not a complete list of all possible implications. If the card is not considered "played," then how can text that reduces the cost "to play" be applied?
Further, it is a two-step process, like putting cards into Shadows. You get to place 5-gold worth of stuff face-down, then you reveal them. When you place the cards, they are not being put into play (ie, they cannot be used for anything), so you cannot be playing them. When you reveal them, they may be going into play, but they are not considered either "played" or "put into play" by definition.
KyK said:
Your objection is becoming circular. You seem to be saying here that "if the cards are not played, there is no need for the clarification; but without the clarification, I'd assume that the cards were played." So that kind of answers the question, right? The bit in the rules is clarifying and defining that the cards placed during Setup are not counted as being played, put into play or coming into play the way cards that come into play after the start of the first round are. It is the part that defines the fact that they are not played - and creates the "no problem" when the revealing part comes.
So, we know from the definitions that flipping the card face-up during the Setup phase does not count as "playing" the card. Therefore, the cost reduction on Wildling Horde or gold penalty reduction on Theon Greyjoy "to play" those cards cannot be applied here. When you take the card and put it face-down on the table in front of you before revealing, you are not playing the card, either. But if you insist that you are, then the "to play" effects still cannot be applied because the card you are playing is a face-down card, not actually the Wildling Horde or Theon Greyjoy (until they are revealed). The self-referential, cost reducing effects cannot be applied to a card whose title is hidden when it leaves your hand.
eloooooooi said:
See the answer above, but also keep in mind that every other description of the card leaving your hand during Setup is termed "place" rather than "play." Then, the rules go on to say that the cards, when revealed, are not considered to be "played." Is it more likely that the use of the word "play" at tha t one point in the description of Setup is an error, or that there are hidden, confusing meanings that al players are supposed to understand immediately from the otherwise contradictory information?
That one use of the word "play" contradicts the rest of the text and context of Setup. I'd caution against reading too much into it.
eloooooooi said:
Again, see the answer above. If you are going to apply the cost reduction to placing The Wildling Horde facedown on the table (an action that could only arguably be termed "playing" the card since the rules call putting the cards facedown on the table "placing" them), you are trying to apply a self-referential effect to a card with a hidden title. It would be no different than, for example, putting Tyrion into Shadows (which yes, the FAQ defines as "playing" a card), and then trying to trigger an "after yo play a Lord" effect (which the FAQ specifies you cannot do because the "Lord" part is hidden information).
You really want to say that it is OK to apply a hidden ability to a hidden card? Because that's what applying the Horde's "to play" effect to placing the card facedown during Setup would amount to.
If we assume that the word " play " at the description of the Setup phase is a mistake there's nothing to discuss about, is there? If that's the case I totally agree with you. Now we just have to discover if that's an error or not.