Locked On

(48) Colonel Jendon [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
(0) Jamming Beam
(6) Grand Moff Tarkin
(6) Ciena Ree
(3) Targeting Computer
Points: 63

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(2) Fire-Control System
(13) Proton Torpedoes
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points: 62

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(6) Afterburners
Points: 73

Total points: 198

Obvious game plan is obvious. Tarkin helps the whole team get locks, Gunboat hangs near shuttle, Vader acts as a mobile threat. Suggestions? I’m pretty new, any help is welcome.

Grand Moff is really redundant in this build. He’s meant more for swarms, especially if they cannot lock themselves. You have Jendon already.

Cienna .... meh but okay. NEED shuttle title and advanced slam. Below is a more efficient list. But still trying to keep close to your build.

🤔 🤔

Nevermind, I sprung for the Palpster. Passive Sensors on Vader so he doesn’t need bid.

(48) Colonel Jendon [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
(0) Jamming Beam
(11) Emperor Palpatine
Points: 59

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(3) Advanced SLAM
(2) Fire-Control System
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
(13) Proton Torpedoes
Points: 65

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(6) Afterburners
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 76

Total points: 200

Welcome to one of the most fun factions in Extended!

I would agree with @JBFancourt on this one, title is better by a long shot then the Moffster. Ciena Ree is good, but one thing I would be wary of is planning on coordinating every turn. The dial of the Lambda is so bad that you’ll find yourself taking a red move (or getting blocked) that an action will not be feasible. Especially with a speedy small-based ship like the gunboat, which wants to separate from its overbearing parent and dance around the battlefield like a ballerina with a gun hopped up on caffeine.

Other than that looks pretty good, man!

5 minutes ago, Cyptor said:

One thing I would avoid: putting a targeting computer on a ship that already has a native target lock action 😉

Shuttle doesn't have a Lock action. Used to in 1e, but doesn't in 2e.

//

In general though, @JBFancourt 's list is going to work best overall at the core idea. It's kind of boring to put things together in the same way, but this is what several folks have found works best.

• Palp is just good. He's force anywhere and everywhere. I've flown a lot of 2e Palp, and I almost always find a use for him each turn.
• Advanced SLAM is great on Vynder, one of his best upgrades. It might even be worth it to compromise on Proton Torpedoes and take Plasma Torpedoes or Diamond Boron Missiles instead, if you needed the points. This is what allows Vynder to have some real mobility and still keep firing his high-powered ordnance.
• Sensors are nice on Vader. Being able to Lock and Barrel Roll at Init 6 in the Engagement Phase is handy.

//

Now, those things that got removed:

• Grand Moff Tarkin. Dude is just very expensive, since he requires you to also buy Targeting Computer (or Krennic), and he's not super useful. Everyone in the list intends to grab long-range locks to start things off, so Tarkin's extra ability to help you acquire locks is kind of redundant. Probably an over-investment in that kind of consistency, when the Shuttle could just coordinate someone into taking a new lock to switch targets.
  • I think he does have uses, and it comes with large numbers, and particularly ships which don't have their own Locks. Jendon (with the Tarkin package), two generic TIE/x1, and two generic Strikers or TIE Interceptors seems like a great place to start, if you wanted to put Tarkin on the table. Alas, Jendon/Tarkin with 4 Tempest x1 is 201 points. Anyhow, that's a lot of ships, so a lot more to gain a benefit when you use Tarkin to give everyone a lock. Doesn't seem worth it for 2, but probably is for 4 or more. Of course, Admiral Sloane is the same price, and far easier to use.
  • Tarkin seems amazingly good in Epic, where there are even more ships on the table.
• Cienna Ree. She's awkward. The stress isn't great on most ships, and she's wicked hard to use effectively.
  • It's worth noting: she can only twist Vader on a Barrel Roll. She's not worth it for a single action on one ship. At very least, I think she needs to be able to coordinate someone into a bank-boost (that is, for a 45 degree turn in addition to her twist) in order to be remotely worthwhile.
  • The best-looking attempt I've seen at it ran with Soontir Fel, Vader with Sense (to peak at a dial, so you'd know if you wanted to Cienna), and Cienna on the reaper pilot Vizier. Even then, I didn't hear too many great things about it.
  • Cienna, while cool, is mostly taking the long way around. There was a time I was thinking about her with some TIE Defenders, but pretty much every neat trick I could think of... I could accomplish something close enough by dialing in something different. Granted, those were Init 1 Defenders, but I think it shows something about her.

3 hours ago, Cyptor said:

Welcome to one of the most fun factions in Extended!

One thing I would avoid: putting a targeting computer on a ship that already has a native target lock action 😉

I would agree with @JBFancourt on this one, title is better by a long shot then the Moffster. Ciena Ree is good, but one thing I would be wary of is planning on coordinating every turn. The dial of the Lambda is so bad that you’ll find yourself taking a red move (or getting blocked) that an action will not be feasible. Especially with a speedy small-based ship like the gunboat, which wants to separate from its overbearing parent and dance around the battlefield like a ballerina with a gun hopped up on caffeine.

Other than that looks pretty good, man!

So, I was confused when you mentioned the Lambda having a native Lock. It doesn’t. BitterFig cleared that up, however.

So my whole idea with Tarkin was that Vader always wants a Lock, and anything with Torpedoes always wants a Lock, and hey, it can’t hurt the shuttle to grab one either. I’ve tried Torpedoes and Missiles several times now, and barely ever got to fire them, mostly because I end up needing to do something like a repositioning action to put an arc on the opponent, or something more defensive, like Focusing, and I thus seldom have the lock when it’s needed. Vader can usually end up with one, because of his ability, but I figured I would just take it out of the Gunboat’s hands.

As far as Ciena, I simply misread her; I thought she could coordinate another ship, then take her OWN vessel for a spin. On closer reading, that obviously doesn’t work. Which means I may go back to my original plan, which was indeed to have the Emperor on the shuttle. But I’m a bit iffy on that, too; Vader already has the Force, so Palpatine isn’t helping 1/3 of my list from the start, and he still doesn’t solve my problem of how to ensure that Vynder can consistently, painlessly Lock. I guess Jendon helps that, at least once before everyone is engaged, but Tarkin seems a far more flexible solution. Even if he is fairly expensive.

Either way, Ciena’s out.

I’m also confused about your description of the Gunboat as “a ballerina with a gun.” Isn’t this thing about the least maneuverable ship in the Empire? It has no access to Segnor’s Loops, Koiogran Turns, Tallon Rolls, Barrel Rolls, Boosts, or 1-hard turns. The only thing that I was imagining would save it if it’s outflanked is the SLAM, which it can’t easily do if it has to worry about getting its own Locks, right? I haven’t yet flown it, but in my theorycrafting, I imagined it more like an overweight amputee with a bazooka. Fine if it has something else providing Target Lock, but too ungainly to do it all alone. Is this inaccurate?

Thanks!

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Shuttle doesn't have a Lock action. Used to in 1e, but doesn't in 2e.

//

In general though, @JBFancourt 's list is going to work best overall at the core idea. It's kind of boring to put things together in the same way, but this is what several folks have found works best.

• Palp is just good. He's force anywhere and everywhere. I've flown a lot of 2e Palp, and I almost always find a use for him each turn.
• Advanced SLAM is great on Vynder, one of his best upgrades. It might even be worth it to compromise on Proton Torpedoes and take Plasma Torpedoes or Diamond Boron Missiles instead, if you needed the points. This is what allows Vynder to have some real mobility and still keep firing his high-powered ordnance.
• Sensors are nice on Vader. Being able to Lock and Barrel Roll at Init 6 in the Engagement Phase is handy.

//

Now, those things that got removed:

• Grand Moff Tarkin. Dude is just very expensive, since he requires you to also buy Targeting Computer (or Krennic), and he's not super useful. Everyone in the list intends to grab long-range locks to start things off, so Tarkin's extra ability to help you acquire locks is kind of redundant. Probably an over-investment in that kind of consistency, when the Shuttle could just coordinate someone into taking a new lock to switch targets.
  • I think he does have uses, and it comes with large numbers, and particularly ships which don't have their own Locks. Jendon (with the Tarkin package), two generic TIE/x1, and two generic Strikers or TIE Interceptors seems like a great place to start, if you wanted to put Tarkin on the table. Alas, Jendon/Tarkin with 4 Tempest x1 is 201 points. Anyhow, that's a lot of ships, so a lot more to gain a benefit when you use Tarkin to give everyone a lock. Doesn't seem worth it for 2, but probably is for 4 or more. Of course, Admiral Sloane is the same price, and far easier to use.
  • Tarkin seems amazingly good in Epic, where there are even more ships on the table.
• Cienna Ree. She's awkward. The stress isn't great on most ships, and she's wicked hard to use effectively.
  • It's worth noting: she can only twist Vader on a Barrel Roll. She's not worth it for a single action on one ship. At very least, I think she needs to be able to coordinate someone into a bank-boost (that is, for a 45 degree turn in addition to her twist) in order to be remotely worthwhile.
  • The best-looking attempt I've seen at it ran with Soontir Fel, Vader with Sense (to peak at a dial, so you'd know if you wanted to Cienna), and Cienna on the reaper pilot Vizier. Even then, I didn't hear too many great things about it.
  • Cienna, while cool, is mostly taking the long way around. There was a time I was thinking about her with some TIE Defenders, but pretty much every neat trick I could think of... I could accomplish something close enough by dialing in something different. Granted, those were Init 1 Defenders, but I think it shows something about her.

So I posted some ideas above, in response to Cyptor’s feedback. Interested in anyone and everyone’s takes on that, if you have a sec.

Also (while I have you on the line, and since you seem to be well versed in the rules), tell me: if I somehow manage to perform a SLAM while stressed (not even sure if that’s possible, but there must be some way), and it’s a blue maneuver, does that shed stress? It would, right?

I would rather have Sai and Advanced SLAM than Jendon. You use the former usually once at the start of the game. Once fighting starts, you will most likely already be at range 1-3 to your target. Sai gives you additional actions all the time. But then again... Lambda might find it difficult to keep up.

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(6) Afterburners
(3) Passive Sensors
Points: 76

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
(3) Advanced SLAM
(9) Plasma Torpedoes
Points: 59

(47) Lieutenant Sai [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
(0) Jamming Beam
(11) Emperor Palpatine
(4) ST-321
Points: 62

Total points: 197

Edit:

SLAM let's you perform blue or red maneuvers and the difficulty clears the stress or assigns it. And I don't think there is an option to perform a slam while stressed. Contraband Cybernetics perhaps?

6 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Also (while I have you on the line, and since you seem to be well versed in the rules), tell me: if I somehow manage to perform a SLAM while stressed (not even sure if that’s possible, but there must be some way), and it’s a blue maneuver, does that shed stress? It would, right?

One of the things that makes SLAM interactions unique is that you can't SLAM at any time other than your normal perform action step.

6 hours ago, Schanez said:

SLAM let's you perform blue or red maneuvers and the difficulty clears the stress or assigns it. And I don't think there is an option to perform a slam while stressed. Contraband Cybernetics perhaps?

Yeah, that'd do it. Contraband Cybernetics on a Fireball could be used to SLAM while stressed, and that ought to remove the stress. Other than that, I can't think of a way.

6 hours ago, Schanez said:

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]

(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(6) Diamond-Boron Missiles
(3) Advanced SLAM
(9) Plasma Torpedoes
Points: 59

Gotta add FCS in there, it's cheap and synergizes so well with OS-1. Saving those Locks is a TONNE of action efficiency.

Also, I don't think I'd run DBM and Plasma Torpedoes. I think they're both great options for a cost savings over Proton Torpedoes, since they're both sorta-kinda-almost-not-quite 4 dice attacks. However, they're both Range 2-3 ordnance, and you don't need two of those. What you *do* need is Range 1 coverage, and the best way to get that is with Advanced Proton Torpedoes. Plasma + Cluster would work, but you only save a single point, and you can't bonus attack while Disarmed, and you roll two fewer dice, so APT just seems better.

6 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

So my whole idea with Tarkin was that Vader always wants a Lock, and anything with Torpedoes always wants a Lock, and hey, it can’t hurt the shuttle to grab one either. I’ve tried Torpedoes and Missiles several times now, and barely ever got to fire them, mostly because I end up needing to do something like a repositioning action to put an arc on the opponent, or something more defensive, like Focusing, and I thus seldom have the lock when it’s needed. Vader can usually end up with one, because of his ability, but I figured I would just take it out of the Gunboat’s hands.

It's not that Tarkin is a bad idea in the abstract, it's just that he's very inefficient.

As you say, Vader can typically handle his own Lock. For Vynder, Init 4 is on the edge where you might be able to handle getting locks easily on your own (particularly since Vynder doesn't have a donut-hole at Range 1). On top of that, changing Locks can be helped with shuttle Coordinates. While Tarkin would definitely help ensuring that everyone always has a Lock (and this is a list where everyone *NEEDS* to have a Lock), you'll have enough consistency without Tarkin, so it'd be better to spend those points on something else.*

Meanwhile, one strength of Palpatine is that he covers some of those gaps. He doesn't make it easier to Lock, but having the Force available helps cover defenses left open by Locking.

* That's not always an easy line to see, between sufficient consistency, and an over-investment that winds up being redundant. I've been struggling with a way to say that which doesn't make me sound like a condescending jerk, but it does come with practice. If upgrades are inconsistent, they're wasted points, and you've handicapped your list. But once you've achieved a certain level of consistency, anything more spend on it is also probably wasted.** Meanwhile, It's worth knowing about me that I type this stuff out to learn more about it myself, as much as anything.

** I'm remembering a scene out of Deep Space Nine (Destiny 3x15), where Miles is working with a Cardassian engineer on some communications equipment, and she's frustrated by the modifications he's made to the formerly-Cardassian space station. Miles explains that Starfleet regulations required him to have a second backup. Aren't the chances of both the primary and backup equipment failing at the same time really low? Sure, but Miles wouldn't want to be caught without one in a crunch.

8 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

So, I was confused when you mentioned the Lambda having a native Lock. It doesn’t. BitterFig cleared that up, however.

Yeah, that was a big mistake on my part. Sorry about that. I’m new here too 🙂

8 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I’m also confused about your description of the Gunboat as “a ballerina with a gun.” Isn’t this thing about the least maneuverable ship in the Empire? It has no access to Segnor’s Loops, Koiogran Turns, Tallon Rolls, Barrel Rolls, Boosts, or 1-hard turns.

This was probably also not the most accurate thing I have ever written. I meant that compared to the shuttle, the Gunboat does go super fast when it wants to and there are definitely times when you’ll want to take it out of R2.

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

One of the things that makes SLAM interactions unique is that you can't SLAM at any time other than your normal perform action step.

Yeah, that'd do it. Contraband Cybernetics on a Fireball could be used to SLAM while stressed, and that ought to remove the stress. Other than that, I can't think of a way.

Gotta add FCS in there, it's cheap and synergizes so well with OS-1. Saving those Locks is a TONNE of action efficiency.

Also, I don't think I'd run DBM and Plasma Torpedoes. I think they're both great options for a cost savings over Proton Torpedoes, since they're both sorta-kinda-almost-not-quite 4 dice attacks. However, they're both Range 2-3 ordnance, and you don't need two of those. What you *do* need is Range 1 coverage, and the best way to get that is with Advanced Proton Torpedoes. Plasma + Cluster would work, but you only save a single point, and you can't bonus attack while Disarmed, and you roll two fewer dice, so APT just seems better.

It's not that Tarkin is a bad idea in the abstract, it's just that he's very inefficient.

As you say, Vader can typically handle his own Lock. For Vynder, Init 4 is on the edge where you might be able to handle getting locks easily on your own (particularly since Vynder doesn't have a donut-hole at Range 1). On top of that, changing Locks can be helped with shuttle Coordinates. While Tarkin would definitely help ensuring that everyone always has a Lock (and this is a list where everyone *NEEDS* to have a Lock), you'll have enough consistency without Tarkin, so it'd be better to spend those points on something else.*

Meanwhile, one strength of Palpatine is that he covers some of those gaps. He doesn't make it easier to Lock, but having the Force available helps cover defenses left open by Locking.

* That's not always an easy line to see, between sufficient consistency, and an over-investment that winds up being redundant. I've been struggling with a way to say that which doesn't make me sound like a condescending jerk, but it does come with practice. If upgrades are inconsistent, they're wasted points, and you've handicapped your list. But once you've achieved a certain level of consistency, anything more spend on it is also probably wasted.**

...

Locked On (Revised)

(48) Colonel Jendon [Lambda-class T-4a Shuttle]
(0) Jamming Beam
(6) Grand Moff Tarkin
(4) Director Krennic
Points: 58

(41) Major Vynder [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(0) Os-1 Arsenal Loadout
(3) Advanced SLAM
(2) Fire-Control System
(13) Proton Torpedoes
(6) Adv. Proton Torpedoes
Points: 65

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(6) Afterburners
(4) Foresight
Points: 77

Total points: 200

//

So here’s another take on it, having taken some of your advice. I do see the value in The Emperor, but I just don’t feel safe using Vynder to get his own locks; after all, he’s going to need to SLAM and Reload, and as you say, his initiative isn’t fantastic, so Tarkin feels like consistency, not redundancy. Or is just having Jendon in the list enough?

Anyway, Targeting Computer and Ciena Ree out, Krennic in, for the moment, which is better.

Gave Vynder Advanced SLAM.

Vader: it took me a while to get what you were saying about Barrel Rolling during engagement. I kept looking at Passive Sensors and seeing Calculate and Target Lock. But you mean re-Locking during engagement, and then spending a Force point to barrel roll. I see the value, but since Passive Sensors basically take up your Perform Action step, and Vader usually engages immediately after (i6), are these really worth it? The only time there seems to be a meaningful difference between having Passives and not with Vader would be if I’m 2nd player, and my opponent brings an i6 of his own. What am I missing?

29 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Vader: it took me a while to get what you were saying about Barrel Rolling during engagement. I kept looking at Passive Sensors and seeing Calculate and Target Lock. But you mean re-Locking during engagement, and then spending a Force point to barrel roll. I see the value, but since Passive Sensors basically take up your Perform Action step, and Vader usually engages immediately after (i6), are these really worth it? The only time there seems to be a meaningful difference between having Passives and not with Vader would be if I’m 2nd player, and my opponent brings an i6 of his own. What am I missing?

Yeah, I’ve actually been having this problem too. Heck, Oli used Passive on Vader in his very tight list, so I fell like there’s something I’m missing as well.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Vader: it took me a while to get what you were saying about Barrel Rolling during engagement. I kept looking at Passive Sensors and seeing Calculate and Target Lock. But you mean re-Locking during engagement, and then spending a Force point to barrel roll. I see the value, but since Passive Sensors basically take up your Perform Action step, and Vader usually engages immediately after (i6), are these really worth it? The only time there seems to be a meaningful difference between having Passives and not with Vader would be if I’m 2nd player, and my opponent brings an i6 of his own. What am I missing?

Someone else might have an Initiative 6 with a bigger bid, and choose to move second. Once Vader has moved and just used Passive Sensors, an opponent can arc dodge him. Then, in the engagement phase, Vader can Barrel Roll, and hopefully get arc back on the would-be arc dodger.

Passive Sensors is a tool for contesting games agaisnt other Init 6 ships, and doing so while building your list to 200 points (which most other Init 6 won't do). In big tournaments, there are lots of folks flying Init 6, and lots of folks with deep bids. As such, any of these players flying Vader kinda needs to bring Passive Sensors. Without a deep bid or Passive Sensors, Vader is in a really bad spot against other Init 6. Even with it, it's not automatic for him, but he's got a chance, and that's often enough.

However, it's entirely possible that, among the right group of players, it's just not worth it. If your opponents don't fly much Init 6, or they don't really bid when they do, you can get by fine without anything in the Sensor slot, or with Fire Control System (spending fewer locks = spending fewer force to take Lock actions = more force when you really need it).

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Someone else might have an Initiative 6 with a bigger bid, and choose to move second. Once Vader has moved and just used Passive Sensors, an opponent can arc dodge him. Then, in the engagement phase, Vader can Barrel Roll, and hopefully get arc back on the would-be arc dodger.

Passive Sensors is a tool for contesting games agaisnt other Init 6 ships, and doing so while building your list to 200 points (which most other Init 6 won't do). In big tournaments, there are lots of folks flying Init 6, and lots of folks with deep bids. As such, any of these players flying Vader kinda needs to bring Passive Sensors. Without a deep bid or Passive Sensors, Vader is in a really bad spot against other Init 6. Even with it, it's not automatic for him, but he's got a chance, and that's often enough.

However, it's entirely possible that, among the right group of players, it's just not worth it. If your opponents don't fly much Init 6, or they don't really bid when they do, you can get by fine without anything in the Sensor slot, or with Fire Control System (spending fewer locks = spending fewer force to take Lock actions = more force when you really need it).

Good info. That’s where I figured the Passives were worth it: Against i6’s with a better bid. But I guess I wasn’t sure how common that was.

Everyone in our local group is learning still, so while a few lists have had guys like Han or Wedge, Ace play has not become a dominant strategy (our lists are sort of all over the place).

2 hours ago, Cyptor said:

Yeah, I’ve actually been having this problem too. Heck, Oli used Passive on Vader in his very tight list, so I fell like there’s something I’m missing as well.

Who’s Oli?

3 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Who’s Oli?

Passive sensors on vader is just a tournament card. If you are not playing in a tournament. Dont worry about. In a tourney you may play 6 games in swiss rounds, and need it once, but that one time can be the difference between making the top cut or not. So its worth it throughout multiple games in a row when your chances of facing i6 with larger bid increases every game you play.

A good alternative to passive, is to put Sense on Vader. He got sense and block i6s, letting vynder setup deadly torp strikes, plus sense helps vynder and jendon both know movements on i4,5,and 6. So it helps the entire squad in many matches.