Some of the most interesting and dramatic events in feudal Japan arose from disputes between the many religious factions and institutions- individual temples as well as schools of Buddhism competed vigorously, sometimes viciously, for influence over both the aristocracy and the population at large. L5R tends to present Shinseism as more or less monolithic, with the exception of the Pure Lands movement, which is somewhat understandable given that Shinseist doctrine is never developed in any great detail. This leaves room for a lot of fun and interesting development within the setting- competition and conflict between Shinseist monks and/or Fortunist priests on both the political and ideological level can be a great way to involve samurai PCs of many different sorts, since the instigators are "neutral" with respect to the Clan system of Rokugan.

I'm curious if anyone has made heavy usage of sectarian/ecclesiastical politics in their games, or brought the fine points of Shinseist doctrine into play in a material way. I have more thoughts on the topic but would like to hear what others have done or thought of first!

While the writers of the game may have intended Perfect Land Sect to be modeled after the Pure Land School in Buddhism, its persecution in Rokugan is reminiscent of Japanese persecution of the Kakure Krishitans.

For the most part, in my games I have stayed away from the religious strife. Perfect Land in my games is treated more as a curiosity or a "peasant folk" belief rather than an existential threat to the Empire. While NPCs might get all bent out of shape, I try to not get the PCs too involved beyond learning about some of its tenants. I find that players getting too wrapped up in religious squabbles is a distraction from the enjoyment of the game. Maybe that is not what the game designers wanted, but I find that it is much less controversial. I prefer to focus on the failings of people in power and the corruption of power as a motivating factor rather than trying to play up religious strife. Though it could be argue that much of religious strife also occurs because of the corrupting influence of power that holding a position of prestige in a faith can bring.

Anyhow, that is my observation.

Sure, sectarian conflict does pop up in our games from time to time. You have shintaoists chaffing at fortunists, either of them disliking the ancestral orders, any or all of the three going after the "weird orders" like the Fudoists and Henshin, and everyone picking fight with the "clan sponsored orders" like the Asako Healers or the Order of the Venom who are only monks because a Great Clan says so (or at least this is what the "normal" monks say). Then you have shugenja getting caught in the crossfire or becoming targets themselves, and heretics and crazies showing up, and you have a nice big mess ready to explode. And ain't nobody is safe when the kihos start flying!

Thanks for the replies. Having taken a second, more thorough look at the religion section of Emerald Empire, I do see they've gone a good long way toward a more diverse and multipolar approach to Shintao in this edition (cheers to the writers, if they're reading).

Here are some potential doctrinal or institutional conflicts I've come up with, drawn more or less directly from history, along with story seeds to implement them into your games. Hope someone finds them useful or interesting,

* Does enlightenment happen suddenly, in a flash of insight, or gradually, through persistent effort?

- Until last year, the monk known as Sonkyo was a drunken, lecherous ronin known for his scanadalous escapades. After only a few months as an acolyte monk, he claims to have achieved full enlightenment, and gone on to roundly humiliate the venerable abbot of his monastery in a theological debate. Now the community is divided as to whether this upstart is a spiritual prodigy, or simply a clever rascal with a silver tongue.

* Do all beings share the same innate potential for enlightenment?

- The eta quarter of a major city is abuzz. A progressive, some might say "radical" monastery has accepted one of their number as an acolyte, under the principle that all beings have the right and potential to achieve enlightenment. Samurai and even heimin mock these monks, saying they might as well preach to dogs and monkeys. But the impromptu sermons they give on the outskirts of the city are drawing greater and greater numbers of eta, and have begun to take on revolutionary undertones...

- An ex-Kuni who has retired to the monastery has undertaken a grand experiment, or laughable folly, depending on who you ask. He has acquired an infant bakemono, and is rigorously disciplining it in Shinseist pedagogy. Most think him mad- but the creature has learned not just to quote the Tao, but to apply it.

* What does enlightenment actually entail for the destiny of the spirit? Do enlightened souls go to spend eternity in Yomi, ascend to Tengoku, or surpass all these realms and become one with the Void?

- A young Kitsu sodan-senzo has been diligently seeking to make contact with a revered ancestor in Yomi. After many fruitless years, she proclaims that she is unable to reach him because he has transcended Yomi entirely, and that Yomi is merely a superior level in the same world of illusion as Ningen-do. This casts the many ancestors who are easily reachable through sodan-senzo in a less-than-favorable light, and threatens to create a dangerous breach in the Kitsu family order.

* Does the phenomenal world have any substance at all , and therefore, do actions taken there have any significance beyond the subjective experience of them?

- A Mirumoto swordsman of great skill and repute has entered a small town, slaughtered the entire burakumin population, and commanded the heimin there to start butchering their own meat. He says that he's done the burakumin a favor by speeding them toward their next life, and the heimin are not defiled by this work so long as they undertake it in a spirit of detachment. The swordsman has been arrested and is standing trial, but as he has only killed burakumin, and his knowledge of Shinseist scripture is impeccable, the magistrate is struggling to impose a meaningful penalty on him. By all appearances, he truly believes his actions to have been compassionate and in accord with the Tao.

* Was Shinsei a unique figure in history, or simply one of many enlightened souls who happened to play a visible historic role? How many other beings in existence have equalled or surpassed his spiritual status?

- A radical sect of travelling monks have been raiding monasteries simply to destroy all images of Shinsei. They claim that slavish devotion to his image is inimicable to his teachings, and that "the Shintao that can be named or envisioned is not the true Shintao". They melt idols and distribute the gold among the peasantry, and now have the support of much of the rural populace, giving voice to the frustrations of people who watch their religious teachers adorn statues with precious jewels while they themselves toil and starve.

* Can enlightenment, once gained, ever be lost?

- A revered monk, long-known for his holiness and wisdom, has begun travelling the countryside looking for plague-stricken lands. Wherever he goes, he lies with young women, claiming that far from lustfulness this is the bestowal of a transcendent gift. While this has discredited him in the eyes of many, rumors continue to spread that those young women are indeed cured of their pestilence, along with any other who lie with them.

* Is violence ever justifiable, or is all conflict inherently an expression of desire and a source of karma?

- In the Crab lands, a dangerous idea is spreading. Peasant villages, after generations of mere survival, have stopped tilling their fields, but do not rise up in revolt- they simply sit. Torture and execution fail to induce them to labor, and they die with the dignity and resolve of any samurai. The famine has already begun, and the storehouses of the samurai begin to dwindle. Ashigaru levies are being disbanded and sent back to the fields, but some of them, too, have begun to refuse to work- better to die, they say, than to be defiled with the Taint. Samurai who have seen these mere heimin face death and excruciating pain without flinching have begun to question who is truly the superior being.

Thoughts or responses welcome, of course.

I like these! Though "eta" isn't a term to be throwing around. It applies to the real-world burakumin caste, who are still struggling to get out from under centuries-old stigma. Pretty sure that's an n-word level slur.

13 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

I like these! Though "eta" isn't a term to be throwing around. It applies to the real-world burakumin caste, who are still struggling to get out from under centuries-old stigma. Pretty sure that's an n-word level slur.

It is. FFG has made it clear that that term is not acceptable for use in its games or related writings. I was kind of shocked, actually, when I found out just how offensive a word it is, since I've been using it casually since I first got immersed in L5R and its lore back in 96 or 97. So, yeah, let's refer to them as hinin or burakumin.

13 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

I like these! Though "eta" isn't a term to be throwing around. It applies to the real-world burakumin caste, who are still struggling to get out from under centuries-old stigma. Pretty sure that's an n-word level slur.

Glad you found these stimulating, verbage aside. My usual policy when working with historical (or historically-based) settings is to maintain the vocabulary of the times; to do otherwise, to me, risks whitewashing the real horrors of these times and places. (There's a much bigger conversation one could have about the ethics of the samurai genre as a whole, inasmuch as it romanticizes a fascistic caste-based kleptocracy, but that's for another time and place). All that said, since this is indeed an out-of-character document, your point is taken, and the offending vocabulary has been amended. Cheers!

Greetings from the Sands, Evil-Smelling Brother-in-Law of a Camel!

The excerpts comes from the Book of Void (4th) p109-110. As it is 4th edition material, it might not be current.

Before tackling the issues at hands, I will try to answer a question the OP haven't asked but that might be relevant: what is Enlightenment.

"Enlightenment is something no one agrees on, but almost everyone recognizes. Enlightened individuals are clearly and recognizably serene, humble, and compassionate, yet possess an inner strength and stoicism that seems impossible by human standards. An Enlightened soul is wise and insightful, never seems angry or hateful, does not desire anything or cling to anything in the mortal world. Yet Enlightened individuals do not lose their personalities, nor do they “assimilate” into some singular worldview."

Back to the OP questions.

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Does enlightenment happen suddenly, in a flash of insight, or gradually, through persistent effort?

Both have been known to happen.

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Do all beings share the same innate potential for enlightenment?

"It is also known that anyone can become Enlightened. Lineage, status, and station are unnecessary. It may not even be required for one to follow Shinsei’s teachings – Shinsei himself did not have the benefit of his own teachings, after all!"

In 4th lore a nezumi has reached Enlighenment, and a Hinin girl has been chosen to become Oracle of Fire.

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

* What does enlightenment actually entail for the destiny of the spirit? Do enlightened souls go to spend eternity in Yomi, ascend to Tengoku, or surpass all these realms and become one with the Void?

"Those who have awakened have purified themselves of all earthly desires, banished all delusions, and thereby shattered the cycle of reincarnation and worldly suffering."

That's about it, where they go afterward ii is not said.

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Does the phenomenal world have any substance at all , and therefore, do actions taken there have any significance beyond the subjective experience of them?

There is no conclusive lore about it, you will have to decide what apply to your game.

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Was Shinsei a unique figure in history, or simply one of many enlightened souls who happened to play a visible historic role? How many other beings in existence have equalled or surpassed his spiritual status?

Shinsei was unique because he (allegedly) was the first Human to achieve it. Other have been known to follow in its step, including some Grand Master of the Elements, but there are a precious few.

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Can enlightenment, once gained, ever be lost?

I cannot remember an instance of a "fallen enlightened", the closer thing we have is "enlightened madness".

From The Great Clan (4th) p96

"Enlightened Madness is the Dragon Clan’s term for what happens when an individual finds enlightenment but is unable to accept or endure the burden of clarity and truth which it places on the mind and spirit."

"It may be noted, in passing, that Enlightened Madness is not the same thing as normal insanity [...] Rather, Enlightened Madness is a specific response to the unique burdens of the enlightened state. Those who become enlightened attain great spiritual insight, but if they have any imbalances in their soul or body, these can sometimes become magnifi ed to the point of danger"

"Why this afflicts some and not others is not well known—plenty of flawed individuals have attained enlightenment without ill effects"

"Regardless, those who succumb to Enlightened Madness generally live brief and tragic lives, as these poor souls kill themselves or are killed by others during spasms of mad and destructive behavior, spurred by their minds’ inability to fully handle their potent new vision of the world."

"Their heightened perceptions and unbalanced minds may cause them to succumb to the whispered voices of kansen, embracing the Taint and its powers. All of these things and more have befallen those whose minds snapped under the impact of enlightenment."

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Is violence ever justifiable, or is all conflict inherently an expression of desire and a source of karma?

Since Shinsei himself gathered the Seven Thunders to kick Fu-Leng ***, I would suppose some voilence is acceptable.

However, enlightened are said to be serene and compassionate, so I would possit that for enlightened violence isn't the preferred mode of action.

2 hours ago, Lord of the Seal said:

Before tackling the issues at hands, I will try to answer a question the OP haven't asked but that might be relevant: what is Enlightenment.

Me: "What is the meaning of life?"

You: "Webster's dictionary defines 'life' as ' The state of organisms preceding their death , characterized by biological processes such as metabolism and reproduction and distinguishing them from inanimate objects ; the state of being alive and living .'

You've got nothing else in response to a detailed and well thought out response than to mock its introductory paragraph?

There's nothing wrong with first setting out what Enlightenment means in respect to the rest of their answer.

I'd stand in as their champion, if our guest from the Sands wanted to duel you over that insult.

Dear OP,

For once I will not be using my semi-humorous introduction from Pratchett.

You did ask several questions abour enlightenment.

Since enlightenment there is no empirical evidence of enlightenment in Real World, I tried to clarify the debate by using a quote from the rulebook to provide us with a common starting point for the debate.

It goes without saying that, had you made a query on rain or gravity I would not have bothered since I assume we all are well acquaintaned with the concept.

That been said, in my answer I merely tried to:

1. Provide a Recap: I happen to have a large collection of L5R book/pdf and I assume everyone doesn't bother to buy obscure book from previous edition especially new players. I just try to share.

2. Give you my point of view, which you can obviously disregard.

In the end I would like to point out that:

1. This is a public forum. You might not be interested, but it is not all about YOU. The questions were interesting, and might make a good starting point for an adventure. I just try to provide the community, especially the newer player, with a bit of lore.

2. If you do not agree with my views, stay calm, it isn't a problem. You and your group will play the game as you want to play it. No one will care. Neither FFG, nor I, will send a squad of inquisitors into your house to tell you how to play it. As long as your gaming group have fun, well kudos ! That's the point !

3. I have a nasty feeling this thread will end up like your previous Crab/Hiruma thread. Please keep in mind in mind that for most of us it a game, we are doing for leisure, to have fun.

Have a good game, and remember, have fun.

7 minutes ago, Lord of the Seal said:

Dear OP,

You did ask several questions abour enlightenment.

Sorry if that came off a little sharp- but no, I didn't ask any questions about enlightenment. If that was unclear, fair enough, although I think I was pretty explicit about it.

On 4/3/2020 at 12:38 AM, robothedino said:

Here are some potential doctrinal or institutional conflicts I've come up with, drawn more or less directly from history, along with story seeds to implement them into your games. Hope someone finds them useful or interesting,

All of those questions are questions that actual people who believe in the concept of enlightenment have had about it, and that I think that might be questions that at least some Rokugani might have, and therefore act as starting points for stories. The fact that you added some textual references is not an issue, I'm just pointing out that you have (inadvertently, I realize) wildly misconstrued my meaning and put words in my mouth. The question of what the objective, kami's-eye-view of canon reality states is a perfectly fine topic, and I don't even mind that it's showing up in a thread about something else. But if I walked into a conversation about the literary merits of Shakespeare's "Macbeth" and started talking about how there's no historical evidence for any Danish prince by that name, I might like a heads up that I was not having the same conversation as they were.

Thank you Lord of the Seal for that post. I am inclined to agree with you that this is starting to degenerate into a petty bickering match.

I do appreciate you sharing lore with us as it can be difficult at times to search the L5R wiki for an obscure point.

And I will keep in mind that "evil smelling son-in-law of a camel" is your way of telling us you are "in character". Usually I am not in character on forum, but I can appreciate those who do for role-playing purposes.

3 hours ago, neilcell said:

And I will keep in mind that "evil smelling son-in-law of a camel" is your way of telling us you are "in character". Usually I am not in character on forum, but I can appreciate those who do for role-playing purposes.

It’s a Discworld thing. All camels are bastards...

18 hours ago, robothedino said:

Sorry if that came off a little sharp- but no, I didn't ask any questions about enlightenment. If that was unclear, fair enough, although I think I was pretty explicit about it.

At that point I will be quoting you:

On 4/2/2020 at 11:38 PM, robothedino said:

Does enlightenment happen suddenly, in a flash of insight, or gradually, through persistent effort?

Do all beings share the same innate potential for enlightenment?

What does enlightenment actually entail for the destiny of the spirit? Do enlightened souls go to spend eternity in Yomi, ascend to Tengoku, or surpass all these realms and become one with the Void?

Was Shinsei a unique figure in history, or simply one of many enlightened souls who happened to play a visible historic role? How many other beings in existence have equalled or surpassed his spiritual status?

Can enlightenment, once gained, ever be lost?

It seems to me that it is pretty explicit these are questions about enlightenment.

That leads us to:

18 hours ago, robothedino said:

All of those questions are questions that actual people who believe in the concept of enlightenment have had about it, and that I think that might be questions that at least some Rokugani might have, and therefore act as starting points for stories. The fact that you added some textual references is not an issue, I'm just pointing out that you have (inadvertently, I realize) wildly misconstrued my meaning and put words in my mouth.

In case you are unaware this is a forum from a game company, you might want to reassess your expectation here.

More to the point, you posted this thread is the ******* LORE DISCUSSION section, I can not believe I was so insensitive to come up with a bit of Lore. What was I thinking !!!

18 hours ago, robothedino said:

The question of what the objective, kami's-eye-view of canon reality states is a perfectly fine topic, and I don't even mind that it's showing up in a thread about something else. But if I walked into a conversation about the literary merits of Shakespeare's "Macbeth" and started talking about how there's no historical evidence for any Danish prince by that name, I might like a heads up that I was not having the same conversation as they were.

Actually, this is exactly what you are doing. You post questions in (I can not believe I actually have to said that again) the LORE DISCUSSION SECTION OF A GAMING FORUM, and every times people answer you with the lore of the game, you basically tell us: "but historical studies does not prove the correctness of the lore".

You might as well barge into the Star Wars forum, as a question about how gravity works into starships and when given an answer, tell them that it cannot to true because the nonsymmetric gravitational theory of Moffat states otherwise. I am sure they will be very happy about it.

On 4/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, robothedino said:

Does enlightenment happen suddenly, in a flash of insight, or gradually, through persistent effort?

- Until last year, the monk known as Sonkyo was a drunken, lecherous ronin known for his scanadalous escapades. After only a few months as an acolyte monk, he claims to have achieved full enlightenment, and gone on to roundly humiliate the venerable abbot of his monastery in a theological debate. Now the community is divided as to whether this upstart is a spiritual prodigy, or simply a clever rascal with a silver tongue

There's no reason it can't be both. People do have sudden 'road to Damascus/Wonderful life' moments in real life without supernatural intervention, and this is a setting where either the Kami or one's semi-divine Fortune ancestors might appear or otherwise impose their will on the situation to turn around. How common it is is up to the writer or GM for a particular story, I guess.

On 4/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, robothedino said:

Do all beings share the same innate potential for enlightenment?

- The eta quarter of a major city is abuzz. A progressive, some might say "radical" monastery has accepted one of their number as an acolyte, under the principle that all beings have the right and potential to achieve enlightenment. Samurai and even heimin mock these monks, saying they might as well preach to dogs and monkeys. But the impromptu sermons they give on the outskirts of the city are drawing greater and greater numbers of eta, and have begun to take on revolutionary undertones...

- An ex-Kuni who has retired to the monastery has undertaken a grand experiment, or laughable folly, depending on who you ask. He has acquired an infant bakemono, and is rigorously disciplining it in Shinseist pedagogy. Most think him mad- but the creature has learned not just to quote the Tao, but to apply it.

Yes, but not necessarily in this lifetime. To have been born hinin, says the theory, implies a greater weight of karma/sin/earthly desire to work off and transcend. The potential is there, and truly exceptional souls might achieve it (one older adventure had a hinin chosen as the Oracle of an elemental dragon!) but a realistic expectation is to improve one's standing for the next life.

On 4/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Does the phenomenal world have any substance at all , and therefore, do actions taken there have any significance beyond the subjective experience of them?

- A Mirumoto swordsman of great skill and repute has entered a small town, slaughtered the entire burakumin population, and commanded the heimin there to start butchering their own meat. He says that he's done the burakumin a favor by speeding them toward their next life, and the heimin are not defiled by this work so long as they undertake it in a spirit of detachment. The swordsman has been arrested and is standing trial, but as he has only killed burakumin, and his knowledge of Shinseist scripture is impeccable, the magistrate is struggling to impose a meaningful penalty on him. By all appearances, he truly believes his actions to have been compassionate and in accord with the Tao.

Handling the dead is almost always spiritually disruptive, and if the heimin's souls were able to maintain a truly zen spirit of detachment, the magistrate could argue, they wouldn't have been born heimin. The swordsman therefore holds culpability for ordering them to experience that.

Speeding them to their next life is all well and good but since the purpose of lives is to reach toward enlightenment you have interrupted their spiritual growth and prevented them achieving what (admittedly limited) potential they could have reached, instead leaving them dying in fear. The swordsman therefore holds culpability for that, too.

Finally, the Celestial Order and hence temporal law and the theological model of the universe are supposed to match (within the limits of human fallibility) - those hinin were most likely not the samurai's vassals but someone else's. Removing those vassals is stealing from that Lord, impoverishing them and inflicting suffering on their other vassals, and/or reducing that Lord's ability to discharge their duties to THEIR Lord. The swordsman therefore holds culpability for that, too.

On 4/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Was Shinsei a unique figure in history, or simply one of many enlightened souls who happened to play a visible historic role? How many other beings in existence have equalled or surpassed his spiritual status?

- A radical sect of travelling monks have been raiding monasteries simply to destroy all images of Shinsei. They claim that slavish devotion to his image is inimicable to his teachings, and that "the Shintao that can be named or envisioned is not the true Shintao". They melt idols and distribute the gold among the peasantry, and now have the support of much of the rural populace, giving voice to the frustrations of people who watch their religious teachers adorn statues with precious jewels while they themselves toil and starve.

We don't know for definite, but both the perfect land sect and the prophecy of the second day of thunder imply Shinsei can be 'reborn' so I'd assume no, he's not completely unique.

On 4/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, robothedino said:

Can enlightenment, once gained, ever be lost?

- A revered monk, long-known for his holiness and wisdom, has begun travelling the countryside looking for plague-stricken lands. Wherever he goes, he lies with young women, claiming that far from lustfulness this is the bestowal of a transcendent gift. While this has discredited him in the eyes of many, rumors continue to spread that those young women are indeed cured of their pestilence, along with any other who lie with them

Yes. The Kami in heaven are definitionally enlightened in Rokugani Theology. Fu Leng was one. Now he isn't.

On 4/2/2020 at 10:38 PM, robothedino said:

* Is violence ever justifiable, or is all conflict inherently an expression of desire and a source of karma?

- In the Crab lands, a dangerous idea is spreading. Peasant villages, after generations of mere survival, have stopped tilling their fields, but do not rise up in revolt- they simply sit. Torture and execution fail to induce them to labor, and they die with the dignity and resolve of any samurai. The famine has already begun, and the storehouses of the samurai begin to dwindle. Ashigaru levies are being disbanded and sent back to the fields, but some of them, too, have begun to refuse to work- better to die, they say, than to be defiled with the Taint. Samurai who have seen these mere heimin face death and excruciating pain without flinching have begun to question who is truly the superior being

Reluctantly, yes. The mortal world is imperfect, and Shinsei himself used violence - not just against Fu Leng, but at one point against a couple of the Emperor's guards to illustrate a point and get Hantei to take him seriously.

On 4/6/2020 at 2:48 AM, Magnus Grendel said:

Shinsei himself used violence - not just against Fu Leng, but at one point against a couple of the Emperor's guards to illustrate a point and get Hantei to take him seriously.

It's called "teaching him a lesson" 😉

My, no need to get agitated here.

@robothedino Thank you for your list of realistic religious disagreements. They sound like nice starting points for side adventures with a more philosophically inclined group.

And thank you, @Lord of the Seal , for one possible set of answers to those questions. They provide nice possible positions with their explanations thst e.g. an in-game authority like a priest or daimyo might take.

I found both posts useful.