Howdy everyone,

I'm currently having an argument with someone over the talent, Double or Nothing supreme. They are sure that the triumph doesn't count as a success and I'm sure I remember hearing somewhere that unless the talent calls it out, that it does.

Does anyone have something that can clear this deadlock one way or another?

Thank you.

page 23 edge of the Empire. Triumph counts as a success.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

page 23 edge of the Empire. Triumph counts as a success.

The question comes in as to whether or not the Triumph generated by the talent is simply the effect or if it also grants the Success.

I do not believe it would actually include the success, as a comparable talent, Showboat, specifically states that the Despair/Triumph added through the talent do not add Failure/Success. If when reading the full text of the talent, it doesn't state this, then it probably includes the Success from a strictly legal standpoint, though I believe that the spirit of the law would not add the Success, as the check must succeed in the first place, correct? It seems odd to me that it would add success to a successful check, as to my knowledge there are no talents that do this (with the exception of Knowledge Specialization, which is an interesting niche specifically for a category of checks [Knowledge checks] and requires a Triumph).

There is no errata that states that it doesn't add the Success.

Likewise, there is no errata that states that the Despair doesn't add a Failure.

Supreme Double or Nothing, from page 29 of “Fly Casual”, says (and I quote):

Quote

When performing the Double or Nothing incidental, also double the number of [Triumph] and [Despair].

So, technically it’s not “adding” them, it’s telling you to double them.

So, in the absence of any other indication, that seems clear to me that you would double them in all respects, including the [Success] or [Failure] results that are normally included as a part of the [Triumph] or [Despair].

EDIT: Now, that’s just my personal opinion. It’s not like I’m one of the FFG Developers, or anything.

32 minutes ago, bradknowles said:

Supreme Double or Nothing, from page 29 of “Fly Casual”, says (and I quote):

So, technically it’s not “adding” them, it’s telling you to double them.

So, in the absence of any other indication, that seems clear to me that you would double them in all respects, including the [Success] or [Failure] results that are normally included as a part of the [Triumph] or [Despair].

EDIT: Now, that’s just my personal opinion. It’s not like I’m one of the FFG Developers, or anything.

Aha...

That's what comes from not actually having the book. (Rereading my comment, I apparently forgot to explicitly state that, but I did allude to it)

If it does not state that it doesn't add Success/Failure, then I agree with you, with the caveat I stated regarding spirit of the law.

Anyone mind sharing the full text of the talent from the Talents pages in FC?

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Aha...

That's what comes from not actually having the book. (Rereading my comment, I apparently forgot to explicitly state that, but I did allude to it)

If it does not state that it doesn't add Success/Failure, then I agree with you, with the caveat I stated regarding spirit of the law.

Anyone mind sharing the full text of the talent from the Talents pages in FC?

This is the full official text from page 32:

DOUBLE OR NOTHING (SUPREME)
Activation: Passive
Ranked: No
Trees: Gambler
When performing the Double or Nothing incidental, the character also doubles the number of [Triumph] and [Despair].

EDIT: Do I need to give you a scan from the book?

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Aha...

That's what comes from not actually having the book. (Rereading my comment, I apparently forgot to explicitly state that, but I did allude to it)

If it does not state that it doesn't add Success/Failure, then I agree with you, with the caveat I stated regarding spirit of the law.

Anyone mind sharing the full text of the talent from the Talents pages in FC?

See https://imgur.com/gallery/rbRBGYv

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The question comes in as to whether or not the Triumph generated by the talent is simply the effect or if it also grants the Success.

I do not believe it would actually include the success, as a comparable talent, Showboat, specifically states that the Despair/Triumph added through the talent do not add Failure/Success. If when reading the full text of the talent, it doesn't state this, then it probably includes the Success from a strictly legal standpoint, though I believe that the spirit of the law would not add the Success, as the check must succeed in the first place, correct? It seems odd to me that it would add success to a successful check, as to my knowledge there are no talents that do this (with the exception of Knowledge Specialization, which is an interesting niche specifically for a category of checks [Knowledge checks] and requires a Triumph).

When they define antriumph they say it includes a success. Why would.they alter that definition and not tell us?

10 hours ago, bradknowles said:

This is the full official text from page 32:

DOUBLE OR NOTHING (SUPREME)
Activation: Passive
Ranked: No
Trees: Gambler
When performing the Double or Nothing incidental, the character also doubles the number of [Triumph] and [Despair].

EDIT: Do I need to give you a scan from the book?

Sorry, I meant the full set of talents, basic, improved, and supreme. Sorry for the confusion.

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

When they define antriumph they say it includes a success. Why would.they alter that definition and not tell us?

I didn't say they did. I'm not familiar with the talent, so based on a similar talent in a book that I believe came later, I was making suggestions as to intent. Legally speaking, I'm pretty sure it includes the Success since it didn't state that it does not.

4 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Sorry, I meant the full set of talents, basic, improved, and supreme. Sorry for the confusion.

Okay, I’ll do that later this evening.

4 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Sorry, I meant the full set of talents, basic, improved, and supreme. Sorry for the confusion.

I didn't say they did. I'm not familiar with the talent, so based on a similar talent in a book that I believe came later, I was making suggestions as to intent. Legally speaking, I'm pretty sure it includes the Success since it didn't state that it does not.

I do have to question why you would think a triumph does not include the success? the definition of triumph says it includes a success. I would think they specifically would say it doesn't include the success if it didn't. but that would not be KISS,

40 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I do have to question why you would think a triumph does not include the success? the definition of triumph says it includes a success. I would think they specifically would say it doesn't include the success if it didn't. but that would not be KISS,

The die face for the Triumph also awards a success, but that success is then independent of the Triumph. It can be canceled without impacting the spending of the Triumph, and the spending of the Triump does not cost any measure of Success.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

The die face for the Triumph also awards a success, but that success is then independent of the Triumph. It can be canceled without impacting the spending of the Triumph, and the spending of the Triump does not cost any measure of Success.

Sure. But no where does it say that when you add a triumph to a check that the success is not there. At least in the talents I have seen. So I dont know why anyone would think those triumphs generated by the talent wouldn't have the success.

17 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Sure. But no where does it say that when you add a triumph to a check that the success is not there. At least in the talents I have seen. So I dont know why anyone would think those triumphs generated by the talent wouldn't have the success.

21 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Showboat, specifically states that the Despair/Triumph added through the talent do not add Failure/Success.

From my earlier comment (Stay on Target page 33, Hotshot specialization).

28 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

From my earlier comment (Stay on Target page 33, Hotshot specialization).

So in other words if it is not going to include the success or failure it will specifically say so in the talent.

41 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So in other words if it is not going to include the success or failure it will specifically say so in the talent.

Unless I am mistaken, Stay on Target came out after Fly Casual, correct? If so, then Showboat does not serve as precedent as it did not precede Double-or-Nothing. Plus, different writers can end up with different ways of saying more-or-less the same thing, some more specific than others. It is possible that the writer of Showboat took lessons from the confusion over DoN and was more specific, or was simply of a more specific bent to begin with, thus not proving the question either way. I'm using it as a potential indication of intent, not as precedent or contradiction.

2 hours ago, Daeglan said:

So in other words if it is not going to include the success or failure it will specifically say so in the talent.

Not at all; in simple words, it means FFG is crap at writing clear & consistent rules text.

18 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Not at all; in simple words, it means FFG is crap at writing clear & consistent rules text.

So your premise is that it is always triumph with no success rather than the one time they say so is the exception? that is weird interpretation. Especially when a dev in here said other wise.

1 hour ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Unless I am mistaken, Stay on Target came out after Fly Casual, correct? If so, then Showboat does not serve as precedent as it did not precede Double-or-Nothing. Plus, different writers can end up with different ways of saying more-or-less the same thing, some more specific than others. It is possible that the writer of Showboat took lessons from the confusion over DoN and was more specific, or was simply of a more specific bent to begin with, thus not proving the question either way. I'm using it as a potential indication of intent, not as precedent or contradiction.

Incorrect. Fly casual came after Stay on Target. Also Valuable Facts does not have that language. in either Desperate Allies or Rise of the Seperatists

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Incorrect. Fly casual came after Stay on Target. Also Valuable Facts does not have that language. in either Desperate Allies or Rise of the Seperatists

Okay, I stand corrected then. Either they were just inconsistent, or adding a Success/Failure is the proper legal interpretation and the intent.

I think it would make more sense if it just added the effect of a Triumph, but that's just my opinion.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Okay, I stand corrected then. Either they were just inconsistent, or adding a Success/Failure is the proper legal interpretation and the intent.

I think it would make more sense if it just added the effect of a Triumph, but that's just my opinion.

Well given that the triumph description specifically says it includes a success I always would assume it adds the success as well. which could be cancelled out by failures. that to me seems like the KISS way they went with. as they specifically called it out in one place and did not in other places. FFG has been in my experience consistent in noting exceptions.