2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

[...]

And the odd thing is that this means all the CW upgrades are full-card sized (2.5"x3.5").

We're not seeing draft cards (though it is entirely possible they could change c.f. I5 Windu in X-Wing). We're seeing something entirely new.

The only question is why?

One reason could be that it's easier to print standard sized cards than it is to print the mini cards. Optimistically, I'm hoping this points to card packs being a thing. They've expressed interest in wanting to do it for Armada (already do it for X-Wing & Legion), and they seem to be following the same patterns in Armada that X-Wing & Legion already established for the introduction of new factions.

This is speculation, but if they do want to do card packs, and if they print them on standard card size, I imagine they could even print them locally (like they do with tournament prizes, I believe). That would bring the turnaround time down significantly. And since they've already said (paraphrasing) that the thing they love most about Armada fans is how loyal they are and how they can be counted on to buy up e v e r y t h i n g that gets put out (see the constant need for reprints), the sooner they can get product in front of us (and in greater numbers!), the more they can reliably bank off of us. Especially on something likely likely has a very low overhead in card packs, double especially if the cards in the packs are already being developed for other expansions (e.g., CW ships).

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It's not just the font size and kerning; the whole framing and formatting is off, and the aspect ratio is different. The font is almost exactly half the size of the other cards when sized the same. Assuming the font actually is the same, we have a double-sized card.

And the odd thing is that this means all the CW upgrades are full-card sized (2.5"x3.5").

We're not seeing draft cards (though it is entirely possible they could change c.f. I5 Windu in X-Wing). We're seeing something entirely new.

The only question is why?

I noticed the dimensions of the card were off too when I resized the Obi-Wan Kenobi card to 300 px in height to match the others. I recall Crabbok mentioned in his video that he noticed the Clone Wars cards looked different and he speculated that FFG might be changing to standard-size cards for CWA, similar to what they did for X-Wing 2nd Edition.

Assuming that is the case, that still presents a problem with the font being wrong. It should be scaled up with the larger card. That's what happened with XW2E cards:

The card on the right is the old X-Wing Fire-Control System card, the card on the left is the new X-Wing 2nd Edition Fire-Control System card (the card's ability was revised). The font size on the XW2E card is clearly larger so it's easier to read, and it's aligned to centre. It is aesthetically pleasing . FFG did a great job! (Although why the 2nd Edition cards are oriented horizontally... I have no clue. It seems like whatever was gained by up-sizing the cards was immediately lost by turning them sideways. Was it really necessary for the card type symbols to be that large? <sigh>)

Returning to Armada: Again, assuming the Clone Wars upgrade card sizes are being increased to Standard Card Size, I agree , the question is WHY? 🤨

Who asked for this? What is the point?

Presumably, the Mini-American cards are slightly cheaper than Standard size cards; therefore, increasing the upgrade cards to standard size would consequently increase the production cost. It's unlikely that FFG is just going to eat that extra cost, especially with Asmodee being on the warpath firing people and cutting costs. Therefore, any increase in production costs would be passed on to customers by increasing the MSRP of Clone Wars Armada core sets and expansion packs. Thanks a lot , FFG! 😡

That would also mean that Armada players will have to adapt to the new size cards. For some of us, that means buying different card sleeves, card boxes, card sleeve pages and/or card folios. It also means the Armada players who bought card/token trays (from Etsy or the like), the upgrade card trays won't hold the larger upgrade cards. And those are just what I can think of off the top of my head -- there are probably countless little problems that a card size change will cause. Is it really worth all the hassle?

Again, assuming that's what is happening with Clone Wars Armada.

It would've been nice if FFG had mentioned this -- or, better yet, polled the Armada community to determine if we wanted the upgrade cards up-sized to standard size. I wouldn't have been automatically opposed to the idea, except I would want to know what the pros and cons of changing to standard size cards would be.

For example, IF an upgrade card size change means that FFG intends to reprint ALL of the existing Armada upgrade cards in the larger size, and plans to revise those cards with the Errata changes, as well as re-balance the points (most important for Commander cards), then that would make the change worthwhile and I'd support it wholeheartedly.

45 minutes ago, Alzer said:

Except I can take Wulf, Grint, and Hondo with Motti for the same points and have an appreciably similar effect PLUS more hull.

And you're occupying three officer seats.

4 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

I don't think that you can ignore the opportunity cost of the slots. If you if ignored Tarkin's opportunity cost you could provide better token generation for your fleet with Vanto, Wulff and Grint. But that's three officer slots.

Massed EST means no Lando, Toryn Farr, Leia, Agate (for rebels as an example, we don't what Republic officers we'll see of course).

It's kinda an apples vs. oranges comparison because Obi-Wan still allows the Redirect ability to be used while reducing 1 damage, whereas EST just reduces 1 damage. EST is generally only used to allow a ship to shrug off 1 damage instead of Redirecting that 1 damage. I doubt many players use EST to reduce 4 damage to 3, rather than Redirect that damage to another shield. Obi-Wan provides the benefit of both EST and Redirect, so in a way it's more like Major Derlin than EST, except that Major Derlin is a unique officer and can't be equipped on multiple ships.

There's no doubt that Obi-Wan's Commander ability is incredibly powerful. It could be OP'd for only 28 points. I wouldn't be surprised if his points cost was adjusted or his ability modified. If not before the cards are printed and CWA is released, then probably in an Errata someday. I'd prefer if FFG gets it right the first time.

18 minutes ago, Reavern said:

It's kinda an apples vs. oranges comparison because Obi-Wan still allows the Redirect ability to be used while reducing 1 damage, whereas EST just reduces 1 damage. Obi-Wan is basically Expert Shield Techs combined with Major Derlin for every ship. That's 12 points per ship, so with just 3 ships, you're already coming out ahead.

How is Obi-Wan like EST combined with Major Derlin for every ship? (I could be wrong, but I don’t see how it reduces damage by two).

24 minutes ago, Reavern said:

There's no doubt that Obi-Wan's Commander ability is incredibly powerful. It could be OP'd for only 28 points. I wouldn't be surprised if his points cost was adjusted or his ability modified. If not before the cards are printed and CWA is released, then probably in an Errata someday. I'd prefer if FFG gets it right the first time.

Let’s please at least get Clone Wars ships/squads on the table before we start calling the upgrade cards OP.

1 hour ago, Admiral Calkins said:

How is Obi-Wan like EST combined with Major Derlin for every ship? (I could be wrong, but I don’t see how it reduces damage by two).

I was thinking of a different card than EST. (**** acronyms.)

1 hour ago, Admiral Calkins said:

Let’s please at least get Clone Wars ships/squads on the table before we start calling the upgrade cards OP.

Obi-Wan's ability is fairly straight forward so we hardly need to "wait and see". The only factor is which Republic ships will have Redirect tokens, and how many?

For example, if the Venator has 3 Redirect tokens, Obi-Wan's ability would be VERY OP . Whereas if the Venator has one Redirect and somehow it's the only Republic ship with Redirect, then Obi-Wan's ability would be very weak and under-used.

And Obi-Wan's ability doesn't benefit squadrons at all, so there's no speculation required for that aspect.

4 minutes ago, Reavern said:

I could be wrong , but Major Derlin's card reduces total damage by 1 , not 2.

Please reread what you wrote. You stated Obi-Wan is basically EST (reduce damage by 1 using a Redirect) combined with Major Derlin (reduces damage by one). 1+1 is 2. I think you were doing a better job of explaining his ability as an EST that allowed you still still use a readied Redirect.

6 minutes ago, Admiral Calkins said:

Please reread what you wrote. You stated Obi-Wan is basically EST (reduce damage by 1 using a Redirect) combined with Major Derlin (reduces damage by one). 1+1 is 2. I think you were doing a better job of explaining his ability as an EST that allowed you still still use a readied Redirect.

I'm working from home and got interrupted mid-post by work stuff, and lost my train of thought. I corrected my original post:

2 hours ago, Reavern said:

It's kinda an apples vs. oranges comparison because Obi-Wan still allows the Redirect ability to be used while reducing 1 damage, whereas EST just reduces 1 damage. EST is generally only used to allow a ship to shrug off 1 damage instead of Redirecting that 1 damage. I doubt many players use EST to reduce 4 damage to 3, rather than Redirect that damage to another shield. Obi-Wan provides the benefit of both EST and Redirect, so in a way it's more like Major Derlin than EST, except that Major Derlin is a unique officer and can't be equipped on multiple ships.

3 hours ago, Reavern said:

Presumably, the Mini-American cards are slightly cheaper than Standard size cards; therefore, increasing the upgrade cards to standard size would consequently increase the production cost. It's unlikely that FFG is just going to eat that extra cost, especially with Asmodee being on the warpath firing people and cutting costs. Therefore, any increase in production costs would be passed on to customers by increasing the MSRP of Clone Wars Armada core sets and expansion packs. Thanks a lot , FFG! 😡

That would also mean that Armada players will have to adapt to the new size cards. For some of us, that means buying different card sleeves, card boxes, card sleeve pages and/or card folios. It also means the Armada players who bought card/token trays (from Etsy or the like), the upgrade card trays won't hold the larger upgrade cards. And those are just what I can think of off the top of my head -- there are probably countless little problems that a card size change will cause. Is it really worth all the hassle?

That is a significant presumption.

I would assume, if such a change is being made, it is being made because it's cheaper (standardized size between Armada upgrades and squadrons with X-wing and Legion.) Increasing cost of production for its own sake is not a logical choice for FFG when they can just arbitrarily raise costs, like Wave 8 just did.

And, regardless of whether standardizing card sizes is actually the reason (though again, if it's happening, that's likely why) I would welcome the change. I already have much of what I would need to store them, because many Armada cards are already this size. And because it's the normal size for collectable card games, it's easier to get what you need for storage.

I bought my 16-slot binder pages for upgrades loose, while in freaking Britain , because I have yet to enter a FLGS that carries them.

I really hope they are upsizing upgrades, even with a cost to table space.

1 hour ago, Reavern said:

I was thinking of a different card than EST. (**** acronyms.)

Obi-Wan's ability is fairly straight forward so we hardly need to "wait and see". The only factor is which Republic ships will have Redirect tokens, and how many?

For example, if the Venator has 3 Redirect tokens, Obi-Wan's ability would be VERY OP . Whereas if the Venator has one Redirect and somehow it's the only Republic ship with Redirect, then Obi-Wan's ability would be very weak and under-used.

And Obi-Wan's ability doesn't benefit squadrons at all, so there's no speculation required for that aspect.

Please read what other people write before you start typing (or correcting/adding to what you previously wrote). You contradicted the “wait and see” request in your own argument by saying that it depends on what Republic ships have Redirects and how many.

And of course Obi-Wan’s ability doesn’t benefit squadrons. Good thing I didn’t write that it did. 😉

59 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

That is a significant presumption.

I would assume, if such a change is being made, it is being made because it's cheaper (standardized size between Armada upgrades and squadrons with X-wing and Legion.) Increasing cost of production for its own sake is not a logical choice for FFG when they can just arbitrarily raise costs, like Wave 8 just did.

Why would FFG choose 3 different card sizes in the first place for Armada, X-Wing, and Legion if it was cheapest to only use one size card? And why change it now?

Mini-American size cards are used for the most numerous types of cards in Armada and Legion, and formerly X-Wing. The most logical reason for choosing the smallest size card for the most numerous type of cards in those games is if it was to minimize production cost. The larger the card, the more paper/cardboard and ink required to produce them, and the fewer that can be fit in a package, on a pallet, and in shipping container; therefore, smaller cards should always be more economical.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for FFG to make a change that would increase the production cost of its products.

The only other explanation I can think of is they wanted larger cards for a larger canvas for the artwork on the cards. Perhaps the Mini-American size cards were too limiting?

FFG has been raising the prices of all its board games for the past year or so, presumably to increase profits and most likely mandated by Asmodee (because greed ).

Regardless, if FFG is changing the upgrade card size for CWA, it will affect standard Armada going forward. Republic and Separatist factions are supposed to be playable against the Empire and Rebels, and presumably the Republic and Separatist ships can equip the faction-neutral upgrade cards; like equipping Spinal Armament on a CIS Munificent star frigate. That would mean mingling Armada's Mini-American size upgrade cards with CWA's supposedly Standard size upgrade cards. #boardgameproblems

There's also the question: Does this mean that a possible Armada Wave 9 will have Standard size upgrade cards? Or will Armada stick with the Mini-Americans?Rather than doing that, it seems more likely that FFG will reprint all Armada upgrade cards in the new Standard size format -- as I speculated earlier. That could mean that FFG plans on releasing Armada "conversion kits" like they did with X-Wing Second Edition.

This could all be a cynical scheme to milk Armada's customer base for more $$! 😡

If FFG actually TOLD US what was going on, then we wouldn't have to speculate and argue. But communications has never been FFG's strong suit.

4 hours ago, Reavern said:

There's no doubt that Obi-Wan's Commander ability is incredibly powerful. It could be OP'd for only 28 points. I wouldn't be surprised if his points cost was adjusted or his ability modified. If not before the cards are printed and CWA is released, then probably in an Errata someday.

I'd be pretty surprised, personally. Until we see the ships, I don't think rampant crazy speculation helps anyone, but whatever, you do you.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I'd be pretty surprised, personally. Until we see the ships, I don't think rampant crazy speculation helps anyone, but whatever, you do you.

No speculating... on a forum... about a game scheduled to be released later this year. Interesting .

To me, this just seems like more deferential aversion to questioning or criticizing anything that FFG does.

5 minutes ago, Reavern said:

No speculating... on a forum... about a game scheduled to be released later this year. Interesting .

To me, this just seems like more deferential aversion to questioning or criticizing anything that FFG does.

Theres speculating and theres whatever acid trip yelling you're doing about how FFG's official cards released officially from an official FFG employee "dont look right" and "give you a sad" because something something kerning?

If you took a different tact, didnt come in like you knew everything, didnt call everyone sheep, and didnt act so conceited, maaaaaaybe we'd be willing to entertain your ideas. But baa, that's a dumb idea right?

I really hope they aren’t changing the size of the upgrade cards for admittedly selfish reasons. I’ve bought a bunch of mini card sleeves and binder pages that would serve no purpose. Plus it just won’t look right to me, 2 factions have mini cards and two factions have standard size...that will trigger my ocd for sure.

14 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I’ve bought a bunch of mini card sleeves and binder pages that would serve no purpose

Unless they're storing cards right now, in which case they're perfectly practical.

Also, didn't you say a while back you'd be leaving when CW came out? I don't want that to be true, but if it is those sleeves and pages were going to be wasted anyway.

And if it isn't, buy some more Liberties for the spinal armament and whatnot. Because they sure aren't going to make existing cards unplayable.

58 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Why would FFG choose 3 different card sizes in the first place for Armada, X-Wing, and Legion if it was cheapest to only use one size card? And why change it now?

Mini-American size cards are used for the most numerous types of cards in Armada and Legion, and formerly X-Wing. The most logical reason for choosing the smallest size card for the most numerous type of cards in those games is if it was to minimize production cost. The larger the card, the more paper/cardboard and ink required to produce them, and the fewer that can be fit in a package, on a pallet, and in shipping container; therefore, smaller cards should always be more economical.

I agree that it doesn't make sense for FFG to make a change that would increase the production cost of its products.

The only other explanation I can think of is they wanted larger cards for a larger canvas for the artwork on the cards. Perhaps the Mini-American size cards were too limiting?

FFG has been raising the prices of all its board games for the past year or so, presumably to increase profits and most likely mandated by Asmodee (because greed ).

Regardless, if FFG is changing the upgrade card size for CWA, it will affect standard Armada going forward. Republic and Separatist factions are supposed to be playable against the Empire and Rebels, and presumably the Republic and Separatist ships can equip the faction-neutral upgrade cards; like equipping Spinal Armament on a CIS Munificent star frigate. That would mean mingling Armada's Mini-American size upgrade cards with CWA's supposedly Standard size upgrade cards. #boardgameproblems

There's also the question: Does this mean that a possible Armada Wave 9 will have Standard size upgrade cards? Or will Armada stick with the Mini-Americans?Rather than doing that, it seems more likely that FFG will reprint all Armada upgrade cards in the new Standard size format -- as I speculated earlier. That could mean that FFG plans on releasing Armada "conversion kits" like they did with X-Wing Second Edition.

This could all be a cynical scheme to milk Armada's customer base for more $$! 😡

If FFG actually TOLD US what was going on, then we wouldn't have to speculate and argue. But communications has never been FFG's strong suit.

DoD force architecture assessments don't have this many assumptions, and they're about the future 15-30 years from now. How do you do it?

19 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Theres speculating and theres whatever acid trip yelling you're doing about how FFG's official cards released officially from an official FFG employee "dont look right" and "give you a sad" because something something kerning?

If you took a different tact, didnt come in like you knew everything, didnt call everyone sheep, and didnt act so conceited, maaaaaaybe we'd be willing to entertain your ideas. But baa, that's a dumb idea right?

So the fact that I noticed there was something different about those 4 Clone Wars upgrade cards and I alone spoke up about, whereas the rest of you just said "Thank you SO much, FFG" and either didn't notice the differences in the CW cards, or chose not to say anything.

You may call that tact . I call that deferential behaviour. Look it up.

I don't need or want validation from you or anyone else. If I did, do you think I'd write what I write, how I write it? 😆

I write my posts to provide information, advice, or feedback to others, and to express my own ideas and opinions. That is what a forum is for; it's literally the definition of a forum .

3 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

DoD force architecture assessments don't have this many assumptions, and they're about the future 15-30 years from now. How do you do it?

Simple: I use my brain.

Try it some time.

Deference (per Merriam Webster): respect and esteem due a superior or an elder

Not sure what about that is so wrong.

4 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Simple: I use my brain.

Try it some time.

54 minutes ago, Reavern said:

Why would FFG choose 3 different card sizes in the first place for Armada, X-Wing, and Legion if it was cheapest to only use one size card? And why change it now?

Mini-American size cards are used for the most numerous types of cards in Armada and Legion, and formerly X-Wing. The most logical reason for choosing the smallest size card for the most numerous type of cards in those games is if it was to minimize production cost. The larger the card, the more paper/cardboard and ink required to produce them, and the fewer that can be fit in a package, on a pallet, and in shipping container; therefore, smaller cards should always be more economical.

Because with the release of Legion, they're printing a sufficient number of cards for it to be cost-effective now and everything will go this way (Legion's still relatively new, after all.)

Or because with Covid-19 crippling a bunch of industries, they're trying to simplify production/keep it in-house now for futureproofing.

Or because there's an internal event we're not privy to (some contract expired with a printing service, price change for those dimensions, etc.)

The more specific speculation gets, the more likely it is to be incorrect.

1 minute ago, Reavern said:

So the fact that I noticed there was something different about those 4 Clone Wars upgrade cards and I alone spoke up about, whereas the rest of you just said "Thank you SO much, FFG" and either didn't notice the differences in the CW cards, or chose not to say anything.

You may call that tact . I call that deferential behaviour. Look it up.

I don't need or want validation from you or anyone else. If I did, do you think I'd write what I write, how I write it? 😆

I write my posts to provide information, advice, or feedback to others, and to express my own ideas and opinions. That is what a forum is for; it's literally the definition of a forum .

The first definition for deference in my search engine:

Submission or courteous respect given to another, often in recognition of authority. synonym: honor.

Yeah, I'll agree with that: I defer to people with more information than me in a given area, that I trust.

Why do I trust them? Because I've playtested product in the past for FFG (a good few people have, in fact) and while I don't always agree with the devs, we worked closely with them and they care about what they do.

You are highly uninformed. That's normal and fine (we all are to an extent), but the degree of confidence and attitude you brandish with that is... really kind of sad.

You should consider, if not outright deference, a dose of humility.

6 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

The first definition for deference in my search engine:

Submission or courteous respect given to another, often in recognition of authority. synonym: honor.

Yeah, I'll agree with that: I defer to people with more information than me in a given area, that I trust.

Why do I trust them? Because I've playtested product in the past for FFG (a good few people have, in fact) and while I don't always agree with the devs, we worked closely with them and they care about what they do.

You are highly uninformed. That's normal and fine (we all are to an extent), but the degree of confidence and attitude you brandish with that is... really kind of sad.

You should consider, if not outright deference, a dose of humility.

Ordinarily I just like things. This calls for a full-up repost.

Admiral Nelson.... is that you?

What dod you do to your hair?

As to different card sizes:


Yea, with X-Wing and other games they've been trying to reduce the amount of different sizes of cards and components they have. Probably eases design and production and selling storage solutions. Also, allegedly, a lot of people used to hate those tiny upgrade-sized cards and praise the larger, standard sizes now used in X-Wing.

The horizontal orientation in X-Wing is so that the part with the icon and no text can be tucked under the upgrade next to it. So if you have a ship with five upgrades, only a portion of all five cards needs to be revealed and the line stretching across your table edge isn't too long.


Re: production costs going up -- I'm not sure if larger cards are more or less expensive for FFG to produce, but there will almost certainly be a price increase with Clone Wars stuff. When X-Wing 2.0 came out, they raised the price of every size of product (small ship, medium ship, large ship, mega-large ship, and epic ships all had a price increase). Everything other than the Core Set become more expensive, and they cited inflation and increased costs of production and materials. So I would expect similar price bumps to future Armada releases (e.g. $15 ships in X-Wing are now $20, $20 ships are now $30, $30 ships are now $40, $40 ships are now $50, etc.). My best rampant speculation for future Armada releases would be to retain the the $100 price point for the CW Starter, but then the cheapest small ships and squadrons would be $30 and everything else would scale up from there by at least $10.