1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Done.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Reminder also that empty upgrade slots are always worth 0. That's a rule we've learned to not mess with over history - its gotten soooo many ship's balance wrong over the years. If they aren't worth 0, which in some cases is true and live in 2.0, the upgrades themselves are generally cheaper than they should be.

25 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

I get your point. They *used to* pay - and I'm thinking mostly about Scyks here, as a Scum main. Scyks used to be more expensive - they effectively paid a tax for that hardpoint slot. And they never saw any table time because at that price point they couldn't reliably recoup their cost before being destroyed. *And* that was before you loaded them up with any kind of secondary weapon. Now that they are cheaper, now that the hardpoint tax has been removed, you do sometimes see them, albeit frequently naked, or at most with the cheapest option for a load-out. The expensive, truly effective munitions are still not used because a Scyk is still liable to be one-shotted off the board before it can deliver its payload.

I think there's two parts to the equation... A tax on slots seems potentially fine... if it's deliberately offset with a rebate on upgrades.

Most upgrades don't have those rebates.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

I wish we had this in the system. That's clean and makes a lot of sense.

Also mathematically it can make a lot of sense too: sometimes adding certain upgrades really doesn't improve the value from the chassis as much as the actual cost.
Reduction values (Payload X) though should be variable and done on the app, not printed.
I'd probably make them an upgrade card/ex-"ship-qualities" at this point, just to make things easy.

Personally, I'd put such keywords as a line-item on the points charts.

There could theoretically be a bunch of them.

• Elite: Talents reduced
• Spacious: Crew and Gunner reduced
• Droid Interface: Tactical Relay and Astromechs reduced
• Advanced Avionics: Sensor and Tech reduced
• Customizable: Illicit and Modification reduced
• Laser Reroute Circuits: Cannon and Turret reduced
• Extra Munitions: Torpedo, Missile, Payload reduced

It'd add an interesting balance lever, too. If they felt TIE Fighters or A-Wings couldn't be buffed in base price, they could get Elite for cheaper talents. Maybe B-Wings get Advanced Avionics, to allow them to afford the Advanced Sensors they'd love, but which can't be priced too low, due to abuse on other ships (but also FCS and Passive Sensors play nice with the S-Foils title or Torpedoes).

Arguably, that'd be too many levers and dials they could toggle and turn, but it'd be interesting.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Look, the K-wing doesn't look right: for 4 more points you get the Arc? no way.

Reminder that 3 attack dice is priced a LOT higher than 2.

ARC to Scum YT-1300 is a comparison that comes out a lot better for the ARC, IMHO.

43 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

Back to the matter at hand: the HMP Gunship. I went back to the original article spoiling the ship (Jan8!!!). I had forgotten that the card spread shows a Cannon upgrade and a Bomb upgrade as well as the Missiles. Wow. This things has got some tools! I fear that it will be pricey given our above discussion, but given that statline maybe it will be okay? And the Repulsorlift Stabilizers config.... So much possibility! I will probably pick up a couple, to start.

I kind of wonder if all ships will have all slots... more than other factions Separatists have a lot of pilots who don't have the same slots as the others in the same ship.

36 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I kind of wonder if all ships will have all slots... more than other factions Separatists have a lot of pilots who don't have the same slots as the others in the same ship.

2x Hardpoint slot + 1x Payload covers all upgrades we've seen in the spread. I wonder if that's too out-there though.

1 hour ago, Kleeg005 said:

Back to the matter at hand: the HMP Gunship. I went back to the original article spoiling the ship (Jan8!!!). I had forgotten that the card spread shows a Cannon upgrade and a Bomb upgrade as well as the Missiles. Wow. This things has got some tools! I fear that it will be pricey given our above discussion, but given that statline maybe it will be okay? And the Repulsorlift Stabilizers config.... So much possibility! I will probably pick up a couple, to start.

45 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I kind of wonder if all ships will have all slots... more than other factions Separatists have a lot of pilots who don't have the same slots as the others in the same ship.

I expect that at least one of the named pilots will mirror the Hyena DBS-32C. Tactical Relay Kalani comes in the pack, but I would be shocked beyond words if *all* of the gunships had a relay slot, right? And there are two double-pip pilot cards in the spread. Surely the implication is that some of them should have different combat roles and load-outs. I love that design space, and I think the devs do too.

20 hours ago, Flurpy said:

So those three out of hundreds of options demand an entire new edition?

the opposite of that was the point?

if you rotate out some cards and make new versions of them, you don't need to make a new edition

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

ARC to Scum YT-1300 is a comparison that comes out a lot better for the ARC, IMHO.

You mean that the arc wins by a significant margin?

yeah.

----

We don't need Reduction Values (ex. Missiles -X) except on special weapons. Nothing else, directly changes value as significantly on a every-upgrade-of-that-kind-wide basis.

We don't need Reduction Values (ex. Missiles -X) except on special weapons. Nothing else, directly changes value as significantly on a every-upgrade-of-that-kind-wide basis. PEOPLE DONT GET CONFUSED, ATTACK VALUES ARE HUGE FOR DETERMINING VALUE. 3 ATTACK DICE IS A MULTIPLICATIVE VALUE COMPARED TO 2 ATTACK DICE. DONT GET CONFUSED, USE YOUR BRAIN AND THINK.

------

At the same time, I've always wondered what the exact cost of turrets are: I suspect they ARE undercoated, and dorsal should be like 5, and ICT more like 7.
But I don't go around play testing naked Y wings vs naked Scurrgs vs naked VCXs vs other naked turret spottable fuselages compared to with turrets. That ain't my kink.

I will say though, scurrgs can see dorsals as worth it for 3 points, I won't pay 5 points for them on scurrgs.

This also suggests to me that the Aggressor is basically overcosted too, and should be 25, and is paying a 1 pt tax for the turret, due to its small size. The tax goes up with the cost of the ship me thinks. As its mobility is same or worse than Torrent, and its linked action is the same. Its only extra grace is one shield, which is worth only 0.5 points on conversion. Actually, the Torrent in a sense has a better dial with a lot more options.
So the Dorsal Turret seems to be worth 4 on the Aggressor, with the aggressor itself being worth 25 naked.

(Glances over the discussion for how to balance special weapon costs) Wow. Some people must love playing with spreadsheets.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

(Glances over the discussion for how to balance special weapon costs) Wow. Some people must love playing with spreadsheets.

why isn't boba Fenn nerfed after people play against it? cuz spreadsheet says they had fun.

30 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

(Glances over the discussion for how to balance special weapon costs) Wow. Some people must love playing with spreadsheets.

It's mah jorb.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

This also suggests to me that the Aggressor is basically overcosted too, and should be 25, and is paying a 1 pt tax for the turret, due to its small size. The tax goes up with the cost of the ship me thinks. As its mobility is same or worse than Torrent, and its linked action is the same. Its only extra grace is one shield, which is worth only 0.5 points on conversion. Actually, the Torrent in a sense has a better dial with a lot more options.
So the Dorsal Turret seems to be worth 4 on the Aggressor, with the aggressor itself being worth 25 naked.

I'd rate Aggressor as more mobile than a Torrent, not worse. White 3 banks and 3 Hard > Red Hard 1, Red 3 Bank.

Overall, though, I'm kind of glad Turret ships pay a tax. It's a case where the upgrade becomes a more integral part of the ship design, but the tax is also small enough that it's still the case that "Dutch Vander with Proton Torpedoes is a good build, and at 53 points will easily fit into any Rebel squad."

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

We don't need Reduction Values (ex. Missiles -X) except on special weapons. Nothing else, directly changes value as significantly on a every-upgrade-of-that-kind-wide basis.

Probably accurate, but...

Every so often, there are threads about initiative pricing on Advanced Sensors, mostly since folks really really want to be able to afford AdvS B-Wings. However, Guri just ruins the upgrade for everyone else, and steep Initiative Scaling makes the Omicron Lambda stronger than it ought to be.

However! If B-Wings got a discount on Sensor slots, they can get their AdvS without wrecking stuff for everyone else.

I'm sure it's not nearly as useful as it'd be on weapons. However, there are a lot of places it'd probably be fun.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Probably accurate, but...

Every so often, there are threads about initiative pricing on Advanced Sensors, mostly since folks really really want to be able to afford AdvS B-Wings. However, Guri just ruins the upgrade for everyone else, and steep Initiative Scaling makes the Omicron Lambda stronger than it ought to be.

Yes again though: 1 upgrade instance, that may need variable cost. Not blanket reduction on any upgrade of that slot. Also let's not confuse variable cost scaling, and blanket reduction (-x) keywords.

(Complete aside: Adv Sen with some variation based on init seems ok to me)

If it wasn't clear also: the reason why special weapons modify cost values and are likely not as simple as simple addition is this tenet: Most of the time, except for things like VTG, the secondary weapon replaces the main weapon for 75-100% of shots. Therefore the true red-dice value of those ships becomes the special-weapon red-dice + the fuselage agility/hull/shields/dial/etc.

In simplification:

shipValue = (100ish%*some_constant_for_2red or 140ish%_some_constant_If_3_RED) * [(similar_agility_constants_increasing_per_green_dice) * hull * 1.2*shields] + 1to4_points_for_special_traits_such_as_dial_quirk + 0to6_points_for_abilities + 0-9points_for_number_of_force_charges

I know its all multiplication, but I think you get what I mean.

Its really likely that simple. Just a question of the constants. If you want to build models will me let me know.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yes again though: 1 upgrade instance, that may need variable cost. Not blanket reduction on any upgrade of that slot. Also let's not confuse variable cost scaling, and blanket reduction (-x) keywords.

(Complete aside: Adv Sen with some variation based on init seems ok to me)

I guess I just think that chassis differences can matter more than initiative differences, in some cases. I mean, Guri should probably pay more for Advanced Sensors than Gina Moonsong.

And it isn't confusing things. Initiative/Agility scaling and targeted reductions are two different concepts that I think could weave together in interesting ways.

There's just enough upgrades where one ship or pilot ruins things for everyone else, and it's not just due to Intiiative, and having one more steam release valve has at least some merit. Maybe it'd be too complicated, but, eh. I still kinda like the idea. It's fine if you don't. FFG will probably never do it, and I mostly just find interesting to explore the concept.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I guess I just think that chassis differences can matter more than initiative differences, in some cases. I mean, Guri should probably pay more for Advanced Sensors than Gina Moonsong.

And it isn't confusing things. Initiative/Agility scaling and targeted reductions are two different concepts that I think could weave together in interesting ways.

There's just enough upgrades where one ship or pilot ruins things for everyone else, and it's not just due to Intiiative, and having one more steam release valve has at least some merit. Maybe it'd be too complicated, but, eh. I still kinda like the idea. It's fine if you don't. FFG will probably never do it, and I mostly just find interesting to explore the concept.

I can't remember who was the originator, was it you?

Yeah but should all SVs get a reduction on all possible Systems? (including possible scale by initiative, SVs I1-3 reduce by 2pts, SVs I4-5 or SVs I5 ( Guri plus a hypothetical second I5 SV) reduce by 0pts??).

I'd rather not have a system where its just a random factor that Guri alone pays 12 points for Adv sensor. and Xizor pays 10

That's just initiative scaling as we have it right now on a single upgrade (but that's also globally for all ships based on init, not on a per-chassis basis alone) and again, nothing wrong with that. Where I thought you meant differently is to add text like: Systems Point Reduction (2,2,2,2,1,0,0): Starviper chassis: If I0-3, all Systems upgrades equipped cost 2 less points. If I4, 1 less. If I5-6, 0 less.

----

I just think for special weapons, each pilot of a certain ship type could have a reduction value (-x) keyword.

I prefer more simplicity in this case.

----

Can't tell if we're talking past each other here on accident lol

That mid-section to be added via errata, or some sort of weird additive ship upgrade card. The example as I thought in my head was this:

Tie Bomber - Scimitar Squadron Pilot - Init2

<flavor text>
---
Hardpoints & Payloads Point Reduction (1) : Hardpoints and Payloads equipped to this ship are reduced in value by 1 point(s).
---
Nimble Bomber: <Explanatory text>

On 3/26/2020 at 5:30 PM, Hiemfire said:

Royal N-1special repaint will be available for sale (limit 2 per) starting tomorrow at 11am central time on the X-Wing 2.0 product page.

Did it sell out already?

12 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Reminder also that empty upgrade slots are always worth 0. That's a rule we've learned to not mess with over history - its gotten soooo many ship's balance wrong over the years. If they aren't worth 0, which in some cases is true and live in 2.0, the upgrades themselves are generally cheaper than they should be.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. There are cases where, for example, a ship benefits more from a certain slot than is usually the case, or having a rare combination of slots allows certain combinations which are strong and not commonly possible. Assuming that the ship is going to use those upgrades and pricing it up a bit allows the upgrades to still be priced at a level which is viable for other ships.

That said there are a lot of cases where ships have been paying for slots which aren't especially useful, and yeah, that's not a great idea.

On 3/28/2020 at 12:08 AM, Blail Blerg said:

I can't remember who was the originator, was it you?

Yeah but should all SVs get a reduction on all possible Systems? (including possible scale by initiative, SVs I1-3 reduce by 2pts, SVs I4-5 or SVs I5 ( Guri plus a hypothetical second I5 SV) reduce by 0pts??).

I'd rather not have a system where its just a random factor that Guri alone pays 12 points for Adv sensor. and Xizor pays 10

That's just initiative scaling as we have it right now on a single upgrade (but that's also globally for all ships based on init, not on a per-chassis basis alone) and again, nothing wrong with that. Where I thought you meant differently is to add text like: Systems Point Reduction (2,2,2,2,1,0,0): Starviper chassis: If I0-3, all Systems upgrades equipped cost 2 less points. If I4, 1 less. If I5-6, 0 less.

----

I just think for special weapons, each pilot of a certain ship type could have a reduction value (-x) keyword.

I prefer more simplicity in this case.

----

Can't tell if we're talking past each other here on accident lol

I suppose I wouldn't really put it on Starvipers, and I'd mostly try to have the reductions the same across all the pilots for a ship. I could easily see less than half of ships getting a reduction of some kind.

• A sensor reduction on B-Wings helps them do Cannon things with the title (since their cannon-things are all lock-things, so FCS and PS are great for lock things), do low Init Torpedo things (again, Passive Sensors), and Advanced Sensors things since it's kind of classic on B-Wings. Worth noting: none of these things on B-Wings would be wicked strong, and the best option is probably still to just run Braylen Stramm without upgrades, but going for those oddball builds is a little easier.
  • I might put a sensor reduction on the G-1A, since that's a ship which runs into major breakpoint issues and can't really get buffed otherwise. Reducing sensor upgrade costs or crew costs or something buffs the ship, without causing awkward 5 G-1A lists.
  • I might consider Tech reduction on the TIE/fo, since upgrade costs always feel steeper on cheap ships. That's a bit more of an edge case.
  • That might be it. I don't necessarily think other ships need much help using these.
    • Maybe E-Wings, but maybe they could get discount droids. Yeah, I kinda like that... 49 point E-Wings, and their droids go down by 1 point. You could run four with R4, or if you're running three they're a bit cheaper with R3 (for Torpedo strategies) or R2 (for boom and zoom). That'd be more fun than just getting free Fire Control System, or just getting 2 points off of E-Wings.
      • That's a big point of this: add select cheaper upgrades where it'd be fun and maybe a ship could use a bit of spiffy-ing up, but not really needing a big buff by base cost reduction.
      • It's not entirely about making sure that all upgrades perfectly equitable on all pilots, but more helping out some ships where they'd be fun but are currently not really affordable.
        • B-Wing Sensor and E-Wing Droid seem like my best examples. The upgrades can inform a playstyle, add a sprinkle of spice to make things a bit more interesting, without really dominating the builds.
• I'd give Illicit/Modification reduction back to the Kihraxz. Those things are just so fun to kit out to the nines.
  • Maybe Scum Z-95s get Illicit/Modification reduction, while Rebels get Missile reduction. That'd make the two versions feel pretty different, and I think that'd be good.
    • Making ships which are otherwise pretty similar feel more different is a side-goal.
  • I'd give it to TIE Interceptors, since they've got those mod slots which are so hard to fill, and jack Soontir up two points, because **** Init 6... He'd still cost the same when fully built, but more if run lean. Seeing Soontir with Hull/Shield is just kinda fun.
    • 49 points for a Saber with Hull/Shield or 44 for an Alpha would actually probably be a really sweet ship. Probably not as good as a Fang, but I don't think it necessarily has to be. They'd be just a little bit better, and these sorts of "heavy blockers" are surprisingly fun and effective.
• For Gunner/Crew reductions, I could see it on the Scum YT-1300, since that ship only works when you've layered a bunch tricks, but then it's too expensive for a 2-dice turret. However, Rebel and Resistance YT-1300 can work fine right now, so don't need crew reduction.
  • Reapers seem often a little weak compared to Lambdas, at least as far as support ships go. Maybe Reapers would get reductions in crew, so that they don't have to sub-40 the Scarif Base Pilot. That said, Vermiel usually does seem to perform better than we'd think.
  • Quadjumpers are so fragile that crew on them is probably almost always a mistake. Maybe give them a crew discount. Only a point. It's a little bit easier to run some wild idea for a Quadjumper.

7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

• • Quadjumpers are so fragile that crew on them is probably almost always a mistake. Maybe give them a crew discount. Only a point. It's a little bit easier to run some wild idea for a Quadjumper.

0pt Vizago ticks all the right boxes here.

57 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

0pt Vizago ticks all the right boxes here.

Why? He's completely useless now instead of just nich.

2 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Why? He's completely useless now instead of just nich.

You can still perma-cloak a Quadjumper, or you could shuffle some Contraband Cybernetics around so that someone has more than one use of it. Little ordinary basic stuff. Which is, well, probably fine for a single point Upgrade, and certainly fine for a 0-point one.

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

You can still perma-cloak a Quadjumper, or you could shuffle some Contraband Cybernetics around so that someone has more than one use of it. Little ordinary basic stuff. Which is, well, probably fine for a single point Upgrade, and certainly fine for a 0-point one.

This. He is so niche now, that he may as well be 0pt. As Fig said, there are still fun things you can do with him, the Quad is the perfect platform for that nonsense. Paying for him is a bit of a p**s-take these days. So, boxes multiply ticked.