I know that the targeting token is only used to measure range, while LOS and arc is measured from the Onager itself.

My question: Can I choose to measure range from my ship versus the targeting token?What if the targeted hull zone of the enemy's ship is closer to the Onager than any part of the ship is to the targetting token (Onager=close range to enemy, targeting token=medium range to enemy)?

The targeting token is not used to measure range .

Range is measured as normal from the attacking hull zone to the defending hull zone.

The targeting token is only used to determine which dice form the initial attack pool. And it must be used for that.

So if the defending hull zone is at close range of the attacking hull zone, but the defending ship token is at long range of the targeting token, you can only use the red dice when forming the initial attack pool. However the attack would still be at close range; so targetting scramblers work, evades woulddn't.

3 hours ago, Grumbleduke said:

The targeting token is not used to measure range .

Range is measured as normal from the attacking hull zone to the defending hull zone.

The targeting token is only used to determine which dice form the initial attack pool. And it must be used for that.

Wow, when I was able to.go back in the instructions and reread it, I see that's clearly correct. Guess in subsequent playthroughs I just morphed the rules a bit subconsciously.

Now in regards to your last point, while correct per the rules, isn't it rather counter-intuitive that the two ships could be close range to each other but I still would only get to use my red dice, per targeting token placement?

1 hour ago, SithLrd88 said:

Now in regards to your last point, while correct per the rules, isn't it rather counter-intuitive that the two ships could be close range to each other but I still would only get to use my red dice, per targeting token placement?

I thought this at first too, but consider that you're hyper focused on hitting something at a specific point far away. Then it moves. While you may still graze it, you're not focused on where it is, but rather on where it was. And these ships are also dealing with 3d space that we are trying to best represent on a 2d table.

Or consider zeroing in a red dot scope on a firearm. You need to set it for a specific range. If you set it to 100 yards, then you're going to have a much easier time hitting things at 100 yards. But when you want to hit something at 20 yards, you're shots are going to be farther away from the mark (above the target).

1 hour ago, SithLrd88 said:

isn't it rather counter-intuitive that the two ships could be close range to each other but I still would only get to use my red dice, per targeting token placement?

Maybe. But perhaps think of it that the Ignition attack involves lining up the massive cannons out the front. If the ship is a long way from the targeting token, even if it is close to the ship, it will still be hard for the cannons to adjust and get a full hit onto it - perhaps the beams won't be fully focused and so give a glancing blow.

Targeting Scramblers works, because that messes with the attacking ship's targeting systems. Evades work at long range because the defender has time to dodge. So if an Ignition Attack is shooting something at close range, but their targeting point is a long way away, the defender has no chance to dodge, can mess back with the attacker, but might only get a glancing blow or unfocused hit.

Of course, in a game, that's the attacker's fault for having the ignition token in the wrong place. They should have moved it into close range at the last opportunity...

On 3/26/2020 at 4:47 PM, Grumbleduke said:

The targeting token is not used to measure range .

Range is measured as normal from the attacking hull zone to the defending hull zone.

The targeting token is only used to determine which dice form the initial attack pool. And it must be used for that.

So if the defending hull zone is at close range of the attacking hull zone, but the defending ship token is at long range of the targeting token, you can only use the red dice when forming the initial attack pool. However the attack would still be at close range; so targetting scramblers work, evades woulddn't.

Everything I’ve read about the onager says that you do measure range for its ignition attack from the targeting token. That seems to be the entire point of the special weapon arc. It is a flying siege engine after all

2 hours ago, Croisis said:

Everything I’ve read about the onager says that you do measure range for its ignition attack from the targeting token. That seems to be the entire point of the special weapon arc. It is a flying siege engine after all

No, you don’t measure RANGE from the token. You absolutely don’t. You only use the ignition token to determine which dice to gather.

It’s like this: Let’s say I have an Onager Testbed sitting in the backfield with Orbital Bombardment Particle Cannons. I have my eye on your Home One, which is slowly creeping forward, and won’t be able to avoid my Onager’s reach next turn. So at the end of the Testbed’s activation this turn, I place the ignition token out at the very extreme end of long range, to get maximum reach on my OBPC’s.

On your very next activation, you see an opportunity, and accelerate your MC30 hard at the Onager at speed 4. You know you have first activation next turn, and you want to get right in front of the Testbed and give it a good kick in the teeth.

So next turn comes along, and you get first activation, and fire off your MC30’s attack. It goes well, but the Testbed survives. Now it’s my turn. I activate the Onager, and per the Ignition rules, I have a token down, so my first attack must be taken at a ship in my special weapon arc if possible. Turns out I have two eligible targets: Home One (out at extreme range), and the MC30 (at close range). The ignition token, meanwhile, is very far away from the MC30, and very close to the Home One. If I decide to fire at the MC30, the attack itself is close range, because the distance between our ships is close. But I only may gather the red dice, not the black dice in my special weapons arc, because the closest part of the MC30 is at red range from the token. Conversely, if I choose to attack Home One, the range is extreme (beyond long), but I may gather both the reds and the blacks for the Testbed’s attack, because the ignition token is at black dice range of the Home One.

Even though the MC30 is far away from the ignition token, and I can only use my red dice, it is disallowed from using its Evade tokens on defense, because it is at close range to the attacking ship (the Onager), and Evade tokens do nothing at close range.

Do you see the distinction now? Range and line of sight are ALWAYS ship to ship. The placement of the token only tells you what dice to gather, but that is NOT the same as range measurement.

Umm that’s not what the article from ffg says. This is a picture from the official article describing how to do an ignition attack. To me it absolutely looks like you measure range from the token.

Range is measured from ship to ship still. This is how you determine if the attack is at close, medium, long, or extreme range.

If an ignition attack, you also measure from the ignition token to the defending ship you are attacking to determine what dice to roll.

Due to game wording, they call it range, but it's range for knowing only what dice to collect for your attack pool.

The following is a direct quote from the official ffg article on the onager

“ The first step to performing an ignition attack occurs at the end of a ship’s activation, when it can place its targeting token within its special firing arc at close range. Then, at the beginning of its Attack step, the ship must perform an ignition attack against a ship in the special firing arc as its first attack of the activation. The dice for this attack are gathered from the special battery armament like normal, but the range for this attack is determined by measuring from the attacker’s targeting token rather than the ship itself.”

Combined with the official faq ruling referencing extreme range allowing an evade token to cancel two dice instead of one seems to support my argument

25 minutes ago, Croisis said:

The following is a direct quote from the official ffg article on the onager

“ The first step to performing an ignition attack occurs at the end of a ship’s activation, when it can place its targeting token within its special firing arc at close range. Then, at the beginning of its Attack step, the ship must perform an ignition attack against a ship in the special firing arc as its first attack of the activation. The dice for this attack are gathered from the special battery armament like normal, but the range for this attack is determined by measuring from the attacker’s targeting token rather than the ship itself.”

Combined with the official faq ruling referencing extreme range allowing an evade token to cancel two dice instead of one seems to support my argument

FFG promotional articles are not official rules documentation. I don't think we've ever had without an error, it's practically tradition at this point.

No, it doesn't. If range is only determined from the token rather than from the Onager , shots cannot happen at extreme range. Therefore the FAQ is worthless under your interpretation, which is still wrong.

I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about (in this case anyway) because I have judged for FFG. But you are free to interpret the game however you want.

But hey, play the game how you want, just don't be upset when you go to an official tournament and find out that you're not playing it correctly.

Edit: if you would like further clarification on how ignition works I'm happy to provide it.

@Croisis I think a point that would go against your interpretation of the rule is, if measuring range from the targeting token, how would you ever have extreme long range?

The rule book for the Onagers explicitly stated attack, firing arc, range and line of site are measured from the ship as normal, THEN it goes on to mention your point about using the token to gather dice.

Id include a pic but can never get pics to work.

This might help.

On 4/27/2020 at 7:54 PM, Croisis said:

The following is a direct quote from the official ffg article on the onager

Articles are not rules. If you want, have a look at the rules themselves . The relevant part reads:

Quote

While performing an IGNITION attack, firing arc, range , and line of sight are measured from the attacker's ship token as normal, with the following exceptions:

• ...
• Attack dice are gathered from the attacker's special battery armament based on the range measured from the attacker's targeting token to any part of the defender's ship token (even another hull zone), instead of the attack rage.

It's a bit confusing as "range" is mentioned in two different parts of the attack (3 if you count defense tokens) and we tend to skip over the first when playing (or do it implicitly). Range is first measured during Step 1, Declare Target, to make sure the defender is "at attack range of the attacking hull zone." So that's a check to see if the defender is a valid target (if not, they couldn't have been declared the target of the attack, so no attack happened).

Range is also mentioned in Step 2, Roll Attack Dice. "Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack..." If you get to this point, you already know the range of the attack, and you use that to determine what dice to pick up.

So the Ignition attack rules don't change how range is measured. They only over-write that second bit of rule, changing how you determine which dice to gather for your initial attack pool.

This is important as it means any effect based on range goes of the ship-to-ship range, not the token-to-ship range. That's things like Targeting Scramblers, Evade Tokens, Mon Mothma, Krennic and so on. No matter where the targeting token is, those are based on the ship-to-ship range.

It's also what messes up Heavy Fire Zone, but let's not go there.

Has anyone been able to find an explanation on the use of Targeting Scramblers vs. an Ignition Attack that is performed with the defender at close range of the targeting token?

On 4/27/2020 at 2:54 PM, Croisis said:

The following is a direct quote from the official ffg article on the onager

[insert non-rules text written by marketing intern]

It’s as the others have said; FFG hype articles are (and always have been) rife with contradictions and mistakes. The only documents that matter for rules purposes are the FAQ, the Rules guide, and the inserts that come in the packaging of the products themselves. In this case, the rules insert for the Onager lays things out exactly as I did above. Someone (Grumbleduke, I think) gave you a more precise play-by-play of the rules themselves, above (I don’t have the document in front of me).

Range is always ship-to-ship... or more precisely, attacking hull zone to defending hull zone. And it is always (based on that measurement), either short, medium, long, or extreme range.

The “range” from the token to the closest part of the target ship should never have been called “range,” and the fact that that word ever appeared in that context is evidence only that FFG needs better proofreaders. You measure distance from token to target only for purposes of gathering dice.

That is how it works. It’s not an arguable point. You can ask for further clarification, and I’m sure we’ll all be happy to help, and you can complain that FFG didn’t write these rules in the clearest possible way, and I for one will sympathize. But the way it actually works is well established, and it’s as we’ve said.

10 minutes ago, eliteone said:

Has anyone been able to find an explanation on the use of Targeting Scramblers vs. an Ignition Attack that is performed with the defender at close range of the targeting token?

This one is easy. Range is measured from the attacking hull zone to the defending hull zone. If that range measurement turns out to be close range, then the defender is “defending at close range,” and the Targeting Scrambler may be used. It doesn’t matter where the token is.

1 minute ago, Cpt ObVus said:

This one is easy. Range is measured from the attacking hull zone to the defending hull zone. If that range measurement turns out to be close range, then the defender is “defending at close range,” and the Targeting Scrambler may be used. It doesn’t matter where the token is.

I thought so, but wanted to make sure. Thanks!

As a matter of fact, this is exactly why the distinction of ‘range of attack’ vs. ‘distance from ignition token’ exists. It’s so we can correctly determine whether and how things like Targeting Scrambler and Evade tokens work.

okay I understand now I wasn’t being clear on my end and I wasn’t understanding what you guys were saying. My initial interpretation was correct I was just using bad rules language to articulate myself sorry for the mixup. TLDR you guys were right all along 😅