Hi guys,

During the quest step, the following cards come up due to the surge keyword:

1. Have you seen Bagging! (Peril + Surge + When Revealed effects)

2. Lure of the ring (Surge + When Revealed effects)

3. Black Rider (Hide 2 + Forced effects)

In this case, after the peril + surge effects on the first card are resolved, what would be the next effect (effects) to be resolved?:

- the surge effect on the second card?
- the surge effect on the second card + the hide 2 + the forced effects on the third card (hide test failed)?
- the when revealed effect on the first card?

I understand that the passive effects are resolved first but I also read that all the effects on a card should be resolved before to proceed with the next card, I think I'm confused.

Regards,

32 minutes ago, caribecards said:

1. Have you seen Bagging! (Peril + Surge + When Revealed effects)

2. Lure of the ring (Surge + When Revealed effects)

3. Black Rider (Hide 2 + Forced effects)

The sequence (due to this bit of rules "Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card") should be like this if I am not mistaken

1a) Resolve the When Revealed Effect (with Peril) of "Have you Seen Baggings", eventually attaching the Condition to a hero
1b) Surge of "Have you Seen Baggins" reveals "Lure of the Ring"

2a) Resolve the When Revealed Effect (no Peril) of "Lure of the Rings" eventually exhausting the One Ring
2b) Surge of "Lure of the Ring" revealing Black Rider

3a) The Hide Test of The Black Rider is triggered
3b) Resolve the Hide Test and if you fail due to the passive effect of the quest the Black Rider engages you
3c) You then have two different Forced effects triggering at the same time if you didn't avoid the Condition in 1a: the Black Rider attack and the discarding of a hero from "Have you Seen Baggins". Since the Trigger is the same for both these Forced effetcs you can decide the order in which they are resolved (so if it's ready you can use the hero with the Condition to defend and die against the Black Rider, bypassing the Condition, if you so choose).

Remember that you have an action window after totaling the Threat of the encounter cards discarded for the Hide Test, it can be vital.

Hope that helped

20 minutes ago, Alonewolf87 said:

The sequence (due to this bit of rules "Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card") should be like this if I am not mistaken

1a) Resolve the When Revealed Effect (with Peril) of "Have you Seen Baggings", eventually attaching the Condition to a hero
1b) Surge of "Have you Seen Baggins" reveals "Lure of the Ring"

2a) Resolve the When Revealed Effect (no Peril) of "Lure of the Rings" eventually exhausting the One Ring
2b) Surge of "Lure of the Ring" revealing Black Rider

3a) The Hide Test of The Black Rider is triggered
3b) Resolve the Hide Test and if you fail due to the passive effect of the quest the Black Rider engages you
3c) You then have two different Forced effects triggering at the same time if you didn't avoid the Condition in 1a: the Black Rider attack and the discarding of a hero from "Have you Seen Baggins". Since the Trigger is the same for both these Forced effetcs you can decide the order in which they are resolved (so if it's ready you can use the hero with the Condition to defend and die against the Black Rider, bypassing the Condition, if you so choose).

Remember that you have an action window after totaling the Threat of the encounter cards discarded for the Hide Test, it can be vital.

Hope that helped

Thank you, it helps.

2 hours ago, Alonewolf87 said:

The sequence (due to this bit of rules "Resolve the surge keyword immediately after resolving any when revealed effects on the card") should be like this if I am not mistaken

1a) Resolve the When Revealed Effect (with Peril) of "Have you Seen Baggings", eventually attaching the Condition to a hero
1b) Surge of "Have you Seen Baggins" reveals "Lure of the Ring"

2a) Resolve the When Revealed Effect (no Peril) of "Lure of the Rings" eventually exhausting the One Ring
2b) Surge of "Lure of the Ring" revealing Black Rider

3a) The Hide Test of The Black Rider is triggered
3b) Resolve the Hide Test and if you fail due to the passive effect of the quest the Black Rider engages you
3c) You then have two different Forced effects triggering at the same time if you didn't avoid the Condition in 1a: the Black Rider attack and the discarding of a hero from "Have you Seen Baggins". Since the Trigger is the same for both these Forced effetcs you can decide the order in which they are resolved (so if it's ready you can use the hero with the Condition to defend and die against the Black Rider, bypassing the Condition, if you so choose).

Remember that you have an action window after totaling the Threat of the encounter cards discarded for the Hide Test, it can be vital.

Hope that helped

I think this is right apart from 3c. You can choose to resolve the attack first, but you will have to resolve Have You Seen Baggins at the first opportunity, which is at the beginning of the first action window created by the new attack - this is also your first opportunity to use any when engaged responses etc.

1 hour ago, rees263 said:

I think this is right apart from 3c. You can choose to resolve the attack first, but you will have to resolve Have You Seen Baggins at the first opportunity, which is at the beginning of the first action window created by the new attack - this is also your first opportunity to use any when engaged responses etc.

I am not sure, cause I think you have to wait to fully resolve the first Forced effect before proceding to (eventually) resolve the second Forced. Generally speaking Forced effects do not interrupt each other until they are fully resolved (I remember some stuff about that regarding some Burdens and The Lonely Mountain quest)

But you can definitely not use any Responses until the Forced attack is resolved (quoting an answer from Caleb about SpPippin), even though you have the usual Action windows opened for an attack.

Quote

The Forced effect on the Rider is triggered by failing a hide test, which happens before it engages you, so that has to be resolved before anything else. The Rider will engage you (passive) and attack (Forced) and there is no opportunity to trigger Pippin's Response between those two things. After the attack resolves would be your first opportunity to trigger Pippin's ability to return the Rider to the staging area, which you could do at that time. That can still be helpful since it will prevent the Rider from attacking during the combat phase, but there really is no way to stop a Rider from attacking when you fail a hide test.

Well that totally breaks my understanding of actions, responses and forced effects. It doesn't make sense to me that you would have the opportunity to use actions but not trigger responses.

The whole situation is a bit hazy IMHO. Here are more rulings of possible relevance:

The ruling @Alonewolf87 quoted was from 2014, FWIW ( BGG post ).

That is a bit bizarre. I can understand why you wouldn't be able to *prevent* the attack with SpPippin, since the forced attack starts the attack. Once an attack begins it doesn't matter if you send the enemy back to staging or not, it will still go through -- the only way to get rid of the attack is to get rid of the enemy. But I don't see any reason why the attack has to *finish* before SpPippin's response can be used, and I certainly think that during the attack you should be able to use combat-related responses (e.g. Hasty Stroke).

Along the same line, once the immediate attack has been declared, I would think the forced effect would be sufficiently resolved for the other forced effect to kick in and discard the hero.

Ah, so Caleb went back on his Response ruling that makes me feel a lot better, I'm not going crazy.

Seems like there was no explicit ruling on the Forced effect issue, but I assume you would treat it the same way - ie, trigger it as soon as possible in the action window. That's the interpretation that I will continue to use.

Triggering multiple immediate attacks as in the example adds more complication, but I suppose there are a couple of ways you could rationalise it: either the second forced effect triggers during the action window of the first attack and "lines up" the second attack for afterwards; or once you trigger the first attack the second effect isn't eligible to trigger until after its done, at which point the "trigger at the first available opportunity" time occurs and you get the second attack. I'm not sure there's a practical difference between the two, but I think I prefer the former.

9 minutes ago, rees263 said:

Seems like there was no explicit ruling on the Forced effect issue, but I assume you would treat it the same way - ie, trigger it as soon as possible in the action window. That's the interpretation that I will continue to use.

Triggering multiple immediate attacks as in the example adds more complication, but I suppose there are a couple of ways you could rationalise it: either the second forced effect triggers during the action window of the first attack and "lines up" the second attack for afterwards; or once you trigger the first attack the second effect isn't eligible to trigger until after its done, at which point the "trigger at the first available opportunity" time occurs and you get the second attack. I'm not sure there's a practical difference between the two, but I think I prefer the former.

I submitted this case to Caleb to get a more specific answer about Forced effects, immediate attacks and so forth. I will share any answer as soon as I get it

So here is Caleb answer to this specific question, which confirms that you have to resolve the second Forced as soon as possible, in this case just after the Rider attack initiates

Quote

How do two different Forced effects with the same trigger interact when one of them cause an immediate attack?

Actual game example from A Shadow in the Past (let's say no cancellation available):

"Have you Seen Baggins" (attach Condition to Hero A, which is ready) surges into Black Rider. The Hide Test is a failure (Hero A is still ready), the constant effect of the quest has the Rider engage us then both the Condition and the Black Rider Forced are triggered. From previous rulings we can choose the order to resolve them, but when does the second one come into play? Can we choose the Black Rider attack first, defend with Hero A, getting it killed to avoid the Condition Forced? Or as soon as we have an action window in the immediate attack the Condition Forced takes place (and in that case can we trigger Responses after that or those are still after the whole attack?) Or some other situation?

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You can choose which Forced effect to trigger first, but they must both be resolved as soon as possible. So if you chose to resolve an attack first, you would have to resolve Have You Seen Baggins? as soon as that attack was initiated. You could not wait until the attack was over, sorry.

Take care,

Caleb