4 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

Oh I love me some nerd-fight :-D. Fact is that also in the classic movies, the heroes are always the centerpieces of the action. And they survive far more dangerous situations than reasonably possible. Somehow they always end up in the middle of the action and come out victorious.

In game terms this would be absolutely impossible if they had only 3-4 health. This would guarantee that you would be dead more often than succeed in the mission - which miraculously NEVER happens in the movies. This would further lead to a situation where you would - for the sake of efficiency - take fewer or no heroes at all and fill the list with generics. That might be more "realistic" but would be less fun and most definitely not very Star Warsy.

I really like the balance between Heroes and regulars in the game. Heroes can and often do make the difference in the battle. But if you are not careful, they can die pretty fast.

The problem is they're crowding everything else out. Heroes are ONE part of the Star Wars ecosystem. Star Wars is about the whole SWU, not just Alex Davy's favorite characters. This is not Marvel. This is a Star Wars wargame . The AT-ST and snowspeeder is just as important to get right (and be fun to play) as anything else.

Of course they are crowding everything out, Star Wars is an arquetypical space opera where heroes and villains act as major key pieces of the plot.

The Star Wars Universe (Disney Canon, and Legion is Disney Canon) is built around them, you get to know locations in this vast universe because the heroes and the villains have to travel there in order to keep with the plot. The HUGE war machines that the empire builds are just there so Luke, Rey (or whoever overpowered hero comes out) can DESTROY IT!!! It's true that the OT was more subtle about it, but now it's freaking obvious that the Galaxy makes no sense without these guys.

I like Star Wars as much as the next poster here, but the SWU is not a completely working Universe for the protagonists to live, they decide the fate of the Galaxy, and the game lets us experience it in a pretty cool way. Just my opinion though.

I tend to agree, if for no reason other than the prequels replaced the stock bad guys with robots specifically so the heroes could chop them in two without much in the way of consequence.

1 hour ago, oaicart said:

Of course they are crowding everything out, Star Wars is an arquetypical space opera where heroes and villains act as major key pieces of the plot.

But I wanna play with (and presumably FFG wants to sell me) more than just Luke vs. Luke and Palpatine vs. Palpatine. Also, I know and love the SW plot too well to suspend disbelief of it every game when Person X fights a person they never actually met in a planet neither of them ever visited. I actually guard the Star Wars plot more jealously than real history for some reason. I have no trouble playing my 15th century Joan of Arc army, against my buddie's 15th century Charles the Bold army, even though he was born two years after she died. But the rule books we use would equally well support a strict historical matchup if I was so inclined.

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I like Star Wars as much as the next poster here, but the SWU is not a completely working Universe for the protagonists to live,

But it's been adapted to a product medium other than film. RPG's and hobby wargames aren't movies and comics. I've owned played all 4 SW (people) minis games that have come out. Legion has the best models, best marketing, but the rules are pretty restrictive, considering the general category of hobby that it falls into.

The more adaptable a game system is to different styles of fun (especially in its early years), usually the more successful it is.

The heavy focus on heroes, combined with the way the stat cards work, feels like an RPG where you can only use pre-generated PC's. What fun would that be?

So yes, I vote let's make marksman weaker.

On 3/24/2020 at 2:33 PM, bllaw said:

FFG never wanted snipers to die. They're an all around good unit but the nerf they got keeps them from being the overpowered units they used to be. Now they're just a really cheap activation that perform their job well but not insanely effective

Almost every competitive list takes 3 (unless they're using Tauntauns, which are definitely OP). They're still overpowered, even if only because they're too cheap for an activation.

I wonder how much people would pay for an activation that did nothing whatsoever. Probably quite a bit. Activation control is very important.

On 3/25/2020 at 6:41 AM, TauntaunScout said:

If you watch with a critical eye, the heroes only do that once. When they are allowed to escape the death star. Other than that they avoid imperial troops and are frequently scared of small numbers of them. They don’t defeat large numbers of enemies , they escape from large numbers of enemies. Jabba’s palace is the other exception but those were disorganized surprised semi-pro’s.

Since we are having a Nerd Off I am going to totally disagree with you. The Heroes consistently defeat small squads of storm troopers and get away unscathed but conversely when facing oppressive numbers they tended to run/lose which is exactly what legion simulates. A hero charging a gun line has to be done carefully and well thought or they lose. A focus fired hero/commander usually dies in this game. Conversely if the game breaks down to squad versus hero, the hero tends to win handily. This game isn't Luke vs Luke or Emporer vs Emporer, we have imperial Gunlines, TaunTauns, double ATST lists, etc.

We use the movies for "historical accuracy," so starting with a new hope we have the heroes facing down squads of troopers and winning/getting away before oppressive numbers take them out, just like Legion. This occurs in Mos Eisley at the beginning, the Death Star, Luke solos an ATAT on Hoth, etc. On Endor when facing overwhelming odds Han surrenders, then during a counter attack while unarmed he takes out a storm trooper even though he is in the middle of a Legion he comes away unscathed. Jabba's palace is another great example of the heroes as a group taking on a much greater force. Conversely on the Empires side we see Vader mowing down squads on Rogue One alone. Then if we talk the Prequels, Obi Wan, the Emporer and Jedi in general all show greater strength than the average trooper squad. Bottom line the Protagnonists typically show greater skill and combat ability than the average unit.

I think this game does a good job or recreating "history" in a simulated fashion.

Duplicate

Maybe the force users. But the other are way OP compared to the movies. Han, Leia, Chewie together surrender left and right to two to seven troopers. Boba Fett seems ineffective in a straight up fight he’s just a really smart tracker. Etc.

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Maybe the force users. But the other are way OP compared to the movies. Han, Leia, Chewie together surrender left and right to two to seven troopers. Boba Fett seems ineffective in a straight up fight he’s just a really smart tracker. Etc.

You will have to describe the scenes they surrendered left and right during, because I gave you 5 examples of where they didn't surrender and the one time on Endor they did, it was to an entire legion of the emporers best troops, who they still beat and walked away unscathed from.

I know this is my own thread and i shouldn't derail it, Tauntauns aren't OP, some of the keywords they gave them weren't playtested and their speed is a typo.

If they were speed 2 they'd be fine. If ram didn't guarantee a crit they'd be better. Frankly if the power creep is real, they'll be fine in the next couple of months.

Tauntauns could get a 5 point increase per body and no one could argue much, but with the fix of Creature Troopers, now they are better to handle by the enemies... and their offensive capabilities are way lower after the initial charge, they can't jump from unit to unit anymore.

Marksman on the other hand is way harder to address, because it's tied to elite bodies that can hit you from the other side of the board and producing (in some cases) better results than Ram. Cassian is going to have so many aim tokens (his own tactical, offensive push, 2 out of 3 command cards, teamwork...) and Iden has this weapon... and again like 2-3 ways to get aim tokens.

1 hour ago, Uetur said:

You will have to describe the scenes they surrendered left and right during, because I gave you 5 examples of where they didn't surrender and the one time on Endor they did, it was to an entire legion of the emporers best troops, who they still beat and walked away unscathed from.

In the Endor bunker, Han, Leia, Chewie and some commandos surrender to like 5 guys. On Bespin 7 stormtroopers behind them gets them to give up instead of run from Vader. That's not counting running away and stopping to shoot briefly (Mos Eisley, Hoth) when leaving was the objective anyhow. But in a Legion game they shoulda wrecked those stormtroopers. Han surrendurs again to two stormtroopers outside the bunker but a wounded Leia wastes them. The pair then surrender to an AT-ST, not knowing it's Chewie's. Han Solo in particular I find laughably too good in Legion.

Boba Fett gets in one fight in the oT and loses in an embarrassing manner.

For everything it did right, I blame my beloved WEG for a lot of this cult of the heroes.

39 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

In the Endor bunker, Han, Leia, Chewie and some commandos surrender to like 5 guys. On Bespin 7 stormtroopers behind them gets them to give up instead of run from Vader. That's not counting running away and stopping to shoot briefly (Mos Eisley, Hoth) when leaving was the objective anyhow. But in a Legion game they shoulda wrecked those stormtroopers. Han surrendurs again to two stormtroopers outside the bunker but a wounded Leia wastes them. The pair then surrender to an AT-ST, not knowing it's Chewie's. Han Solo in particular I find laughably too good in Legion.

Boba Fett gets in one fight in the oT and loses in an embarrassing manner.

For everything it did right, I blame my beloved WEG for a lot of this cult of the heroes.

In the spirit of having a Nerd-off.

In the Endor bunker they didn't surrender to 5 guys they surrendered to a Legion of troops who ambushed them of which 5 guys were the first there (and Han killed one of them), they then went on to win that battle mostly unscathed. This is exactly how Legion works, an entire army focusing on a Hero unit will kill them. I am not sure if you have watched the moves recently but Han surrenders to the two storm troopers as a ruse. On Bespin you kind of glossed over Vader being there and having stolen Hans blaster, after basically ignoring his shots, plus once again, 7 storm troopers behind them and Han is disarmed, with Vader there who is a badass. I actually agree with you on Boba Fett, most overrate Star Wars character ever.

You effectively dislike 2 hero's, Han and Boba Fett and then based on that is saying there is a Cult of hero's. I flat out disagree, based on the "historical" videos the hero's were always above and beyond a basic trooper and this game used a point system to partially determine how many regular squads a character will be worth. This is literally realism based on the source material. Both Han and Boba Fett are worth less points than a force user and Han specifically isn't that expensive at 120.

What it comes down to is this. It’s hard to write game rules for plot armor, and I think Legion’s attempt falls flat. You don’t. Too bad they don’t write a more flexible system that can work without heroes.

2 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

What it comes down to is this. It’s hard to write game rules for plot armor, and I think Legion’s attempt falls flat. You don’t. Too bad they don’t write a more flexible system that can work without heroes.

Fair enough

6 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Too bad they don’t write a more flexible system that can work without heroes.

Have you not tried running all-generic squads? It's so much fun!

IDK about competitive, I'm no expert, but you can get a lot of bodies on the board when you leave the lightsabers at home.

11 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Han Solo in particular I find laughably too good in Legion.

Competitively speaking Han is probably the worst character for Rebels (even worse than Jyn). He's fun to play, but dies almost instantly as soon as he is in his effective range 2. Not once have I seen him rush in and survive and I played him a lot.

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

IDK about competitive, I'm no expert, but you can get a lot of bodies on the board when you leave the lightsabers at home.

At the moment there are two successful archetypes concerning Heroes: 1) Lightsaber (or Force Lightening) wielding power houses doing what they do in the movies and 2) supporting characters staying back like the cowards @TauntaunScout wants them to be (not doing what they do in the movies). The finalists of the European Championship had Veers who's only role was to support the troops VS Leia as support plus Chewie who's only role was to be extra Hitpoints for Tauntauns/Snipers.

6 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

At the moment there are two successful archetypes concerning Heroes: 1) Lightsaber (or Force Lightening) wielding power houses doing what they do in the movies and 2) supporting characters staying back like the cowards @TauntaunScout wants them to be (not doing what they do in the movies). The finalists of the European Championship had Veers who's only role was to support the troops VS Leia as support plus Chewie who's only role was to be extra Hitpoints for Tauntauns/Snipers.

I was referring to the actual generic commanders from the personell expansion.

If you just want to play a wargame in the Star Wars universe, the tools are there.