I know one minion is automatically eliminated whenever a critical is applied to the minion group, but how does that resolve with Precise Strike? I'm ok with regardless of the outcome a minion is removed, but there are some good critical results that can help out the players. Things like staggered, distracted, or discouraging wound would could really help out the tide of a battle.
Can you still get the effect of a critical on a minion group?
No. As per RAW, Minions are incapacitated by Critical Injuries.
I am not particularly opposed to a house rule that would allow a PC with Precision Strike to inflict the effect of a Critical Injury on a minion group, but that would definitely be a house rule.
2 hours ago, Ahrimon said:I know one minion is automatically eliminated whenever a critical is applied to the minion group, but how does that resolve with Precise Strike? I'm ok with regardless of the outcome a minion is removed, but there are some good critical results that can help out the players. Things like staggered, distracted, or discouraging wound would could really help out the tide of a battle.
Can you still get the effect of a critical on a minion group?
No, as even without Precision Strike and it's Improved/Supreme versions, you don't roll for a critical injury result against minions. Instead, a crit result on a minion just means said minion is defeated.
The only thing Precision Strike changes with regards to minions and crits is that the player gets to decide if the defeated minion is alive or dead, as opposed to the GM making that determination, though that effect of Precision Strike is true any time a minion is defeated, whether it be from a critical injury or just simply enough damage to exceed their wound threshold.
Given that the Precision Strike chain of talents does let a PC choose specific effects (such as flipping a Destiny Point from dark to light), I'd be leery about letting that part of the talent now apply when used against minions, given that normally there's no critical injury roll against minions in the first place.
It definitely gets into a RAW vs RAI area. RAW I'd say it works, because the character did inflict a critical hit. I could also see the interpretation of "change the result" to change the auto-defeat result to a selection from the table. RAI... I honestly don't know.
My group rarely faces anything but minions so I have a feeling that the talents are going to be very rarely used and bordering on a waste due to it.
30 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:It definitely gets into a RAW vs RAI area. RAW I'd say it works, because the character did inflict a critical hit. I could also see the interpretation of "change the result" to change the auto-defeat result to a selection from the table. RAI... I honestly don't know.
My group rarely faces anything but minions so I have a feeling that the talents are going to be very rarely used and bordering on a waste due to it.
If that's really a problem, then are you player or GM? If you're the GM, that's easy enough to rectify. If you're a player, talk to the GM and it'll probably be easy enough for him to rectify.
We're players. It's for my son's character. Our GM is very particular about his game so I have to be careful around the subject of changes. It probably doesn't help that he has an inherent wariness of me since I tend to make the most optimized characters for our group even though I'm probably the biggest role player.
Then it might be best to leave well enough alone and stick to the RAW. Especially given what Donovan said about certain Critical Injury effects, something I hadn't really considered (though I guess it wouldn't make much of a difference whether its against Minions or Rivals/Nemesis).
That said, you can still always ask for some tougher opposition. You should just probably phrase it more carefully than that.
If you have purchased the improved and supreme then it would be worth it to have the conversation about it. That is a lot of exp to be spent on something that can't really be used.
If he has his reason for only using minions then try to work with him to see if you can substitute out those talents foe others that fit your theme better. Even if they are not as good as what they would be replacing.
Just my thoughts, but you know him better than me on how it would be received.
16 hours ago, Ahrimon said:It definitely gets into a RAW vs RAI area. RAW I'd say it works, because the character did inflict a critical hit. I could also see the interpretation of "change the result" to change the auto-defeat result to a selection from the table. RAI... I honestly don't know.
My group rarely faces anything but minions so I have a feeling that the talents are going to be very rarely used and bordering on a waste due to it.
Frankly, you're splitting hairs when it comes to the word "result," to an extent not unlike how a few folks years back decided that the Pierce quality meant you automatically did that much damage on a successful attack no matter what the target's soak value was due to some very liberal interpretation of the quality's wording, a fallacy that was shot down by the devs as very much not being the intent and not even being the rules as written.
Having been in the playtesting for Keeping the Peace (where Precision Strike first showed up), I can tell you that we did ask what happened with minions, and the answer (and thus intent per the FFG staff member leading the playtest) was that minions were just defeated, as there's never a critical injury roll. And the talent's intent is to modify the dice result when rolling for a critical injury.
But it does sound more like you need to have a conversation with your GM, and ask about him including rivals in combats more often. From the sounds of it, you may have dug your own grave given your past of making the most optimized characters; if that's rubbed your GM the wrong way in the past enough times, then best you can hope for is that he lets you respec the character into something that doesn't have those talents.
5 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:Frankly, you're splitting hairs when it comes to the word "result," to an extent not unlike how a few folks years back decided that the Pierce quality meant you automatically did that much damage on a successful attack no matter what the target's soak value was due to some very liberal interpretation of the quality's wording, a fallacy that was shot down by the devs as very much not being the intent and not even being the rules as written.
Donovan, were you around for Saga Edition? Active on the WotC forums? If so, do you remember RavingDork?
3 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:Frankly, you're splitting hairs when it comes to the word "result," to an extent not unlike how a few folks years back decided that the Pierce quality meant you automatically did that much damage on a successful attack no matter what the target's soak value was due to some very liberal interpretation of the quality's wording, a fallacy that was shot down by the devs as very much not being the intent and not even being the rules as written.
Having been in the playtesting for Keeping the Peace (where Precision Strike first showed up), I can tell you that we did ask what happened with minions, and the answer (and thus intent per the FFG staff member leading the playtest) was that minions were just defeated, as there's never a critical injury roll. And the talent's intent is to modify the dice result when rolling for a critical injury.
But it does sound more like you need to have a conversation with your GM, and ask about him including rivals in combats more often. From the sounds of it, you may have dug your own grave given your past of making the most optimized characters; if that's rubbed your GM the wrong way in the past enough times, then best you can hope for is that he lets you respec the character into something that doesn't have those talents.
I accept who I am. 😁 It's not like I make combat monsters or characters that totally mess with the balance of the game. I just go for combinations that are effective at what I want my character to do.
It's fair enough to call it splitting hairs, but words do matter. That's why I like to get advice from others when the RAW and my gut RAI don't agree with each other. I do appreciate the insight into the designers intent, that helps a lot.
Thanks.