20 minutes ago, xanderf said:The problem is that you still end up with a ship that is 7 points more than a Victory-II, and flat-out inferior in combat in every regard.
Not exactly inferior. Weaker front arc, stronger side arcs, better flak, better survivability. With the ability to add LTT - I certainly see the appeal to take it over Vic2.
Losing an experimental upgrade slot hurts a ton when those upgrades are so undercosted and the price is baked into the base chassis. When 2 points gives you something like Grav Shift Reroute of course you want to have a ton of those slots to fill! This initial design choice really makes the idea of a combat focused Interdictor pretty hard to pull off.
I wish both Interdictor base chassis had been cheaper and the experimental upgrades were much more expensive. It would give players more options if the Interdictor was priced so that base cruiser could be competitively run as a pure gunship saving points by neglecting to fill the experimental slots. Legends canon had this where both interdictor cruisers were modifications of a pure combat ship that still saw duty ( Interdictor Star Destroyer from ISD & Immobilizer Cruiser from Vindicator Cruiser ).
It feels like a missed opportunity to design the unit in such a way that the base unit subsides the unique upgrades basically forcing players to take the unique gimmick or have a suboptimal build. The Onager feels similar: at 5 points why would you ever not take a superlaser? The Starhawk seems better - the superweapon is good but not an autoinclude.
Edited by Mala1 hour ago, Mala said:The Onager feels similar: at 5 points why would you ever not take a superlaser?
At least that one makes sense. Because the Onager is a giant gun barrel designed for the testing and use of superlasers.
22 hours ago, Mala said:The Onager feels similar: at 5 points why would you ever not take a superlaser?
Hmmm, so one can run 2 Testbeds in the same list in an RR campaign? š
Maybe
3 hours ago, Muelmuel said:Hmmm, so one can run 2 Testbeds in the same list in an RR campaign? š
Maybe
I did this in Standard Armada the other day. It felt dirty, and worked frighteningly well.
Would this be overpowered?
Ship Title - 6pts.
When you discard a card from this ship, you may discard this card instead.
5 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:Would this be overpowered?
Ship Title - 6pts.
When you discard a card from this ship, you may discard this card instead.
Overpowered? Iām not sure I even see the point of using it. Do people really use Darth Vader Boarding Teams that often? Or do I really want a twice per game Skilled First Officer for 7 points? I must be missing something here.
25 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:Overpowered? Iām not sure I even see the point of using it. Do people really use Darth Vader Boarding Teams that often? Or do I really want a twice per game Skilled First Officer for 7 points? I must be missing something here.
Disposable Capacitors
5 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:Disposable Capacitors
For a combat Interdictor? No. it wouldn't even be worth it. Unless maybe you are chasing something, but then you can just take Engine techs for more flexibility.
Oh well, it was just a thought. Trying to find a way to make it useful and viable without changing the whole card.
25 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:Oh well, it was just a thought. Trying to find a way to make it useful and viable without changing the whole card.
Personally I think Changing the actual card would be a far better option than anything else.
24 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:Oh well, it was just a thought. Trying to find a way to make it useful and viable without changing the whole card.
Ahh, ok. I donāt think that would be OVERpowered at all. Probably too expensive for what essentially amounts to another 2 or so dice over the course of a game. Like where your headās at, though!
The real problem with refreshing DCaps is that theyāre typically only useful on a single game round, after which you are too close for them to make a difference.
Plus, as Giraffe pointed out, leveraging the blues on the Combat Refit is probably not what fixes it. I think we gotta make those reds worth it, or lean into the flak boat angle.
4 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:Ahh, ok. I donāt think that would be OVERpowered at all. Probably too expensive for what essentially amounts to another 2 or so dice over the course of a game. Like where your headās at, though!
The real problem with refreshing DCaps is that theyāre typically only useful on a single game round, after which you are too close for them to make a difference.
Plus, as Giraffe pointed out, leveraging the blues on the Combat Refit is probably not what fixes it. I think we gotta make those reds worth it, or lean into the flak boat angle.
Turbolaser and a Salvo token replacement option ala Vanguard . Preferably a cheap title that has Combat only restriction at a cheap cost. Something like 5 points.
Just now, TallGiraffe said:Personally I think Changing the actual card would be a far better option than anything else.
Iāve been playing X-Wing lately, for the first time, and theyāve developed a system whereby (with the advent of 2.0), points cost and upgrade slots no longer appear on the card. Those two elements are only available in online fleet builders.
I thought I was going to hate that.
I was wrong.
Every six months or so, they have a points and upgrade adjustment, to sort out balance problems, make useless cards relevant again, and take powerful ones down a peg. I havenāt seen it in action yet, but according to pretty much everyone over there, itās glorious.
Imagine a world in which putting Grand Moff Tarkin on a Local Fire Control & Spinal Armaments-equipped Combat Refit Interdictor flanked by an Overload Pulse Raider-II and a VSD-I with some TIE Defenders was the start of a really good fleet? We could have this!
This is the future of Armada.
2 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:Iāve been playing X-Wing lately, for the first time, and theyāve developed a system whereby (with the advent of 2.0), points cost and upgrade slots no longer appear on the card. Those two elements are only available in online fleet builders.
I thought I was going to hate that.
I was wrong.
Every six months or so, they have a points and upgrade adjustment, to sort out balance problems, make useless cards relevant again, and take powerful ones down a peg. I havenāt seen it in action yet, but according to pretty much everyone over there, itās glorious.
Imagine a world in which putting Grand Moff Tarkin on a Local Fire Control & Spinal Armaments-equipped Combat Refit Interdictor flanked by an Overload Pulse Raider-II and a VSD-I with some TIE Defenders was the start of a really good fleet? We could have this!
This is the future of Armada.
Even Legion has done points adjustments via the R/R being online. There are a few ships imo that could very much need some points adjustments. Now I know people don't like having cards that are wrongly pointed, but you could get sleeves and put some small stickers on em with the correct value on it.
9 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:Even Legion has done points adjustments via the R/R being online. There are a few ships imo that could very much need some points adjustments. Now I know people don't like having cards that are wrongly pointed, but you could get sleeves and put some small stickers on em with the correct value on it.
Or just ignore the points box entirely. We donāt need a full 2.0verhaul like X-Wing got. Armada is fairly well-balanced as it is. We just need to adjust a few cards to make them more viable/less oppressive. Maybe Rieekan at 40 points? Maybe Tarkin at 25? Combat Refit at... 80? How important is that second Experimental Retrofit now, eh? And if itās too good, they make it 87 points in a few months. No biggie!
2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:Or just ignore the points box entirely. We donāt need a full 2.0verhaul like X-Wing got. Armada is fairly well-balanced as it is. We just need to adjust a few cards to make them more viable/less oppressive. Maybe Rieekan at 40 points? Maybe Tarkin at 25? Combat Refit at... 80? How important is that second Experimental Retrofit now, eh? And if itās too good, they make it 87 points in a few months. No biggie!
X-Wing 1.0 was coming out too fast with too much cross-ship mixing (the 'invisible slot' modifications didn't help, either) to be able to be saved with less than they did, at least if X-Wing 2.0 was intended to have the same pace.
Armada is in a VERY different place, release-cadence-wise, nevermind balance.
A few modest upgrades or titles here and there are more than enough to fix nearly everything in the game. I mean, heck, look at the life that got breathed into the Suppression Interdictor - long neglected - with all the AMAZING objectives in RitR.
Going app-required is definitely not a direction the game should go, and it isn't CLOSE to needing to, so...
14 minutes ago, xanderf said:X-Wing 1.0 was coming out too fast with too much cross-ship mixing (the 'invisible slot' modifications didn't help, either) to be able to be saved with less than they did, at least if X-Wing 2.0 was intended to have the same pace.
Armada is in a VERY different place, release-cadence-wise, nevermind balance.
A few modest upgrades or titles here and there are more than enough to fix nearly everything in the game. I mean, heck, look at the life that got breathed into the Suppression Interdictor - long neglected - with all the AMAZING objectives in RitR.
Going app-required is definitely not a direction the game should go, and it isn't CLOSE to needing to, so...
Which is why I recommended the Legion way of going about it with the FAQ.
1 minute ago, TallGiraffe said:Which is why I recommended the Legion way of going about it with the FAQ.
I simply think even 'points adjustment' is a step farther than needed.
The game isn't that far out of balance - every ship or squadron (at least the hull type) sees competitive play, if not every variant. And the vast majority of upgrade cards do, too.
That was FAR from true for X-Wing 1.0 or Legion. Since we're clearly in a better position, we don't need to take as drastic measures.
I mean, look at the thread - a lot of the ideas are simple fixes that would probably work and do not require anything like errata to the slots or points of the ship.
1 hour ago, xanderf said:I simply think even 'points adjustment' is a step farther than needed.
The game isn't that far out of balance - every ship or squadron (at least the hull type) sees competitive play, if not every variant. And the vast majority of upgrade cards do, too.
That was FAR from true for X-Wing 1.0 or Legion. Since we're clearly in a better position, we don't need to take as drastic measures.
I mean, look at the thread - a lot of the ideas are simple fixes that would probably work and do not require anything like errata to the slots or points of the ship.
Listen here is the thing. There are many upgrades and one or two ship cards that don't really see much competitive play. And with FFG focusing on Clone Wars for the next expansions, I HIGHLY doubt GCW content is going to be coming any time soon. The points errata approach in the FAQ can be easily edited and provide some of these cards some re-balancing.
I dunno. I can think of at least 5-10 squadrons from each side, 1-4 upgrades in every category, a half-dozen commanders, and 6-8 ships which could use an adjustment of between 1-20 points.
I donāt think the game is terribly unbalanced; itās actually pretty great as-is, and theyāve done a fine job of keeping it in tune. But app-based costing and upgrade slotting is actually fantastic. I really, really thought I was going to hate it for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that Iām just an analog kind of guy. But itās just better on so many levels.
Besides, it is the nature of errata to fix problems by generally making cards worse, because weak cards donāt make competitive balance problems, and āif it aināt broke, donāt fix itā is the prevailing wisdom in game design. What I mean is, undercosted power cards might be addressed, either by increasing their costs or just nerfing them. But cards that were criminally over-costed will likely never be addressed, because they arenāt problematic. The Combat Refit Interdictor. Tarkin. Leia (Commander). The SSD Command Prototype. Sure, some things get better with new releases (the recent surge of the AFMkIIA due to Salvo is a good example). But would it really be so bad to just have occasional digital shake-ups that breathe new life into cards like Konstantine, and maybe knock guys like Rieekan down a peg?
35 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:I dunno. I can think of at least 5-10 squadrons from each side, 1-4 upgrades in every category, a half-dozen commanders, and 6-8 ships which could use an adjustment of between 1-20 points.
I donāt think the game is terribly unbalanced; itās actually pretty great as-is, and theyāve done a fine job of keeping it in tune. But app-based costing and upgrade slotting is actually fantastic. I really, really thought I was going to hate it for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that Iām just an analog kind of guy. But itās just better on so many levels.
Besides, it is the nature of errata to fix problems by generally making cards worse, because weak cards donāt make competitive balance problems, and āif it aināt broke, donāt fix itā is the prevailing wisdom in game design. What I mean is, undercosted power cards might be addressed, either by increasing their costs or just nerfing them. But cards that were criminally over-costed will likely never be addressed, because they arenāt problematic. The Combat Refit Interdictor. Tarkin. Leia (Commander). The SSD Command Prototype. Sure, some things get better with new releases (the recent surge of the AFMkIIA due to Salvo is a good example). But would it really be so bad to just have occasional digital shake-ups that breathe new life into cards like Konstantine, and maybe knock guys like Rieekan down a peg?
Most upgrades do err on the side of being weak, and there's definitely a lot that could use a buff. Take out the app and we're in agreement.
Or keep the format of errata we've been getting, focus on these changes, and throw the app in if you must. So long as (1. It's not the only way we're receiving changes, (2. doesn't lead to more frequent rebalancing, and (3. doesn't enable a lower quality of initial balance, I have no complaints.
They're not going to App.
They have stated that explicitly.
X-Wing was too expensive to develop and very tricky to maintain, so they cancelled any plans and intentions for Legion and Armada to use an App.
4 hours ago, Drasnighta said:They're not going to App.
They have stated that explicitly.
X-Wing was too expensive to develop and very tricky to maintain, so they cancelled any plans and intentions for Legion and Armada to use an App.
I'm quite happy for Armada to stay as it is, it's pretty balanced and a great game.
X-wing has too fast a release schedule for proper balancing to occur. The ability to re-cost anything and everything repeatedly means that every new release gets its balance after release rather than before which is very annoying, just not as annoying as 1st edition was!
With regard to the actual app, they messed up badly with it. All the fan-made ones are superior - and made by talented people in their spare time, so it shouldn't be that hard for FFG to achieve! They are supposedly making a new app for x-wing. If they are sensible, this shouldn't cost much - they just need competent people to do it!
tl;dr: new titles for ships is the fix I want to see for Armada. Not a 2nd edition.
1 hour ago, Gilarius said:I'm quite happy for Armada to stay as it is, it's pretty balanced and a great game.
X-wing has too fast a release schedule for proper balancing to occur. The ability to re-cost anything and everything repeatedly means that every new release gets its balance after release rather than before which is very annoying, just not as annoying as 1st edition was!
With regard to the actual app, they messed up badly with it. All the fan-made ones are superior - and made by talented people in their spare time, so it shouldn't be that hard for FFG to achieve! They are supposedly making a new app for x-wing. If they are sensible, this shouldn't cost much - they just need competent people to do it!
tl;dr: new titles for ships is the fix I want to see for Armada. Not a 2nd edition.
Agree. I'd like all ships to have a variety of titles, particularly early waves. AFmk2 really needs a couple of new ones. Dominator and Devastator are both overpriced (Devastator by about 6pts and Dominator by about 4 IMO). A minimum of 3 or 4 titles per ship would really help.