Points: 394/400

Commander: Kyrsta Agate (com)

Assault Objective: Surprise Attack
Defense Objective: Rift Ambush
Navigation Objective: Doomed Station

[ flagship ] Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)
- Kyrsta Agate (com) ( 20 points)
- Paragon ( 5 points)
- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)
- Local Fire Control ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Linked Turbolaser Towers ( 7 points)
= 129 total ship cost

*Take dual brace with agate usually, only times I would reconsider: Redirect for mass squads, or gain back the Evade for dodging ignition shots. / Salvo to proc Paragon / Walex to gain back Salvo or other single token / LTT for the triple reroll each turn.

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- Vanguard ( 4 points)
- Lando Calrissian (off) ( 4 points)
- Local Fire Control ( 4 points)
- Auxiliary Shields Team ( 3 points)
- Linked Turbolaser Towers ( 7 points)
= 73 total ship cost

*Usually roll with Brace / Redirect / Salvo, although again if facing onager the Vanguard is a 'may' effect, so keep evade. / Aux teams to set shields to 3/2/2, / Salvo with LTT for 2 red salvo dice plus rerolls on each shot. / Lando to save it from the classic neb kill shot.

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Jainas Light ( 2 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 60 total ship cost

*

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 58 total ship cost

** Both 90s to skirt at long range using intel/TRC to bring the pain on tokens.

1 Kanan Jarrus ( 19 points)
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)
1 Shara Bey ( 17 points)
1 Mart Mattin ( 22 points)
= 74 total squadron cost

Tycho/Shara to tie up / Kanan to work on ships with SAmission as well as key raids eg: dictor eng or quasar squads / Mart to lock down any open flanks or incoming channels for demo with mines, or mine my escape.

3 hours ago, EbonHawk said:

[ flagship ] Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)
- Kyrsta Agate (com) ( 20 points)
- Paragon ( 5 points)
- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)
- Local Fire Control ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Linked Turbolaser Towers ( 7 points)
= 129 total ship cost

*Take dual brace with agate usually, only times I would reconsider: Redirect for mass squads, or gain back the Evade for dodging ignition shots. / Salvo to proc Paragon / Walex to gain back Salvo or other single token / LTT for the triple reroll each turn.

I love this ship. Small bit of advice, ECM is unnecessary with Agate and Walex on the AFIIA. For your defensive retrofit, go Reinforced Blast Doors.

Also even against an Onager I'd still probably double brace. It gives you a double defense token to avoid Intel Officer shenanigans, and single accuracies, and even if your opponent gets perfect rolls, you've got 3 uses of Brace on 4+3+3 shields and effective 9 hull, which means you can tank quite a few ignitions before you go down.

6 hours ago, EbonHawk said:

[ flagship ] Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)

- Kyrsta Agate (com) ( 20 points)
- Paragon ( 5 points)
- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)
- Local Fire Control ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Linked Turbolaser Towers ( 7 points)
= 129 total ship cost

*Take dual brace with agate usually, only times I would reconsider: Redirect for mass squads, or gain back the Evade for dodging ignition shots. / Salvo to proc Paragon / Walex to gain back Salvo or other single token / LTT for the triple reroll each turn.

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51 points)
- Vanguard ( 4 points)
- Lando Calrissian (off) ( 4 points)
- Local Fire Control ( 4 points)
- Auxiliary Shields Team ( 3 points)
- Linked Turbolaser Towers ( 7 points)
= 73 total ship cost

*Usually roll with Brace / Redirect / Salvo, although again if facing onager the Vanguard is a 'may' effect, so keep evade. / Aux teams to set shields to 3/2/2, / Salvo with LTT for 2 red salvo dice plus rerolls on each shot. / Lando to save it from the classic neb kill shot.

So... which token would you typically dump for LFC’s Salvo on the MkIIA? The second Brace? The Evade?

Also, I think Vanguard is totally overupgraded. I get that people want to make it into a tank and Salvo back all day, but it’s just not worth it on the Neb-B’s fragile frame. Aux Shield Teams and a Redirect don’t make it a tank, they make it barely survivable, and dumping a “real” defense token (which helps keep you alive) for Salvo (which doesn’t) is taking a very expensive two steps forward and one step back. Even with Vanguard & Lando, the thing is gonna take three hits and die, and Salvo might shoot back 2 or 3 blasts of 2 red dice. That’s not even scary.

4 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

I love this ship. Small bit of advice, ECM is unnecessary with Agate and Walex on the AFIIA. For your defensive retrofit, go Reinforced Blast Doors.

Also even against an Onager I'd still probably double brace. It gives you a double defense token to avoid Intel Officer shenanigans, and single accuracies, and even if your opponent gets perfect rolls, you've got 3 uses of Brace on 4+3+3 shields and effective 9 hull, which means you can tank quite a few ignitions before you go down.

Good shout on ECMs with Agate, didn't think of it that way and saves a few key points.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

So... which token would you typically dump for LFC’s Salvo on the MkIIA? The second Brace? The Evade?

Yeah, evade would always be my most likely to swap out

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Also, I think Vanguard is totally overupgraded.

This may be one of the cheaper Vanguards, seen a lotta others with Gunnery Teams.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I get that people want to make it into a tank and Salvo back all day, but it’s just not worth it on the Neb-B’s fragile frame. Aux Shield Teams and a Redirect don’t make it a tank, they make it barely survivable, and dumping a “real” defense token (which helps keep you alive) for Salvo (which doesn’t) is taking a very expensive two steps forward and one step back.

With 3/2/2 Br/Red/Sal you've basically got a long range Victory SD with a couple less hull.. You would need 2 accs plus 8 damage to kill it, which assuming GOD dice is 6 dice minimum with 4 double hits (not many ships putting out 6 dice at Long range or getting those 4 double hits with dual accs....) and if some ship does make it through with the magic number... Landoooo. So 'barely survivable' I just wouldn't agree with, unless you're flying it nose first into enemy front arcs?

I fly the Vanguard as a vanguard as well, leading my CR90s in to battle along my flanks and drawing fire off Agate and the 90s, by the time it has died its likely used 1 or all defence tokens, and done enough dmg via its own arcs + salvo to the enemy for me to kill them with the Afk + 90s. So it's not expected to survive the game, just to help win it.

With LTT you'll do min 1/2 dmg with a spike of 4 dmg (not bad if you've not shoot the ship yet). It can also be used to Salvo squads. I mean 2-4 dmg back can be quite scary if you have all your ships lined up to shoot after it with Intel officers. People sometimes will Acc it over Braces and other tokens just for the threat of it hitting back with a 4 dmg spike.

That said if I were taking it to a store champs there's a good chance I'd swap vanguard with a 3rd intel 90.. depending on mood of the day.

28 minutes ago, EbonHawk said:

Good shout on ECMs with Agate, didn't think of it that way and saves a few key points.

Yeah, evade would always be my most likely to swap out

This may be one of the cheaper Vanguards, seen a lotta others with Gunnery Teams.

With 3/2/2 Br/Red/Sal you've basically got a long range Victory SD with a couple less hull.. You would need 2 accs plus 8 damage to kill it, which assuming GOD dice is 6 dice minimum with 4 double hits (not many ships putting out 6 dice at Long range or getting those 4 double hits with dual accs....) and if some ship does make it through with the magic number... Landoooo. So 'barely survivable' I just wouldn't agree with, unless you're flying it nose first into enemy front arcs?

I fly the Vanguard as a vanguard as well, leading my CR90s in to battle along my flanks and drawing fire off Agate and the 90s, by the time it has died its likely used 1 or all defence tokens, and done enough dmg via its own arcs + salvo to the enemy for me to kill them with the Afk + 90s. So it's not expected to survive the game, just to help win it.

With LTT you'll do min 1/2 dmg with a spike of 4 dmg (not bad if you've not shoot the ship yet). It can also be used to Salvo squads. I mean 2-4 dmg back can be quite scary if you have all your ships lined up to shoot after it with Intel officers. People sometimes will Acc it over Braces and other tokens just for the threat of it hitting back with a 4 dmg spike.

That said if I were taking it to a store champs there's a good chance I'd swap vanguard with a 3rd intel 90.. depending on mood of the day.

Gunnery Teams? On a Nebulon?? It’s got an incredibly narrow front arc. How often does anyone get two valid targets lined up in front of a Nebilon? And is it worth 7 points to throw 3 red dice at a second ship maybe once per game? That’s lunacy.

As for the Vanguard as you’re playing it here... I’m not saying people don’t try this. I’m saying it’s not a good use of points. Bad ideas often become very popular, and the Vanguard/LTTs/LFC Neb-B is one of them. It’s just a horrific number of points spent on a fairly fragile ship that gets more fragile once you drop one of only three relevant defense tokens.

Have you met the Onager? It’s very popular right now, and it eats frigates which don’t have “MC” in their names for lunch. You know what’s good when your Vanguard hits an Onager? Brace, Redirect, and Evade. You know what isn’t? Salvo.

The Ravager also doesn’t care about your Vanguard.

i think Vanguard is fine, but you’re spending 4 points on a title which gives you nothing, except the opportunity to trade a defense token, and the opportunity to spend *even more points* upgrading the ship than you would normally. I can see like, Vanguard, LTTs, Aux Shield Teams, go. But Lando and LFC and all that is getting too fancy. You know what I’d rather have than LFC and Lando? My Evade token back!

And comparing Vanguard to a VSD just doesn’t hold water. The main problem with the Neb-B is that A) it has those huuuuuge soft broadsides, and B) the reasonably dangerous and well-defended front arc is absolutely tiny. The VSD has a generously wide and super-dangerous front, smaller weak spots on the side, another point of shields all around than a Vanguard equipped with Aux Shield Teams, three more hull, and exponentially more dangerous guns, which serve as their own sort of deterrent. It’s a far more survivable and dangerous ship (and, incidentally, a much better Salvo platform, for exactly those reasons).

Vanguard helps the Neb survive, and it can get it through some tough situations, but making it into a Salvo ship just isn’t what this title is about. It’s far too expensive and unreliable. But, you do you! Maybe you like it better than I do.

Here's my current list using the AFIIAgate:

Name: Prickly Agate
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Kyrsta Agate

Assault: Surprise Attack
Defense: Asteroid Tactics
Navigation: Infested Fields

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
• Paragon (5)
= 120 Points

Assault Frigate Mk2 B (72)
• Captain Rex (5)
• Ruthless Strategists (4)
• Advanced Transponder Net (5)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 93 Points

Pelta Assault Ship (56)
• Ezra Bridger (3)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• External Racks (3)
= 68 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Toryn Farr (7)
• Comms Net (2)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• 3 x A-wing Squadron (33)
• Lando Calrissian (23)
= 89 Points

Total Points: 397

3 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Here's my current list using the AFIIAgate:

Name: Prickly Agate
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Kyrsta Agate

Assault: Surprise Attack
Defense: Asteroid Tactics
Navigation: Infested Fields

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Reinforced Blast Doors (5)
• Paragon (5)
= 120 Points

Assault Frigate Mk2 B (72)
• Captain Rex (5)
• Ruthless Strategists (4)
• Advanced Transponder Net (5)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 93 Points

Pelta Assault Ship (56)
• Ezra Bridger (3)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• External Racks (3)
= 68 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Toryn Farr (7)
• Comms Net (2)
= 27 Points

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• 3 x A-wing Squadron (33)
• Lando Calrissian (23)
= 89 Points

Total Points: 397

Now that’s a list I can dig. Still not a fan of Intensify Firepower, but I may just not be a buyer on that card in general.

1 minute ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Now that’s a list I can dig. Still not a fan of Intensify Firepower, but I may just not be a buyer on that card in general.

You need to consider expanding your repertoire then, especially when it comes to the point savings in dice fixing and guaranteeing damage on salvo.

Intensify Firepower is a really, really good card for Rebels, since they have a 54/60 point chassis to put it on.

1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:

You need to consider expanding your repertoire then, especially when it comes to the point savings in dice fixing and guaranteeing damage on salvo.

Intensify Firepower is a really, really good card for Rebels, since they have a 54/60 point chassis to put it on.

I guess there’s something slightly compelling about it with Salvo... maybe I’ll give it a go. It’s just that even if you get it to go off ten times in a game (which sounds like a TON), there’ll be a non-zero number of times it’s going to be totally useless, because you hit no blanks. Then there will be a very high number of times (close to 50%? Not a mathematician, but if you assume half your rolls come up odd...) where it doesn’t bump you up into the next Brace bracket, so it’s of very limited value there as well. So what are you really ending up with? 3 damage in a game? 4?

And then there’s the issue of needing a Pelta for it. And while certain lists like a Command Pelta as a carrier, the Assault is too slow for the guns it carries, and... I dunno. I find it a fairly narrow ship.

56 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I guess there’s something slightly compelling about it with Salvo... maybe I’ll give it a go. It’s just that even if you get it to go off ten times in a game (which sounds like a TON), there’ll be a non-zero number of times it’s going to be totally useless, because you hit no blanks. Then there will be a very high number of times (close to 50%? Not a mathematician, but if you assume half your rolls come up odd...) where it doesn’t bump you up into the next Brace bracket, so it’s of very limited value there as well. So what are you really ending up with? 3 damage in a game? 4?

And then there’s the issue of needing a Pelta for it. And while certain lists like a Command Pelta as a carrier, the Assault is too slow for the guns it carries, and... I dunno. I find it a fairly narrow ship.

If it's totally useless with no blanks, then cool! I didn't roll blanks!

As for braces, my strategy is to oversaturate braces with multiple smaller attacks. So, against a single brace opponent, 2 attacks means it's worth it. I have 3 combat ships, with a potential for 8 attacks (3 double arcs, and a salvo token exhausted and spent). Here's something I wrote more than 2 years ago.

http://www.steelstrategy.com/2017/12/intensify-firepower-is-really-really.html

But don't take my word for it, let's ask the North American Champion, Shmitty.

http://www.steelstrategy.com/2019/08/the-ballad-of-garm.html

http://www.steelstrategy.com/2019/08/how-to-build-dumpster-fire-ballad-of.html

Quote

Intensify Firepower! - IF! is the reason that this fleet even exists. I wanted to see if I could build an IF! fleet with 4 real ships that also pushed around some squadrons. IF! is a ridiculously efficient way to fix the dice in your fleet. It causes the expected damage floor of your attacks to raise by about a full point. IF! in this fleet is all about pressure. The constant stream of attacks, even with small dice pools, puts so much pressure on opposing ships. IF! means that there are no bad rolls and every attack must be accounted for my your opponent. It also relieves pressure from me as there have been more than one occurrence where just one damage will finish a ship and I don’t have to even think twice about the roll. It was a foregone conclusion.

23 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

If it's totally useless with no blanks, then cool! I didn't roll blanks!

As for braces, my strategy is to oversaturate braces with multiple smaller attacks. So, against a single brace opponent, 2 attacks means it's worth it. I have 3 combat ships, with a potential for 8 attacks (3 double arcs, and a salvo token exhausted and spent). Here's something I wrote more than 2 years ago.

http://www.steelstrategy.com/2017/12/intensify-firepower-is-really-really.html

But don't take my word for it, let's ask the North American Champion, Shmitty.

http://www.steelstrategy.com/2019/08/the-ballad-of-garm.html

http://www.steelstrategy.com/2019/08/how-to-build-dumpster-fire-ballad-of.html

I mean, it’s interesting, but I guess I’m having a hard time imagining the value being worth it for the sacrifices you’re making.

I mean, first, an Assault Pelta. I just can’t believe that thing has much value. That spot has got to be better filled by... any other reasonably competent combat ship? If nothing else, the Command Pelta?

Next, yay! You didn’t roll blanks. But BOO, you also paid points for something you didn’t use in that situation. But let’s just say sometimes insurance is good, and move on. Even if you rolled at least one blank on every single attack, about 50% of the time, you’ll be changing 3 damage to 4, or 5 damage to 6, and while it *might* make the opponent slightly more likely to spend his Brace, it’s quite often not going to meaningfully change the final outcome of things.

The chief exception to this would be situations where we’re talking very small chunks of damage. Changing 0 damage to 1, or 2 damage to 3, that sort of thing, that’s meaningful... which is why I’m slightly intrigued by the idea of using IF with Salvo. But my suspicion is that while you might flip dice a number of times during a game, much of the time it isn’t actually netting you any advantage. And rather than use a “for real” bad *** warship (which really would buy you more damage) you’re taking a slow, fragile, vulnerable ship which will usually fail to live long enough to fire a black die.

Still, I am intrigued by the idea, and I just wonder if this Schmitty guy was good enough to win despite using suboptimal pieces, or if my analysis just plain has a hole in it, so I may have to build this thing and give it a go!

@CptObvious Give it a try . Double arc some people. Your analysis probably has a hole in it

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I mean, it’s interesting, but I guess I’m having a hard time imagining the value being worth it for the sacrifices you’re making.

I mean, first, an Assault Pelta. I just can’t believe that thing has much value. That spot has got to be better filled by... any other reasonably competent combat ship? If nothing else, the Command Pelta?

Rolling black dice is not the point of the Assault Pelta. The point of the Assault Pelta is being a platform that is extremely difficult to one-shot carrying one of the best upgrades in the game. And it adds damage from the red dice. It is a fully competent combat ship.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Next, yay! You didn’t roll blanks. But BOO, you also paid points for something you didn’t use in that situation. But let’s just say sometimes insurance is good, and move on. Even if you rolled at least one blank on every single attack, about 50% of the time, you’ll be changing 3 damage to 4, or 5 damage to 6, and while it *might* make the opponent slightly more likely to spend his Brace, it’s quite often not going to meaningfully change the final outcome of things.

If the opponent does not spend his brace, then you've added damage. That's damage they either have to repair, or that you don't have to apply later. Damage is good. On the note of insurance, does then the Nebulon and Raider invalidate XI7? Or shooting at a shieldless ship?

Also, rolling blanks is extremely common. On any given side arc roll from Demolisher, which is rolling the famously reliable black dice, there is a 68% chance of at least one blank. Out of the front arc of a Star Destroyer, or a Liberty, that chance skyrockets. You are sorely underestimating the utility of being able to not Leading Shots or just not need more correction if you don't have to.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

The chief exception to this would be situations where we’re talking very small chunks of damage. Changing 0 damage to 1, or 2 damage to 3, that sort of thing, that’s meaningful... which is why I’m slightly intrigued by the idea of using IF with Salvo. But my suspicion is that while you might flip dice a number of times during a game, much of the time it isn’t actually netting you any advantage. And rather than use a “for real” bad *** warship (which really would buy you more damage) you’re taking a slow, fragile, vulnerable ship which will usually fail to live long enough to fire a black die.

Chunks of small damage is the entire MO of Dumpster Fire. It overwhelms defense tokens, and it breaks ships. Re: the Pelta being bad, see Part 1 of this post.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Still, I am intrigued by the idea, and I just wonder if this Schmitty guy was good enough to win despite using suboptimal pieces, or if my analysis just plain has a hole in it, so I may have to build this thing and give it a go!

First, it's @shmitty. Second, your analysis has a hole in it. See next part.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

It’s quite often not going to meaningfully change the final outcome of things.

This just isn't true. Two of my NOVA games were won exclusively on the basis of IF generating the one hit required for kills to table and earn 10-1s. And that's just the times I can easily point out how good getting six guaranteed damage a turn (three double-arcing combatants, plus odds and ends of Gozantis) made the difference.

Here's my writeup on how my NOVA list works, which to be fair does not focus on the power of IF as much as Chimaera's ability to give me IF : link

And here's the tournament writeup, which does bring up that the two games I won in the cut were both won by IF: link

2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

The chief exception to this would be situations where we’re talking very small chunks of damage. Changing 0 damage to 1, or 2 damage to 3, that sort of thing, that’s meaningful... which is why I’m slightly intrigued by the idea of using IF with Salvo. But my suspicion is that while you might flip dice a number of times during a game, much of the time it isn’t actually netting you any advantage. And rather than use a “for real” bad *** warship (which really would buy you more damage) you’re taking a slow, fragile, vulnerable ship which will usually fail to live long enough to fire a black die.

As stated above, it's for chip damage. Sure, it will often increase the damage output of larger dice pools (including those long range shots that tend to be uncontrolled and sometimes don't stick at all.)

But turning a bunch of unreliable side arcs and long range shots into constant damage is amazing, and the lists that do that aren't worried about braces, they're worried about hitting at all. Now they get a guarantee every single attack will do something, which is rare and powerful. You're basically buying LTTs for your entire fleet, if LTTs didn't roll blanks.

And since it's very cost effective to be able to run ships naked, you can bring more ships. Who will also benefit from IF.

I once saw Nate Coda run an 8 activation fleet where 5 of the ships were naked, 1 was an Assault Pelta with IF, and one was a flotilla to comms net over IF. That list was terrifying. IF is NUTS.

1 hour ago, geek19 said:

I once saw Nate Coda run an 8 activation fleet where 5 of the ships were naked, 1 was an Assault Pelta with IF, and one was a flotilla to comms net over IF. That list was terrifying. IF is NUTS.

Pretty sure I got tabled by that fleet or something similar.

Interesting. I’m the first to admit that my group and I are a bit isolated, but every time one of us has put IF on the table, it’s literally done nothing but suck up a ConFire token every turn to *maybe* add 2-3 damage over a whole game, and I’d kind of dismissed it as a trap (indeed, I think that as a class, most Fleet Command upgrades are pretty bad, or very, very narrow and waaay overused). I figured it might shine a bit brighter in the sort of MSU lists that I tend to avoid, but in your average 3-4 combat ship list? I mean, sure, high ceiling! But the floor is just terribly low, and I don’t tend to pick upgrades based on their ceiling.

Still, I know your handles, and have read your plastic spaceship journalism enough to know that many of you know your stuff. And I haven’t won any notable tournaments lately (not that there are any within 300 miles of me, despite New York being one of the most populous States in the Union, go figure), so maybe I oughtta check it out.

7 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Interesting. I’m the first to admit that my group and I are a bit isolated, but every time one of us has put IF on the table, it’s literally done nothing but suck up a ConFire token every turn to *maybe* add 2-3 damage over a whole game, and I’d kind of dismissed it as a trap (indeed, I think that as a class, most Fleet Command upgrades are pretty bad, or very, very narrow and waaay overused). I figured it might shine a bit brighter in the sort of MSU lists that I tend to avoid, but in your average 3-4 combat ship list? I mean, sure, high ceiling! But the floor is just terribly low, and I don’t tend to pick upgrades based on their ceiling.

Still, I know your handles, and have read your plastic spaceship journalism enough to know that many of you know your stuff. And I haven’t won any notable tournaments lately (not that there are any within 300 miles of me, despite New York being one of the most populous States in the Union, go figure), so maybe I oughtta check it out.

Consider it this way. On average, a ConFire token should generate one additional damage on one attack; however that improvement is not guaranteed. Now you have a guaranteed one damage, on every attack, on every ship. That's exceptionally good.

Here is one of my takes on agate vanguard potatoe what do you think? One thought was to take off racks on the pelts and lower the slave turrets to quad battery for bulkhead of frigate but I wasn't sure on that.

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 122 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 20 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

Pelta Assault Ship (56)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• External Racks (3)
= 65 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41)
• Slaved Turrets (6)
= 47 Points

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 33 Points

Total Points: 399

What taters precious?

16 hours ago, stev said:

Here is one of my takes on agate vanguard potatoe what do you think? One thought was to take off racks on the pelts and lower the slave turrets to quad battery for bulkhead of frigate but I wasn't sure on that.

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 122 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 20 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

Pelta Assault Ship (56)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• External Racks (3)
= 65 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41)
• Slaved Turrets (6)
= 47 Points

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 33 Points

Total Points: 399

I love a lot of things about this list.

The GR75 wants Comms Net more than Bright Hope (I think)

With IF! I'm not sure Vanguard or Paragon need LTT for anti-ship damage, though for anti-squadron maybe. I'd actually promote Vanguard to a Escort Frigate (with LTT) and pull them off the A... but you also need Reinforced Blast Doors on the A. Trust me.

Trust me.

On 3/16/2020 at 12:45 PM, BiggsIRL said:

Here's my current list using the AFIIAgate:

Name: Prickly Agate
Faction: Rebel
Commander: Kyrsta Agate

...

Assault Frigate Mk2 B (72)
• Captain Rex (5)
• Ruthless Strategists (4)
• Advanced Transponder Net (5)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 93 Points

...

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
• 3 x A-wing Squadron (33)
• Lando Calrissian (23)
= 89 Points

Total Points: 397

RS....with A-wings?!?!?!

You're crazy, man. CRAZY!

Though I like the point about RBD's. Will have to give that a try.

On 3/18/2020 at 5:56 AM, stev said:

Here is one of my takes on agate vanguard potatoe what do you think? One thought was to take off racks on the pelts and lower the slave turrets to quad battery for bulkhead of frigate but I wasn't sure on that.

Assault Frigate Mk2 A (81)
• Kyrsta Agate (20)
• Walex Blissex (5)
• Local Fire Control (4)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Paragon (5)
= 122 Points

GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
• Bright Hope (2)
= 20 Points

Hammerhead Torpedo Corvette (36)
• External Racks (3)
• Garel's Honor (4)
= 43 Points

Pelta Assault Ship (56)
• Intensify Firepower! (6)
• External Racks (3)
= 65 Points

Nebulon-B Support Refit (51)
• Auxiliary Shields Team (3)
• Linked Turbolaser Towers (7)
• Vanguard (4)
• Local Fire Control (4)
= 69 Points

Hammerhead Scout Corvette (41)
• Slaved Turrets (6)
= 47 Points

Squadrons:
• Shara Bey (17)
• Tycho Celchu (16)
= 33 Points

Total Points: 399

Man, I guess people are committed to trying this Vanguard—>Local Fire Control Neb-B. I see the attraction, I do, but the problems with this are numerous... the biggest one being that you’re forced to sacrifice a real defense token, and Nebulon-Bs are notoriously fragile to begin with. So you use Vanguard to trade your redundant Brace for a Redirect, giving you Redirect, Brave, Evade. Then you use LFC to get Salvo, giving up what? Not Brace, surely. Redirect? Uhhh... maaaybe, but seeing as you can buy extra shields with these Auxiliary Shield Teams everyone puts on them, it seems like that’s not a great idea. Evade? I think, given the long-range mission profile of the Neb-B, Evade was a pretty important token BEFORE the Onager... but with the Onager around, I think it’s occasionally going to just end up being suicide to dump your Evade for a Salvo (an EXTRA bad trade because you’ll never get close enough to Salvo the Onager!).

No matter what you end up doing, you’re reducing your survivability. And you’re reducing survivability to get a “defense” token that not only doesn’t help you stay alive at all, it requires that you *get shot at* to make it have value.

Getting shot at also tends to reduce survivability.

The reason Salvo is so good on VSDs and AFMkIIs is because these are durable ships that can take a few hits before they break, and shooting back 2-3 dice every time they take fire can really add 6-8 dice over the course of a game, maybe even more. Even if they’re missing a real defense token. Vanguard, even if you add all the bells and whistles, might just die in one shot, or be so badly crippled that the second shot or a quick Maarek/Jendon will do her in.

I mean, if you’re gonna LFC on a Nebulon, I feel like you just go *cheap*. I haven’t done a ton of theorycrafting on it, but maybe just Vanguard, LFC, and call it a day? You have that horrid little Assault Pelta for IF fixing for your unreliable reds. Maybe that’s enough? I dunno. I just think this is not the way to use your Vanguard Weapons Team slot.

Might just be me though. Plenty of people seem committed to trying this.

2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Man, I guess people are committed to trying this Vanguard—>Local Fire Control Neb-B. I see the attraction, I do, but the problems with this are numerous... the biggest one being that you’re forced to sacrifice a real defense token, and Nebulon-Bs are notoriously fragile to begin with. So you use Vanguard to trade your redundant Brace for a Redirect, giving you Redirect, Brave, Evade. Then you use LFC to get Salvo, giving up what? Not Brace, surely. Redirect? Uhhh... maaaybe, but seeing as you can buy extra shields with these Auxiliary Shield Teams everyone puts on them, it seems like that’s not a great idea. Evade? I think, given the long-range mission profile of the Neb-B, Evade was a pretty important token BEFORE the Onager... but with the Onager around, I think it’s occasionally going to just end up being suicide to dump your Evade for a Salvo (an EXTRA bad trade because you’ll never get close enough to Salvo the Onager!).

No matter what you end up doing, you’re reducing your survivability. And you’re reducing survivability to get a “defense” token that not only doesn’t help you stay alive at all, it requires that you *get shot at* to make it have value.

Getting shot at also tends to reduce survivability.

The reason Salvo is so good on VSDs and AFMkIIs is because these are durable ships that can take a few hits before they break, and shooting back 2-3 dice every time they take fire can really add 6-8 dice over the course of a game, maybe even more. Even if they’re missing a real defense token. Vanguard, even if you add all the bells and whistles, might just die in one shot, or be so badly crippled that the second shot or a quick Maarek/Jendon will do her in.

I mean, if you’re gonna LFC on a Nebulon, I feel like you just go *cheap*. I haven’t done a ton of theorycrafting on it, but maybe just Vanguard, LFC, and call it a day? You have that horrid little Assault Pelta for IF fixing for your unreliable reds. Maybe that’s enough? I dunno. I just think this is not the way to use your Vanguard Weapons Team slot.

Might just be me though. Plenty of people seem committed to trying this.

Just FYI, Local Fire control is a must. Vanguard is a may, so you can choose to not take the redirect.

If worried about Onagers take a lando to palm off the first ignition, or just close in quick with its speed 3.. The Oni shouldn't be a problem.. just close it down then even if it's shooting ignition arc you can be in blue/black range (no evade needed). Or get round into its side arc, start throwing 3 red dice into those weak shields, then add salvo when you're shot to shoot back. And crucially the Onager will have other ships to shoot, so the Vanguard will tank a few shots which is want you want it do to. For a 69pt ship it's remarkably hardy and gives a nice punch against ships or squads with LTTs

33 minutes ago, EbonHawk said:

Just FYI, Local Fire control is a must. Vanguard is a may, so you can choose to not take the redirect.

If worried about Onagers take a lando to palm off the first ignition, or just close in quick with its speed 3.. The Oni shouldn't be a problem.. just close it down then even if it's shooting ignition arc you can be in blue/black range (no evade needed). Or get round into its side arc, start throwing 3 red dice into those weak shields, then add salvo when you're shot to shoot back. And crucially the Onager will have other ships to shoot, so the Vanguard will tank a few shots which is want you want it do to. For a 69pt ship it's remarkably hardy and gives a nice punch against ships or squads with LTTs

Not sure why you’d even use Vanguard if not for a Redirect. If you’re only using it for LFC, you’re essentially paying 8 points and a real defense token (whatever one you choose) for 2 red dice, maybe three times a game before you’ve either blown your token or Vanguard’s dead. I’ve flown Vanguard at an SSD and had it evaporated in one shot... *after* getting bonus shields from Auxiliary Shield Teams (and I DIDN’T have a Salvo token on it!). I’ve never flown it at an Onager, but I’ve had several flown against my Onager, and they don’t tend to make it past midfield. The only Neb-B that has so far survived turn three against a fleet of mine that contained an Onager was one where my opponent made the very interesting choice of putting Admiral Agate on the Vanguard. It had 2 Brace, 1 Evade, 1 Redirect, plus a buff from Aux Shield Teams, and it *barely* survived into turn 6 (on 2 or 3 hull) because I had spent turns 1-3 focus-firing his AFMkIIB to death.

Neb-Bs are fine little flankers, and Yavaris is Yavaris, and sometimes Salvation or Vanguard can be great. I just feel like I get the best return when I keep them cheap and don’t count on them lasting very long. If LFC is giving you guys the returns you desire, great! I just think it’s a lot of hoops to jump through for far too fragile a platform.

And solutions like, “add Lando” don’t do it for me at all, because that’s going the opposite way of where I think it oughtta go; you’re spending even more resources, and giving up even more points when it inevitably dies.

Appreciate the lively debate, by the way!