Is Dash still Bad?

By Npmartian, in X-Wing

I too was very confused by the argument that the TIE Phantom should be 4-dice again; I actually like the idea of dropping the attacks of the YT2400 & Ghost thanks mainly to the phantom's example.

Part of the TIE Phantom's massive success story in 2.0 has been thanks to reducing its attack dice to 3, which greatly opened up the design space. It was so successful, it had to be nerfed twice later. FFG didn't quite realize how strong 4 juking phantoms would be when cheap enough (to be fair, it took the community some time to notice too), and shipping Vader + Whisper ended up being quite the power couple. All this from making the ship weaker .

I had fun with 1.0's generic phantoms with lightweight frame (never cloaking, just flying them as frail doom cannons). They weren't great and they didn't belong in the meta, ever , but they were entertaining little nuke launchers to pair with an ace or decimator and set traps. But 1.0's phantoms were doomed to always be too pricey for what you get, relegated to casual curiosities, save for Whisper occasionally being good depending on what the meta was up to. When 2.0 came around with its new, very subdued meta, phantoms being 4-dice attackers certainly made balancing them very difficult; removing that problem allowed FFG to finally fix the TIE Phantom and restore it to the glory it deserved. Now they could lean into the ship's core feature: its cloaking. And the ship is not just better for it, it's interesting and distinct in its design, and fascinating to fly. Guys, how much fun are Phantoms? FFG frick'n pulled the rabbit out of the hat with that one.

And granted, at times it was too powerful in 2.0, and then the crew slot changed and Juke was nerfed, and now we don't see TIE Phantoms all the time anymore. That's how FFG do . :D But it's also expected in a game this complex.

So when people in this thread suggest dropping the attack power of the ghost or yt2400, they do so because we've seen it work. A ship that was flagging in 1.0 and constrained by its stats became interesting and quite powerful in 2.0 by making it weaker . That sounds paradoxical, but clearly it works and we watched it play out. If FFG dropped the yt2400 and ghost to 3 dice tomorrow and adjusted their points, perhaps even errata'd their titles to give them some interesting options to go along with it, I think we'd recover from the no-four-dice shellshock pretty quickly. Especially when Dash, Outer Rims, and Ghosts started haunting the table again, but this time hopefully not as a NPE for either player. Dropping their attack power would allow FFG to lean into other aspects of those ships that could make them very interesting. And also allow them to see a lot more play, thanks to a lowered price or greater utility.

Not to oversell the solution... I'm not actually sure if dropping the attack dice is the right solution (there may be other options), but I can certainly see it being a viable step to revitalize the ship. As with the phantoms, Dash doesn't need 4 attack dice to be Dash; his ability and ship ability are probably sufficient. Dash would be a 3-dice attacker (2 at range 1) with crazy mobility who can finally afford proper allies. Is this good for the meta, or is his ability auto-NPE? I'm not sure; he may need other adjustments. But I'm kinda optimistic that the ship is very fixable, and this is a path that imo could work.

FFG may even considering fixes like this, but if so, I assume they're taking it slow and playtesting. Not only do they not want to make the errata'd ships too weak, but they also don't want to make them too strong. The TIE Phantom fix worked really forking well, after all. ;)

Dash Rendar (91)
Trick Shot (4)
Bistan (14)
Kanan Jarrus (12)
Outrider (14)

Ship total: 135 Half Points: 68 Threshold: 5

Magva Yarro (50)
K-2SO (8)
Tactical Officer (6)
Pivot Wing (0)

Ship total: 64 Half Points: 32 Threshold: 4


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z39X133WW77W41WW157WY34XWW314W61WW140W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

or...

Wild Space Fringer (77)
Feedback Array (3)

Ship total: 80 Half Points: 40 Threshold: 5

Wild Space Fringer (77)
Feedback Array (3)

Ship total: 80 Half Points: 40 Threshold: 5

Cavern Angels Zealot (39)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 3


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z41XWWWWW94Y41XWWWWW94Y0XWWWW142&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

5 hours ago, Wazat said:

I too was very confused by the argument that the TIE Phantom should be 4-dice again; I actually like the idea of dropping the attacks of the YT2400 & Ghost thanks mainly to the phantom's example.

Part of the TIE Phantom's massive success story in 2.0 has been thanks to reducing its attack dice to 3, which greatly opened up the design space. It was so successful, it had to be nerfed twice later. FFG didn't quite realize how strong 4 juking phantoms would be when cheap enough (to be fair, it took the community some time to notice too), and shipping Vader + Whisper ended up being quite the power couple. All this from making the ship weaker .

I had fun with 1.0's generic phantoms with lightweight frame (never cloaking, just flying them as frail doom cannons). They weren't great and they didn't belong in the meta, ever , but they were entertaining little nuke launchers to pair with an ace or decimator and set traps. But 1.0's phantoms were doomed to always be too pricey for what you get, relegated to casual curiosities, save for Whisper occasionally being good depending on what the meta was up to. When 2.0 came around with its new, very subdued meta, phantoms being 4-dice attackers certainly made balancing them very difficult; removing that problem allowed FFG to finally fix the TIE Phantom and restore it to the glory it deserved. Now they could lean into the ship's core feature: its cloaking. And the ship is not just better for it, it's interesting and distinct in its design, and fascinating to fly. Guys, how much fun are Phantoms? FFG frick'n pulled the rabbit out of the hat with that one.

And granted, at times it was too powerful in 2.0, and then the crew slot changed and Juke was nerfed, and now we don't see TIE Phantoms all the time anymore. That's how FFG do . :D But it's also expected in a game this complex.

So when people in this thread suggest dropping the attack power of the ghost or yt2400, they do so because we've seen it work. A ship that was flagging in 1.0 and constrained by its stats became interesting and quite powerful in 2.0 by making it weaker . That sounds paradoxical, but clearly it works and we watched it play out. If FFG dropped the yt2400 and ghost to 3 dice tomorrow and adjusted their points, perhaps even errata'd their titles to give them some interesting options to go along with it, I think we'd recover from the no-four-dice shellshock pretty quickly. Especially when Dash, Outer Rims, and Ghosts started haunting the table again, but this time hopefully not as a NPE for either player. Dropping their attack power would allow FFG to lean into other aspects of those ships that could make them very interesting. And also allow them to see a lot more play, thanks to a lowered price or greater utility.

Not to oversell the solution... I'm not actually sure if dropping the attack dice is the right solution (there may be other options), but I can certainly see it being a viable step to revitalize the ship. As with the phantoms, Dash doesn't need 4 attack dice to be Dash; his ability and ship ability are probably sufficient. Dash would be a 3-dice attacker (2 at range 1) with crazy mobility who can finally afford proper allies. Is this good for the meta, or is his ability auto-NPE? I'm not sure; he may need other adjustments. But I'm kinda optimistic that the ship is very fixable, and this is a path that imo could work.

FFG may even considering fixes like this, but if so, I assume they're taking it slow and playtesting. Not only do they not want to make the errata'd ships too weak, but they also don't want to make them too strong. The TIE Phantom fix worked really forking well, after all. ;)

Keep in mind this also included stapling the ship's best 1.0 upgrade to every chassis. So if we dropped the YT-2400's gun down to 3 dice, we'd probably change the ship ability too.

In contrast, I thought the ship might be better with a permanent forward arc and a secondary rotating arc, like the Shadowcaster, just like in the game where some missions had you sitting in the turret, and others played more like Star Fox. Or a Leebo crew/gunner that allowed for an action linked into turret-rotation.

On 3/11/2020 at 8:21 PM, BenDay said:

Great thread, made me want to revisit my old buddy dash. This will be my next squad.

Z-95-AF4 Headhunter - •Airen Cracken - 36
•Airen Cracken - Intelligence Chief (36)

YT-2400 Light Freighter - •Dash Rendar - 109
•Dash Rendar - Hotshot Mercenary (91)
Trick Shot (4)
Outrider (14)

Z-95-AF4 Headhunter - Tala Squadron Pilot - 25
Tala Squadron Pilot - (24)
Crack Shot (1)

Z-95-AF4 Headhunter - •Lieutenant Blount - 30
•Lieutenant Blount - Team Player (30)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Dash is the squad and the Zs hang out around him as support. Take the three biggest obstacles

So I have not had a chance to play this against a human (Italian quarantine and all) but I have gotten smashed by fly casual every time. 5 X-Wings are a lot of 3 dice attacks... As was said before, it is too easy to get two 3 red dice attacks for the same price and Dash's 2 green just mean you pay more for his 10 hit points then you should. I think large ships should take a play out of the huge ships book and get a way to pay for a second attack (yes Bistan, but less restrictive).

I honestly believe if Dash was 90 points and Outrider was 10, he'd be fair and competitive. That's still half a list, but you can give him some upgrades and still have a decent wingman or mini-swarm.

Also, can we talk about Agile Gunner and the action economy it provides?

Edited by StriderZessei
33 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

I honestly believe if Dash was 90 points and Outrider was 10, he'd be fair and competitive. That's still half a list, but you can give him some upgrades and still have a decent wingman or mini-swarm.

Also, can we talk about Agile Gunner and the action economy it provides?

I honestly believe AG should be 2 points!!!

I mean COME ON you already took away 360 shooting (which is good) but DANG it’s easier to keep an X-Wing on target, bruh.

BESIDES it’s in the end phase! There’s no way to make a less informed decision.

AND it takes your gunner slot too!

Edited by JBFancourt
2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I honestly believe AG should be 2 points!!!

I mean COME ON you already took away 360 shooting (which is good) but DANG it’s easier to keep an X-Wing on target, bruh.

BESIDES it’s in the end phase! There’s no way to make a less informed decision.

AND it takes your gunner slot too!

The old 1e Gyroscopic Targeting was the equivalent of 4 points, and required you to have done a speed 3-4-5 move. While I think 8 is too high on Agile Gunner, 2 seems really cheap. 5 points?

A Y-Wing with ICT and 5 point Agile Gunner would be a really interesting 40 points.

At 2 points... I'm a little bit scared of the 33 point breakpoint on an ICT TIE Aggressor. I think that'd a lot of fun to play with, but it makes me nervous...

I'd rather not get the gun downgraded unless there was a way to get it back. The Outrider specifically had that the heavy guns. If you could down the whole chassis, but keep the Outrider, that would be cool to me.

Man, the 2400 is just so hard to get back to rights though. Anything you do to it is a real slippery slope.

Like if you leaned into the newer strain and deplete mechanics you might have an approach, but at that point your doing a major overhaul of a lot of that ship.

I'm afraid Dash is never gonna dance again, his guilty feet have got no rhythem 😝

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The old 1e Gyroscopic Targeting was the equivalent of 4 points, and required you to have done a speed 3-4-5 move. While I think 8 is too high on Agile Gunner, 2 seems really cheap. 5 points?

A Y-Wing with ICT and 5 point Agile Gunner would be a really interesting 40 points.

At 2 points... I'm a little bit scared of the 33 point breakpoint on an ICT TIE Aggressor. I think that'd a lot of fun to play with, but it makes me nervous...

While I understand your concerns....

Can we please TRY it???

Large bases and turrets as a whole took an insane hit to their efficiency and viability. One I FULLY support. But think about it for a moment: it’s done before any dials are set, several turreted ships need the help, AND it’s still leaving blind spots that all manner of ships can exploit.

It’s a bit of a compromise that permits ships like the Decimator/falcon that used to be able to take an action and boost and still shoot anywhere (Dash could BR/Boost), to still AT LEAST fully use its dial. I fly a fair bit of dual arc large base ships, the dern turret indicators direct their movement more than their dials!

Back when we discussed making large base weapon platforms more efficient there were lots of ideas (2x attack, 2x actions, etc obviously scaling cost with the changes). My suggestion was just give it more of the feel of having true turrets by giving any dual arc primary ship the built in text of AG.

I do miss that turrets don’t feel like turrets anymore.

Edited by JBFancourt
3 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

While I understand your concerns....

Can we please TRY it???

Large bases and turrets as a whole took an insane hit to their efficiency and viability. One I FULLY support. But think about it for a moment: it’s done before any dials are set, several turreted ships need the help, AND it’s still leaving blind spots that all manner of ships can exploit.

It’s a bit of a compromise that permits ships like the Decimator/falcon that used to be able to take an action and boost and still shoot anywhere (Dash could BR/Boost), to still AT LEAST fully use its dial. I fly a fair bit of dual arc large base ships, the dern turret indicators direct their movement more than their dials!

Back when we discussed making large base weapon platforms more efficient there were lots of ideas (2x attack, 2x actions, etc obviously scaling cost with the changes). My suggestion was just give it more of the feel of having true turrets by giving any dual arc primary ship the built in text of AG.

I do miss that turrets don’t feel like turrets anymore.

I'd still rather drop less quickly. I think Leia going from 8 to 2 was a mistake which dominated the metagame for six months.

I don't think that Agile Gunner would be quite as impactful, but I think it'd be really good on almost every turret ship, since almost every turret ship leaves their gunner slot empty. I think 2 point Agile Gunner probably trivializes turret arcs.

I am curious about how future named ships could be handled. Like the Ghost had the advantage of obviously needing some of it's special rules scattered onto the Sheathipede ship card, the Phantom title, and the VCX ship card, and Ghost title itself. But then the poor Outrider got everything lumped into just it's ship and title. Essentially, the extra cardboard real estate of the Ghost being by nature on different components got it A LOT of places to isolate effects and cost.

Back in first Ed that was an advantage to how they ended up with old Outrider. The pilot ability was on one card, the turret was on it's own, but you still had to buy the gun which was on another, and then buy the engine on yet another. Which kinda worked out really well. If you could adjust slots and prices in first the way you could now, Dash may have been fixable.

Now everything is packed on two cards, and lump summed together. So you can't really adjust parts of it individually. Like I can't just make a new Canon card and price the old one to Oblivion to fix the gun. I have to edit the whole pilot.

An interesting avenue to me would be that going forward and in far future overhauls you try to get to a happy median. Like the chassis just had a base gun, Dash pilot stays the same, have the flying effect of Outrider on the title, the shooting mods get put on a Leebo crew card, and then the upgraded gun gets it's own "title gun" card if that makes sense? For instance:

" Dymek Heavy Laser Turrets, 8pts, 'Outrider only'. Your primary turret firepower is 4. Roll one less die when attacking at range 0-1

Edited by ForceSensitive
Spelling, added a line
2 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

An interesting avenue to me would be that going forward and in far future overhauls you try to get to a happy median. Like the chassis just had a base gun, Dash pilot stays the same, have the flying effect of Outrider on the title, the shooting mods get put on a Leebo crew card, and then the upgraded gun gets it's own "title gun" card if that makes sense? For instance:

" Dymek Heavy Laser Turrets, 8pts, 'Outrider only'. Your primary turret firepower is 4. Roll one less die when attacking at range 0-1

An alternative way to get a similar effect is to offer downgrade cards to strip the ship down to a lighter frame. Leave everything the same, price it as it is now. Now let the player choose to equip a title, configuration, etc that lowers the cost and attack power, maybe other stats, because they are field-stripping the craft down to basics. Perhaps this also comes with some versatile ability that changes how the ship works slightly, giving it another playstyle.

Like imagine if FFG started all Delta-7s with the Delta-7B full stats, but let players equip a Lightweight configuration that removed shields and attack and gave them the Calibrated Laser Targeting ability.

This is less refined than starting low and paying to upgrade, but if you're stuck with the cards you have, this is an option to fix it without erratas.

'Step down' is certainly an option, and they've certainly utilized in the past. I wager at some point we might get something akin to it again. But for now I'd be content to just wait for the next change to overhaul the design in a few years with like a 2.1 update. I mean that positively. They've added a few mechanics since relaunch that would be great to implement backwards onto some things. Like Strain and Deplete most notably.

The 2400 especially could utilize those to balance out movement shenanigans. And big guns stuff lol