5 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

I think, rather, it's the four-dice primary that should never, ever, ever, have been allowed. These ships aren't paying for any 1st Ed. sins - that's the Jumpmaster. They *are* paying for that four-dice primary, amazing pilot abilities, and excellent dials. The Upsilon does so, too, to a lesser extent, although most of their pilot abilities aren't quite as fantastically strong and it doesn't have access to a turret to further ramp up the amaze-balls.

I hadn't looked at it that way. But that still speaks to my point about 2nd being a coat of paint at least for these ships. They just brought so much stuff forward without really re-designing a few things that seem to have really needed it.

Dash is fine.

Outrider needs to be expensive, otherwise you have an I5 4 dice primary chucking 4 dice at R2/3 with no obstruction bonus, which is hilariously broken.

Dash + LW + Kanan + title. You then get 78 points to spend on a wingman.

His big problem right now is that 2-ship lists are decidedly difficult to fly. But "fixing" that by making him cheaper is hilariously NOT the way to go.

Dash with Ezra, Maul, Outrider and Expert Handling could be interesting. Very expensive at 135 points, but Dash is better positioned than most to deal with the stress from Maul, and double Force points allows him to maximize the impact of that 4-die cannon and would pair well with a target-lock action.

Dash is bad. One 4-dice gun with 10hp is nowhere near as good as two Red Squadron Veterans.

Dash should have gone down to 3 dice primary. Maybe with an expensive title granting 4 dice. That ship ability is stupid horrible design., it would have been better as literally 0 dice at R1.

If it was 3 dice, we wouldn't worry about it being a massive NPE. And you'd get more options to build with a lower cost.

If any ships shoulda kept the 4 red dice: Tie Phantom with their new very nerf'ed states (who probably did not need a dial creep buff), and Upsilons.

YT2400 and VCX probably should not have. They never even really needed it. VCX maybe can keep just as a pure differentiator the large amounts of bulky stuff in rebel faction, but really that ship has upgrade options that buff damage out the wazoo.

40 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

If any ships shoulda kept the 4 red dice: Tie Phantom with their new very nerf'ed states

Are you mad!?

The supposedly nerfed Whisper is possibly the best all-round individual ship in Second Edition, and almost certainly the best all-round individual ship her faction has access to. The supposedly nerfed generics nearly broke the game early in Second Edition's life, and even after their points increases still show up in Extended cuts with regularity.

I absolutely do not want to live in the world where that ship still has 4 attack dice.

I don't think Dash is good , but I'd put him in the zone of "playable for funsies in a casual game".

With Bistan and some good dice rolls he can dish a lot of damage. But he can also explode quite quickly without doing much if he gets caught in a bad spot. It's very much an "all your eggs in one very expensive basket" situation.

2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Are you mad!?

The supposedly nerfed Whisper is possibly the best all-round individual ship in Second Edition, and almost certainly the best all-round individual ship her faction has access to. The supposedly nerfed generics nearly broke the game early in Second Edition's life, and even after their points increases still show up in Extended cuts with regularity.

I absolutely do not want to live in the world where that ship still has 4 attack dice.

They’d be much more expensive...

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

They’d be much more expensive...

They'd be so expensive as to be completely unplayable.

There is no price you could put on a 4-attack Whisper to make her a balanced ship. Either she's playable and breaks the game, or she's not playable and, well, isn't played.

Just now, DR4CO said:

They'd be so expensive as to be completely unplayable.

There is no price you could put on a 4-attack Whisper to make her a balanced ship. Either she's playable and breaks the game, or she's not playable and, well, isn't played.

Yeah no. That’s not what history said.

Even in her current iteration the two dice makes her incredibly avoidant of taking damage.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Yeah no. That’s not what history said.

Even in her current iteration the two dice makes her incredibly avoidant of taking damage.

Yea that ain’t why she doesn’t die....

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Dash should have gone down to 3 dice primary. Maybe with an expensive title granting 4 dice. That ship ability is stupid horrible design., it would have been better as literally 0 dice at R1.

If it was 3 dice, we wouldn't worry about it being a massive NPE. And you'd get more options to build with a lower cost.

If any ships shoulda kept the 4 red dice: Tie Phantom with their new very nerf'ed states (who probably did not need a dial creep buff), and Upsilons.

YT2400 and VCX probably should not have. They never even really needed it. VCX maybe can keep just as a pure differentiator the large amounts of bulky stuff in rebel faction, but really that ship has upgrade options that buff damage out the wazoo.

So we're here saying that part of the issue with the YT2400 and VCX is the four dice attack and your solution is to make it three and make some other faction's ship four dice while still allowing it the range one bonus? A ship that could potentially perform a re-position and the start and then two re-positions (with afterburners) and its maneuver in a turn at I5?

K2SO isn't so bad on him. Grab a calculate and a stress, fly over a gas cloud, lose the stress, grab a lock, throw four almost fully modded dice. Of course, starts at 113 points, but maybe?

29 minutes ago, Okapi said:

K2SO isn't so bad on him. Grab a calculate and a stress, fly over a gas cloud, lose the stress, grab a lock, throw four almost fully modded dice. Of course, starts at 113 points, but maybe?

Yea totally too expensive. Not even worth trying. Nothing to see here move along.

Deathray Dash (Dash/Han crew+Roark) was brutal, double tapping with 4-5 dice, focusing on a single ship, that was (too) effective. However, I am afraid the Bistan builds are a trap, as being forced to split fire is simply not acceptable in a competitative situation.

I only think there is hope for Dash if his fire power is maximized but still keept as light as possible. Maybe a good starting point is a light build similar to this:

Dash + Trick shot + Saw crew (104pt)

Jan Ors + Moldy Crow (59pt)

Jake/Arvel + Crack shot (37pt/35pt)

total: 200pt/198pt ( https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z39X133WWW58WWWY46XWWWWW156Y51X116WW&sn=My only hope&obs= )

Dash target locks then he has Saw crew to turn eyes into crits, which together with Jan is 5-6 double modded red dice. Not as potent as Deathray Dash but still quite powerfull. Jan also locks in the turn she engages which together with Moldy Crow (and a buildup of focus) also giving her access to 3-4 double modded red dice, and finally Jake+crack is always a solid ship for the points. Could be Arvel instead, but more tricky to time and coordinate the perfect block while Jan and Dash attacks, but if pulled off....then Dash will hit like a ton of bricks (and so will Jan and Arvel) touching the power level of old Deathray Dash.

Obviously, target priority is Jan Ors but the list does not fall apart when she dies, and in the mean time Dash and Jake/Arvel has free reign. Should the rookie opponent go for Jake/Arvel instead then they will never catch him and loose a lot of hitpoints during that chase. Going for Dash is also the mistake as Dash can take a beating and will return in kind and giving more time for Jan to boost Jake/Arvels attack.

Unsure if you can kill enough Vultures per turn when facing a Sep swarm before you burn out, and perhaps restistance I5s with also play you like a fiddle, but this I my best bet... my only hope

21 hours ago, BenDay said:

But Bistan does not help you concentrate your fire. I have never used the card is it really useful?

Bistan let's you take a second shot at a different target so long as you have a Focus, hence Perceptive Co-Pilot. It isn't great, it probably isn't good, but it does let Dash get a few more 4 dice attacks in before he inevitably gets taken off the board.

I found that it works the best out of the set ups that I've tried so far as me trying to earn Dash's points back. It's still not good, but balancing the YT-2400 is never going to be easy with the numbers printed on the card and Dash's ability.

The YT-2400 (and a stand-alone secondhand YT-2400 conversion kit) was the first rebel ship I bought, because I believed in the four-dice turret. It’s also the one of the only rebel ships I have, along with two x wings, so I play with it a lot.

I’ve found that Dash suffers from initiative because it’s way too easy to block him. Blocking Dash locks him out of Perceptive Copilot and a rotate. Also, it’s not as bad to have the three-dice only close range shot as long as you have some sort of fighter escort.

Dash, honestly, isn’t as good as the Wild Space Fringer when you factor in cost with unblockability, and even in a crowded asteroid field it’s fairly easy to maneuver without using Dash’s ability.

This is my current list: {199}

Wild Space Fringer (77) {85}

-Perceptive Copilot (8)

Luke Skywalker (62) {64}

-R4 Astromech (2)

Thane Kyrell (48) {50}

-R4 Astromech (2)

I had fun on casual night with Leebo, Dutch, and Wedge.

4 hours ago, Burius1981 said:

Bistan let's you take a second shot at a different target so long as you have a Focus, hence Perceptive Co-Pilot. It isn't great, it probably isn't good, but it does let Dash get a few more 4 dice attacks in before he inevitably gets taken off the board.

I found that it works the best out of the set ups that I've tried so far as me trying to earn Dash's points back. It's still not good, but balancing the YT-2400 is never going to be easy with the numbers printed on the card and Dash's ability.

If it's a choice between a good barrel roll, or a bad Bistan, it's Barrel Roll every time. But Bistan is still really easy. There's often going to be multiple things in arc, and being able to lay out multiple attacks is very useful.

I feel like part of the secret to Bistan is to mentally prepare for the first attack be a throw-away. It's a chance at a 4-hit highroll. Like, any list has to know it's outs, and one of Dash's outs is just to get some filthy highrolls.

Not that I won't ever use my Lone Wolf or Kanan on it, but if it blanks, it blanks.

1 hour ago, Target_2.0 said:

I had fun on casual night with Leebo, Dutch, and Wedge.

This. Dash--and the YT-2400 more broadly--doesn't represent a great list for tournament play. But it's a ship good enough to have fun with outside tournaments.

12 hours ago, Frimmel said:

So we're here saying that part of the issue with the YT2400 and VCX is the four dice attack and your solution is to make it three and make some other faction's ship four dice while still allowing it the range one bonus? A ship that could potentially perform a re-position and the start and then two re-positions (with afterburners) and its maneuver in a turn at I5?

There's a reason I don't listen to anyone here about game design.

Or pretty much anywhere, ever.

On 3/11/2020 at 3:37 PM, Frimmel said:

I think this is the thing. It is the same as the VCX. It is sort of "broken or nothing" with them. Those ships are paying for their sins in first edition. I think though theses ships suggest that 2nd Edition isn't a new edition so much as a very quick and superficial coat of paint over first.

haha, careful now. you imply 2nd edition isnt perfect and the knives come out.

But in all seriousness this is a common wargame design issue. Elite units are the only units worth taking unless theyre too expensive, then theyre worthless. you see it in every turn based game unless there are a lot of units per a squad/list where people can mix squads. You cant balance turn based squad building mechanics and dice to be fair for competition like chess or symetrical games, So its just about fun.

To wit Dash is Fun, so therefore he is good

4 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

haha, careful now. you imply 2nd edition isnt perfect and the knives come out.

But in all seriousness this is a common wargame design issue. Elite units are the only units worth taking unless theyre too expensive, then theyre worthless. you see it in every turn based game unless there are a lot of units per a squad/list where people can mix squads. You cant balance turn based squad building mechanics and dice to be fair for competition like chess or symetrical games, So its just about fun.

To wit Dash is Fun, so therefore he is good

I think Dash and Ghost are where they didn't go enough for "fun" in that philosophy. These ships seem to want to be all of your list but they didn't go ahead and allow them to be all of your list and balance them around that. I'm suggesting the only option for putting a YT-2400 or VCX on the table is full on thematic loadout with that ship on its own then they might be both fun and competitive.

For example I think that Hera pilot should also have Hera crew ability. But you can't allow that ship to take Nien Nunb or other reduce difficulty of a maneuver effects. Leebo pilot ability should be a crew but probably only for Dash.

And they don't seem to want to make the unique version of a chassis really differentiated from a generic version. Han and Chewie in the Falcon really a different ship beyond initiative and pilot ability from an Outer Rim Smuggler. Most of the hero freighters would probably benefit from that sort of thing.

This is my best shot, tho not strictly Dash....

I find this very interesting. I mean I don't think WSF would even be the first target bizarrely enough.

Just throwing 4 reds with a focus into the fight.... Circling around the fight.

(77) Wild Space Fringer [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
Points: 77

(62) Luke Skywalker [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
(4) Foresight
Points: 66

(55) Wedge Antilles [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
(2) Predator
Points: 57

Total points: 200

🤷‍♂️

Seems like Dash should be a bit cheaper and title a bit more expensive alongside that change. Keeps the absolute best version fairly expensive, but allow Dash to be used with tools outside of the title somewhat more competitively.

Or just keep him forever in casual games only.

Here's a thought. I used to play the ef out of dash in 1.o, but haven't had much luck with him now. The best thing they did was get rid of the nonsense dancing dash aspect. So you kinda have to go back to being just a good fun gun. So like this is one I had. Gets you locks and a Droid version of perceptive copilot.

What am I even doing? (199/200)
==============================
YT-2400: "Leebo" (81 + 2)
+ Contraband Cybernetics (2)
HWK-290: Jan Ors (41 + 30)
+ Swarm Tactics (4)
+ K-2SO (8)
+ Moldy Crow (18)
Y-wing: "Dutch" Vander (40 + 5)
+ Ion Cannon Turret (5)