See title. Personally, I think he's still far too expensive, especially if you want the title (105 points in total!). He offers a lot of potential, but I'd still take Han or Lando any day for the versatility that they offer at a cheaper cost to make them tick.

Yes, honestly, I think he needs to be same base cost as Han.

And that Title ... 14 points is insane for Outrider.

That four-dice turret primary, though. Paired with the pilot ability, AND the title, AND Trick Shot. Makes the bastard extremely difficult to balance with points. Sure, he can melt, especially due to the lack of points for effective wingmates. But give him just the tiniest bit of good dice-variance, and he's an NPE monster. All the complaints about CIS and Scum ignoring fundamental game mechanics? Yeah, add amazing support crew and a four-dice turret primary. Dash is...problematic. At best.

edit: I've not played Dash. I don't own nor do I want to own that ship. I have played against Dash a handful of times. Twice with Miranda as his wingmate, and a couple times with either an Auzituck or a T-65 of various stripes. And twice in Epic Scenario games (Ionized Dash is very, very sad.). No exact recollection, but I think I'm above a 50% win rate. BUT. In the two games against DashRanda, my opponent flew spectacularly poorly, leading to Dash going down in just two rounds of firing. You can't just yolo him into a swarm, right? In THOSE games, yeah, he felt overpriced. But in the two or three games that I've lost to him, he was a monster, one-shotting Scyks left and right. So. Problematic for balancing.

26 minutes ago, mcintma said:

And that Title ... 14 points is insane for Outrider.

An upgrade that allow you to both fly over obstacles without repercussions and also to shed negative tokens should have an insane price.

The game is actively worse if Outrider title is good.

I'm mixed.

I've had some fun games as Dash with Lone Wolf and Kanan Jarrus. Kanan allows Dash to leverage both his large-base barrel roll and great white moves. I think that's absolutely the most important thing to do with him (so Kanan or Expert Handling). I've typically carried Bistan, to crank more damage when given the opportunity, but I see Bistan as nice rather than necessary.

As to downsides, I feel like Dash gets owned *hard* when he's got enemies moving after him. Getting arc-dodged, or even folks just sliding into Range 1, is really punishing on Dash, due to his high cost and relatively low toughness. At Init 5, he'll always have a pretty big weakness in that regard.

Also... I kinda think the title is a trap. Flying over obstacles isn't a practical means of dealing with stress, in my experience. Meanwhile, Outmaneuver isn't worth 14 points. Now, I don't necessarily think that means the title should come down a tonne (see below), but just that folks will probably do better if they stop building around it.

11 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

That four-dice turret primary, though.

[G]ive him just the tiniest bit of good dice-variance, and he's an NPE monster.

But mostly this.

I don't want an X-Wing Metagame where Dash is very good. Right now, I think he's more casual-night-playable than folks give him credit for (although Han and Leia and Lando are better). Maybe he could withstand a small tappa tappa of a buff, but four dice turret that ignores obstacles... probably should be at least a little bad.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

An upgrade that allow you to both fly over obstacles without repercussions and also to shed negative tokens should have an insane price.

The game is actively worse if Outrider title is good.

Don't forget negating the defensive bonus...

46 minutes ago, mcintma said:

And that Title ... 14 points is insane for Outrider.

you are correct. 14 points is insanely LOW.

I've been having some thoughts recently, so I am going to share them here. How come RoarkDash disappeared completely after the rules change? Yes I know no more double taps and that was the entire gimmick BUT it went from winning a major tournament a week before it was banned to never ever being played again. Why?

Like currently you can do:

New Squadron

(91) Dash Rendar [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(14) Bistan
(4) Trick Shot
(14) Outrider
Points: 131

(34) Kyle Katarn [HWK-290 Light Freighter]
(6) Tactical Officer
(18) Moldy Crow

(8) Squad Leader

Points: 58

Total points: 197

Compared to DashRoark the only difference is that you are not allowed to shoot at the same target twice and you need to have a focus for the second attack. On the other hand you have a larger bid than before, pretty much ensuring you move last unless they are BobbaFenn. EDIT: NEVERMIND I FORGOT TO ADD SQUAD LEADER TO LIST. ME IDIOT. ME BAD. BUT LEAVING IT HERE FOR GENERAL DISCUSSION.

Furthermore release of clouds could be interesting because Dash ignores them completely like Debris but could also get a defensive bonus while removing the opponents. Finally rising ship counts means Bistan should be able to trigger more easily.

I am not saying it's a competitive list. Its not. But is it really a "never once happened on Metawing" level of list?

Dash is extremely well balanced. He is expensive, but at the same time extremely versatile in what he can do. It is a 10 HP Artillery piece, that struggles when ships get up close and personal. With the pilot ability and Title, it is also extremely good at avoiding fire and stripping mods from enemy ships. If you fly through an obstacle, you can remove a Target Lock the enemy has on you, as an example. Pair him up with a good CQB bully, that will keep Dash save and you have an extremely deadly duo.

• Dash Rendar: "Outrider" title, Bistan, Perceptive Copilot, Trick Shot (131 total)
• Norra Wexley: Veteran Tail Gunner, "Zeb" Orrelios, Indimitation, Ion Torpedoes (69 total)

3 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

I've been having some thoughts recently, so I am going to share them here. How come RoarkDash disappeared completely after the rules change? Yes I know no more double taps and that was the entire gimmick BUT it went from winning a major tournament a week before it was banned to never ever being played again. Why?

Like currently you can do:

New Squadron

(91) Dash Rendar [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(14) Bistan
(4) Trick Shot
(14) Outrider
Points: 131

(34) Kyle Katarn [HWK-290 Light Freighter]
(6) Tactical Officer
(18) Moldy Crow
Points: 58

Total points: 189

Compared to DashRoark the only difference is that you are not allowed to shoot at the same target twice and you need to have a focus for the second attack. On the other hand you have a larger bid than before, pretty much ensuring you move last unless they are BobbaFenn.

Furthermore release of clouds could be interesting because Dash ignores them completely like Debris but could also get a defensive bonus while removing the opponents. Finally rising ship counts means Bistan should be able to trigger more easily.

I am not saying it's a competitive list. Its not. But is it really a "never once happened on Metawing" level of list?

To me, it seems that one of Dash's big weaknesses is higher initiative ships than him. Init 7 double taps contributed greatly towards winning those matchups, in a way that Init 5 split Bistan attacks... really doesn't.

While Dash/Kyle works mostly the same against non-aces, making one particular (and fairly likely) matchup significantly worse really does bad things for a list.

But, to be sure, a lot of it is just animal spirits. Folks don't build lists based on exactly how good or bad things are.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

To me, it seems that one of Dash's big weaknesses is higher initiative ships than him. Init 7 double taps contributed greatly towards winning those matchups, in a way that Init 5 split Bistan attacks... really doesn't.

While Dash/Kyle works mostly the same against non-aces, making one particular (and fairly likely) matchup significantly worse really does bad things for a list.

But, to be sure, a lot of it is just animal spirits. Folks don't build lists based on exactly how good or bad things are.

Yeah I'm not saying it some kind of hidden Gem. But it doesn't feel like an F tier list.

Or going like this and getting to throw around 6 dice attacks and actually having a bid now and both being I5. Just hug a sideline and circle the board.

New Squadron

(91) Dash Rendar [YT-2400 Light Freighter]
(8) Perceptive Copilot
(14) Bistan
(4) Trick Shot
(14) Outrider
Points: 131

(41) Jan Ors [HWK-290 Light Freighter]
(6) Tactical Officer
(12) Squad Leader
Points: 59

Total points: 190

Are we saying that Dash needs bistan or some form of double tap to be usable?

You can fit Dash with Wedge and Jake, you can choose between bistan or outrider. Jake is a good source for Dash to get mods, maybe lando crew for a evade and 2 crackshots or exp handling.

When did he join the Imperials?

Aaaaaaand I'll show myself out.

53 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Are we saying that Dash needs bistan or some form of double tap to be usable?

Here's my take: large ships in 2-ship need offensive consistency. Han succeeds since he can reliably put out shots that get a reasonable amount of hits through due to his ability+whatever mods you throw on him (saw, Luke's force, etc.). Double taps help to mitigate that, but they are steeply priced, and correctly so in the case of Bistan: he can pump out a lot of damage to improve consistency. The issue that I see with him on Dash is that Dash is already too expensive and I would always rather have Han or Lando in his place for a cheaper but exponentially more consistent build.

Any large base 80pt+ ship needs shenanigans imo. Dash pays just a bit too much for too little.

But also this.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I don't want an X-Wing Metagame where Dash is very good. Right now, I think he's more casual-night-playable than folks give him credit for (although Han and Leia and Lando are better). Maybe he could withstand a small tappa tappa of a buff, but four dice turret that ignores obstacles... probably should be at least a little bad.

His full panoply of shenanigans are somewhat oppressive.

However, Dash lists are always light on numbers, so most opposing lists have little fear of yoloing into R1 and dunking him. It's hard for him to trade his points effectively, or quickly enough, hence Roark etc being the goto.

But casually, cheaply, he's almost viable and can be pretty fun. PerCo, Lone Wolf is a good semi-budget combo. I'm not keen on the title, I think it's adds not enough for a huge hike on his cost. But his blues are bad, blocking a cheap Dash is not rocket science, so it likely adds something there.

I've played against him a few times recently, coincidentally, 3 different opponents. One had Miranda, for giggles, the other 2 had an HWK in there- Kyle and Jan. Unfortunately for all 3, Assaj, Latts, Unkar just eats 2 ship lists, so I couldn't really judge it... But he sure does melt fast with no defensive boost.

Cassian crew was an interesting tweak in the Kyle list. It helped avoid the block and earned an extra turn of shooting, as well as setting up a better trajectory.

Personally, I think he may need very distracting, or squirrelly mates, the HWK didn't seem to offer enough flexibility to keep me guessing and hedging my bets, or punish my decisions. So just rush him when he's near a corner... then booms.

SuperTorp Luke was a good wingman. He can offer such strong bait/punishment that Dash is able to hang out and either take advantage or just squeee to the hills, while throwing all his dice. Offering a bad either/or choice strikes me as a better option than hanging everything on a very big Dash.

There are a few problems with Dash in 2.0.

1. Cost. He just costs to much to be paired with many effective ships.

2. Red barrel rolls. 1.0 Dash had white barrel rolls which allowed him to keep stress free for longer. In my opinion you must have expert handling on him in 2.0 in order to keep him open to coordination for more action economy.

3. 1 less shield. Yes he received one more hull to compensate but in 2.0 crits can be much more devastating to large base ships.

There are very few wingmen that match well with Dash. The best one I've found so far is Lando in the YT-1300.

Dash Rendar (91)
Expert Handling (4)
Perceptive Copilot (8)
Shield Upgrade (6)

Ship total: 109 Half Points: 55 Threshold: 6

Lando Calrissian (79)
Nien Nunb (5)
Jyn Erso (2)
Shield Upgrade (4)

Ship total: 90 Half Points: 45 Threshold: 7


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z39X120WWW54W165WWY43XWWW52W40WW165W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Lando is the key to keeping Dash alive longer. You should always try to coordinate Dash using Lando's ability. At least during times where you know Dash is going to be focused down. Dash having a white barrel roll plus 2 focus tokens with perceptive co-pilot lets him keep mobile, dodge some arcs and still have both offensive and defensive mods. And having Jyn crew on Lando lets both ships take an evade when needed. Sure its only 2 ships worth of firepower. But that's still 7 red dice coming at you.

Separate the title from the discussion for a sec....

Han just does everything better. Lando nearly so. The slight! benefit of swapping range 1 for range 3 is just not worth the points.

Great thread, made me want to revisit my old buddy dash. This will be my next squad.

Z-95-AF4 Headhunter - •Airen Cracken - 36
•Airen Cracken - Intelligence Chief (36)

YT-2400 Light Freighter - •Dash Rendar - 109
•Dash Rendar - Hotshot Mercenary (91)
Trick Shot (4)
• Outrider (14)

Z-95-AF4 Headhunter - Tala Squadron Pilot - 25
Tala Squadron Pilot - (24)
Crack Shot (1)

Z-95-AF4 Headhunter - •Lieutenant Blount - 30
•Lieutenant Blount - Team Player (30)

Total: 200/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

Dash is the squad and the Zs hang out around him as support. Take the three biggest obstacles

4 hours ago, Kleeg005 said:

That four-dice turret primary, though. Paired with the pilot ability, AND the title, AND Trick Shot. Makes the bastard extremely difficult to balance with points. Sure, he can melt, especially due to the lack of points for effective wingmates. But give him just the tiniest bit of good dice-variance, and he's an NPE monster. All the complaints about CIS and Scum ignoring fundamental game mechanics? Yeah, add amazing support crew and a four-dice turret primary. Dash is...problematic. At best.

I think this is the thing. It is the same as the VCX. It is sort of "broken or nothing" with them. Those ships are paying for their sins in first edition. I think though theses ships suggest that 2nd Edition isn't a new edition so much as a very quick and superficial coat of paint over first.

the cheapest/best set up I've seen for Dash would be Expert Handling, Perceptive Copilot, and Bistan. The double tap that Bistan provides helps Dash to earn his points sooner and/or mitigate unlucky rolls with additional attacks. Still tough to fit half decent wingmen in with him.

But Bistan does not help you concentrate your fire. I have never used the card is it really useful?

35 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I think this is the thing. It is the same as the VCX. It is sort of "broken or nothing" with them. Those ships are paying for their sins in first edition. I think though theses ships suggest that 2nd Edition isn't a new edition so much as a very quick and superficial coat of paint over first.

I think, rather, it's the four-dice primary that should never, ever, ever, have been allowed. These ships aren't paying for any 1st Ed. sins - that's the Jumpmaster. They *are* paying for that four-dice primary, amazing pilot abilities, and excellent dials. The Upsilon does so, too, to a lesser extent, although most of their pilot abilities aren't quite as fantastically strong and it doesn't have access to a turret to further ramp up the amaze-balls.

6 minutes ago, BenDay said:

But Bistan does not help you concentrate your fire. I have never used the card is it really useful?

Not really no, for the reason you just wrote out. Also requires you to save a focus, so you're either not using 1 on defense or shooting an unmodded shot.

Might account for why people think Dash is 'terrible'.

I feel like the potential for a 5 dice double mod turret is too much for dash to be bad. I think he just hasn’t been unlocked yet.