I mean, new player.... getting his hands on 4 Phantoms is probably not going to instantly propel him to Worlds.....

That whole angle doesn't hold a lot of water for me, given we're a community. The FLGS the new player finds is likely home to a squadron with a near infinite supply of loan ships and secondary markets exist. (Do you even FB, bro?)

If not, good luck learning to compete on your own...

Regardless of tourney formats, new players need help and support from a local group, if they have that, they need for nothing. If they don't, well, entry barriers will be very steep, whatever FFG OP does.

This question is absurdly simple. Do you want Worlds to be an X Wing party where everything is awesome? Or the top of the pops premier competitive event, where wombo-combo match up luck is reduced to tolerable levels?

Both are equally valid viewpoints, so on with the popularity contest!

Cross-posting from the endless dumpster fire thread:

So, the path forward for Hyperspace could be:

1. Keep the pool of ships/pilots/upgrades roughly the same by rotating in and out at approximately the same rate.
   • HS remains a smaller, intentionally limited, rotating format. HS and Extended exist side-by-side forever.
2. Gradually grow the pool by adding more ships and only removing "problem" pieces. (I'm looking at you Advanced Sensors)
   • HS eventually becomes the standard competitive format as most pilots/upgrades and all chassis are eventually added.

Which one do I prefer? Why not both?

• Jan-June is crazy town. Hyperspace is a new, limited selection of options with most of the meta-staples removed. Events are either goofy-new hyperspace or wild-west extended.
• July-December is serious. HS becomes a mostly complete format but with a "ban-list." All major events (including Worlds) are hyperspace.

That's my preferred method for 2021 and beyond.

On 3/10/2020 at 6:25 AM, LUZ_TAK said:

I do care that my entire ship collection is kept relevant

Spoiler alert: even in extended, a good chunk of your collection is not relevant.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Personally I'd prefer to see Worlds be an exhibition of absolutely EVERYTHING X-Wing: The Miniatures Game has to offer - past, present and future.

Well, then, Epic is finally going to be the Worlds format. Nice.

That would be worth watching.

1 hour ago, miguelj said:

Telling a player who never played or collected 1.0 product that they need to find out of print ships to be competitive in extended feels far more exclusionary to me.

They don't, though. Far from it.

They can quite easily go with 2nd edition only releases and be VERY competitive.

In fact, there's an incredibly large amount of non-Hyperspace legal 2nd edition only content they can use, and Extended events are currently their only opportunity to do so.

I think the people complaining about 1st edition content being hard to get hold of aren't being 100% fair either; Gunboats are expensive on the secondary market, sure (they have been since 1st edition actually, so this isn't in any way tied to Extended), but they're difficult to fly effectively and are by any measure sub optimal choices.

33 minutes ago, Timathius said:

I see someone has not looked at rebel's new points....

He's gonna need a pretty significant drop to both Dash and Outrider before I ever consider him before Lando or Han, except for in my meme-y Dash/Lando list.

1 minute ago, Npmartian said:

He's gonna need a pretty significant drop to both Dash and Outrider before I ever consider him before Lando or Han, except for in my meme-y Dash/Lando list.

I think he is tied for the largest points drop in the last points update.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Then it would keep growing. But a restricted format makes for a better format (balancing/playability, relative diversity, relevance of skill).

Reading folks’ replies here is helping me clarify my position.
I don’t comb the data, but my impression from these boards is that Extended sees a wider swath of lists and styles in the meta than in 1.0. I think that FFGs energies should be focused on ensuring that environment is balanced and healthy. Banning ships in HS does not fix them in Ext. If the big events are HS, FFG will not pay as much attn to Ext and attend to issues there.

2 minutes ago, Timathius said:

I think he is tied for the largest points drop in the last points update.

Still, 91 points and 14 on the title? That's just too much for not enough. Still, let's take this discussion elsewhere-I'll make a thread about it so as not to derail the hyperspace meme train.

2 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

If the big events are HS, FFG will not pay as much attn to Ext and attend to issues there.

why?

25 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I mean, new player.... getting his hands on 4 Phantoms is probably not going to instantly propel him to Worlds.....

That whole angle doesn't hold a lot of water for me, given we're a community.

Agreed. It's more of an excuse than a fact.

26 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

This question is absurdly simple. Do you want Worlds to be an X Wing party where everything is awesome? Or the top of the pops premier competitive event, where wombo-combo match up luck is reduced to tolerable levels?

It's so absurdly simple it's not actually even a question, and there's no need for the popularity contest in the first place:

FFG has not one, but TWO marquee events: Worlds and Coruscant.

Worlds (as the finale of the Prime/Grand/Continental season) is currently Extended; Coruscant (as the finale of the System Open season) is currently Hyperspace.

Both formats have their big finale to the X-Wing year.

Now, as I argued earlier, from my point of view Worlds tends to be (and should be) a celebration of X-Wing in it's entirety - with Epic (albeit without Huge ships), Aces High and more all featured in 2019's event in Minnesota.

Coruscant - as an invitational event - on the other hand has tended to be a bit more exclusive, with a select few making the cut for the competition. If the competition there is carefully curated, then it makes sense that it uses the carefully curated ruleset as well.

Well, at least FFG seem to think so, anyway!

34 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Gradually grow the pool by adding more ships and only removing "problem" pieces. (I'm looking at you Advanced Sensors)

• HS eventually becomes the standard competitive format as most pilots/upgrades and all chassis are eventually added

Why remove problems when a huge part of 2.0 was the fact they engineered a method to adjust points ongoing?

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

why?

Design and playtest staff have a limited supply of energy, hours, etc and much of that will be applied to new product. In that environment, why spend resources working on something that is currently “banned.”

1 minute ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Design and playtest staff have a limited supply of energy, hours, etc and much of that will be applied to new product. In that environment, why spend resources working on something that is currently “banned.”

extended is not banned, and won't be banned just because worlds is hyperspace.

It would make more sense for the events run in FLGS (SCs and Regionals) and the events they feed into (Grands and Worlds) to be Hyperspace. It's a much more accessible format to newer players and actually supports the FLGS because all ships in rotation can be bought off the shelf.

SOS should be extended because those events are run outside of the FLGS and appeal more to the "invested" player who has extended stuff available.

9 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

Why remove problems when a huge part of 2.0 was the fact they engineered a method to adjust points ongoing?

Because some things are highly resistant to fixing via points updates. I guess you can just price them into nigh unplayability like Luke Gunner but it's a tricky business.

13 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Because some things are highly resistant to fixing via points updates. I guess you can just price them into nigh unplayability like Luke Gunner but it's a tricky business.

...so what you're saying is Luke Gunner needs a price reduction. 🤔

9 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Because some things are highly resistant to fixing via points updates. I guess you can just price them into nigh unplayability like Luke Gunner but it's a tricky business.

I agree that it is a process fraught with difficulties, but it seems to be the right work to do.

30 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...so what you're saying is Luke Gunner needs a price reduction. 🤔

So long as he isn't hyperspace legal... sure?

The question is if Worlds and the events that lead to it should be more focused on hyperspace format.

I think they should be. Worlds cant be both formats. New Players can't magically find reasonably priced Gunboats on Amazon. Thats not actually possible.

There is a correct choice here and its not extended. Hyperspace is better and more flexible for the long term health of the competitive game.

Its important that the playerbase who agrees with this continues to be vocal.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, then, Epic is finally going to be the Worlds format. Nice.

That would be worth watching.

It would of the games weren't so long.

5 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

So long as he isn't hyperspace legal... sure?

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

New Players can't magically find reasonably priced Gunboats on Amazon. Thats not actually possible.

Again, they don't need to. That's a fallacy, and attempting to use it as an excuse renders your entire argument redundant.

But let's face it, you don't really care about the new players anyway, do you? You're only interested in your own selfish view of "what's best for the game.".

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

FFG has not one, but TWO marquee events: Worlds and Coruscant.

Worlds (as the finale of the Prime/Grand/Continental season) is currently Extended; Coruscant (as the finale of the System Open season) is currently Hyperspace.

Both formats have their big finale to the X-Wing year.

Now, as I argued earlier, from my point of view Worlds tends to be (and should be) a celebration of X-Wing in it's entirety - with Epic (albeit without Huge ships), Aces High and more all featured in 2019's event in Minnesota.

Coruscant - as an invitational event - on the other hand has tended to be a bit more exclusive, with a select few making the cut for the competition. If the competition there is carefully curated, then it makes sense that it uses the carefully curated ruleset as well.

My only problem with this is that Coruscant has so far been the silly tournament. "Lets make one upgrade free for each faction!"

27 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

There is a correct choice here and its not extended. Hyperspace is better and more flexible for the long term health of the competitive game.

Extended, long term, cannot be both a balanced format and a vibrant format.

• If it's long-term balanced, if all the ships are fairly priced, the same cream will always rise to the top.
  • Some archetypes are just more popular than others regardless of precise power level. Over time, this will lead to a mostly dull format. There will always be folks who make a good run with something unexpected, but a large chunk will surely be the same as it ever was.
• To achieve long-run vibrancy, this will require nerfs and buffs that throw balance out of whack, in order to create a new metagame.
  • Fair-but-popular stuff will need nerfs, to discourage play.
  • Fair-but-unpopular stuff will need to be deliberately underpriced in order to be encouraged.

Hyperspace has potential to be both long-term balanced, and vibrant.

• Balanced ships which are too popular can be moved out of the format.
• Balanced ships which aren't very popular can be moved in, and this will probably lead to experimentation, since other options aren't there.
• Highly skewed "win in list building" mechanics can potentially be minimized, so that more games are decided on the table, rather than by matchup luck.

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

But let's face it, you don't really care about the new players anyway, do you? You're only interested in your own selfish view of "what's best for the game.".

look dude this place is usually a dumpster fire so I don't generally vibe check the forums but this is like, seriously taking it too far. Boom Owl owns a lot of ships and has done well competitively in plenty of extended events so I'm seriously struggling to see how arguing vehemently for hyperspace is "selfish"