34 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think unplayable is kind of extreme. We've seen enough already in Extended that pretty much all the rough edges from release prices have been mostly smoothed off. I feel the "aces should cost more" argument has merit, but FFG doesn't seem to agree. FFG seems pretty satisfied with the balance of aces at current prices.

There will always be interactions with new ships and new upgrades, but I think Extended is a mostly balanced format already, and unlikely to have massive shifts going forwards. It might not be 100% correct, but certainly playable.

I would agree it’s in a good place right now, but that’s because they’ve bothered to keep it balanced and in check. Let’s talk after a few point updates without any changes or care in extended. I guarantee it’ll be a mess without constant verification.

Just as a thought experiment: What does it look like if FFG ran a hangar bay event where each player brings one Hyperspace list and one Extended list and chooses one to fly each round? What two lists do you bring? Can you build a Hyperspace-legal list that can counter the meta staples in Extended? Are there any circumstances where a player chooses to fly their Hyperspace list?

14 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Rounds 1, 3, 5 and 7 should be Hyperspace. Rounds 2, 4, and 6 should be Extended. You must run a different faction each round.

Not interested in carrying 7 lists with me to Worlds or buying into all 7 factions but, boy howdy, do I like the spirit of your suggestion.

***Tangent***I would love to see some sort of X-Wing Decathlon where each player competes with Trip Aces, Swarm, Beef, Jank, Ace+Mini-Swarm, Double Aces, etc. I understand that reading the meta and making your list are part of the game. I even recognize that for some people, that is their favorite part of the game. Personally, I just like flying and shooting. If I enjoyed engine building, card interactions, and building to counter a meta I'd be playing Magic.***Tangent***

All that to say, I want Worlds to be whichever format allows the most list diversity. No way to judge objectively right now which format that is... ?

I think it would be fun to alternate formats each year. And the 2nd day qualifier event should be whatever the main event isn't.

41 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I guarantee it’ll be a mess without constant verification.

We assume but don't actually know how much or if at all FFG uses tournament results.

Do you suggest they use listfortress, atc, metawing and so on?

Extended, if we cant use all of our ships, why should we buy them!

3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

I would agree it’s in a good place right now, but that’s because they’ve bothered to keep it balanced and in check. Let’s talk after a few point updates without any changes or care in extended. I guarantee it’ll be a mess without constant verification.

Is it though? I really don't think it will be.

New talents might alter how Soontir Fel gets built, or new crew for the Lambda, or new missiles or cannons for Starwings. But it probably won't take massive amounts of verification from tournament results to prevent broken combos.

Overall, there are enough ace ships with talent slots, enough crew carriers, and enough missile and cannon platforms that flaws in new upgrades can be seen on other platforms, and be addressed. Between analogous ships and theorycrafting, that'll be able to identify most real problems.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

We assume but don't actually know how much or if at all FFG uses tournament results.

This too.

9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I respect your honesty.

Boom Owl, can you PLEASE drop the whole Hyperspace Worlds thing? It feels very exclusionary.

As someone who's been playing a lot of HS list vs Extended lists, the cool thing I found that HS did was that a LOT of HS lists are completely the same power level as Extended. In fact, my current unbeatable list is a HS list that I can't seem to beat with nearly anything extended. All you have to do with your HS list is tweak it with some additional toys to play in extended.

You can't do this from extended to HS. and we would like to play with our other toys thanks. That's what I'm interested in right now.

So, please, DROP IT!

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

So, please, DROP IT!

No

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I think unplayable is kind of extreme. We've seen enough already in Extended that pretty much all the rough edges from release prices have been mostly smoothed off. I feel the "aces should cost more" argument has merit, but FFG doesn't seem to agree. FFG seems pretty satisfied with the balance of aces at current prices.

There will always be interactions with new ships and new upgrades, but I think Extended is a mostly balanced format already, and unlikely to have massive shifts going forwards. It might not be 100% correct, but certainly playable.

20 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

If Worlds is to be a celebration of all things X-Wing, then it has to be extended IMHO.

Are there oppresive builds or combos in extended? Deal with those and improve the game overall.

8 hours ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

How about FFG just uses the built-in balancing mechanism (points) to tweak things and let us play with all of our toys?

Hyperspace would have seemed totally appropriate in the 1.0 environment, but 2.0 is built on the premise of ongoing balancing which makes Hyperspace limits seem arbitrary and lazy to me.

22 hours ago, Shenannigan said:

t depends on what’s hyperspace legal.

12 hours ago, LUZ_TAK said:

Why does Hyperspace need to be the choice for Worlds to have sense as a competitive format? People are having fun with it now even knowing Worlds will be Extended.

I personally couldn't care less what the tournament scene looks like; I do care that my entire ship collection is kept relevant, balanced and updated, and not in a "silly purely casual" way. Worlds being extended is a big way to ensure that.

On 3/9/2020 at 2:47 PM, ScummyRebel said:

No - this is the time to pull out all the stops and have an amazing time seeing all the cool toys and not just the same handful. Worlds 2019 had every ship but 4 (?) Somewhere out on a table.

to whom is hyperspace exclusionary?

I don't know a single player who cannot possibly build a hyperspace legal list

40 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

to whom is hyperspace exclusionary?

I don't know a single player who cannot possibly build a hyperspace legal list

By the same token you don't know a single player who cannot possibly build an extended legal list 😂

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

No

I see someone here is very set on having their own way, every time, all the time..

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

By the same token you don't know a single player who cannot possibly build an extended legal list 😂

I mean, any Hyperspace list is Extended.

But there's a lot of stuff important for the Extended competitive scene which is out-of-print and sometimes hard to find. TIE Phantoms, Lambda Shuttles, HWKs, Kihraxz, Kimogilas, Starvipers. That's just the stuff which was fairly important in the Worlds 2019 meta, that you'll have to hunt around for. Sometimes it'll be easy on Amazon, but not always. Alpha Class Starwing seem like they've gone up to like $65 on eBay; more than four times their original MSRP.

Now, I'm completely fine with this all if we're talking small kit tourneys at the FLGS (if there's a small kit tourney ath the FLGS each month, my preference would be to swap back and forth between Hyperspace and Extended) , but when it comes to the large events... I'm less OK with that.

If we're talking about Worlds being the most important event, I'd prefer it if the lists can be built with what we all have access to at the FLGS.

Worlds should be hyperspace.

If extended was properly balanced hyperspace would not need to solely rely on being the competitive format.

the problem I have:

if you were to switch, the problem remains is that Worlds happens in May, which is super late into the format. so to make worlds hyperspace format would basically make it a boring spectacle, outside our X-wing “celebrities” going head to head again, we’d play and watch a solved format (this is the problem with 1st edition worlds events).

Were we to get a points update/hyperspace adjustment in mid April, or even just a tweak on the current format to shake up the current dominators, I would be more comfortable with worlds not boiling down to who brought X list.

While I do agree that worlds should be a cumulation of all ships in the game, if said ships are not available from ffg, it does not provide a fair playing field. All may be fair in love and war, but this is a minis game. So for now, worlds should probably be hyperspace, a necessary evil to level the playing field until FFG figures out how to make reprints make them money (gunboat cough cough).

3 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

so to make worlds hyperspace format would basically make it a boring spectacle, outside our X-wing “celebrities” going head to head again, we’d play and watch a solved format (this is the problem with 1st edition worlds events)

Any soccer, basketball or hockey game is always the same. Obviously that does not make it stale for spectators.

Previous worlds were extended, making the matchup luck and listbuilding way more important. As a result, the solved meta was a thing.

A hyperspace worlds, however, relies way more on the individual skills at the table. And a side effect is that the games are less stale.

11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

If w e're talking about Worlds being the most important event, I'd prefer it if the lists can be built with what we all have access to at the FLGS.

Why? Is Worlds being held at the FLGS?

Or is it going to be a very specific, very dedicated group of players travelling to a very specific, very dedicated location?

And if it's the latter - what does it matter what we all have access to at our friend local gaming stores?

Personally I'd prefer to see Worlds be an exhibition of absolutely EVERYTHING X-Wing: The Miniatures Game has to offer - past, present and future. Gary Oldman in Leon style everything.

If you want to see the pinnacle of a limited, restricted format, then there's Coruscant as well. There's absolutely no need to have both marquee events using the same format.

9 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

If extended was properly balanced hyperspace would not need to solely rely on being the competitive format.

It is. And it doesn't.

That's why most of the upper tier events - Primes, Grands, Continental and, yes, the World Championships are Extended this year.

Meanwhile, for those wanting to play Hyperspace, you've got the Store Championships, System Opens and Coruscant to look forward to and enjoy.

Just like the rest of the game, it all seems very fairly balanced to me and a great template for the game going forward; well done to the powers that be in Organised Play!

9 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

While I do agree that worlds should be a cumulation of all ships in the game, if said ships are not available from ffg, it does not provide a fair playing field. All may be fair in love and war, but this is a minis game. So for now, worlds should probably be hyperspace, a necessary evil to level the playing field until FFG figures out how to make reprints make them money (gunboat cough cough).

If HS was merely a collection of ALL the items rereleased, that would totally make sense.

7 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

If HS was merely a collection of ALL the items rereleased, that would totally make sense.

Then it would keep growing. But a restricted format makes for a better format (balancing/playability, relative diversity, relevance of skill).

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Why? Is World's being held at the FLGS?

Or is it going to be a very specific, very dedicated group of players travelling to a very specific, very dedicated location?

And if it's the latter - what does it matter what we all have access to at our friend local gaming stores?

Personally I'd prefer to see Worlds be an exhibition of absolutely EVERYTHING X-Wing: The Miniatures Game has to offer - past, present and future. Gary Oldman in Leon style everything.

If you want to see the pinnacle of a limited, restricted format, then Coruscant is probably more for you.

If Worlds is held up as the top competition, it sets the tone. I don't want that tone to be "you can't play real X-Wing unless you go out and find out-of-print Phantoms."

I'm all for a big Extended event, if it's billed as a celebration and a massive X-Wing party and look at all the cool stuff. But if Extended is held up as the top competition, the only real competition that matters, I just think that's bad for the game, and undercuts the entire reason for Hyperspace to even exist.

23 minutes ago, Pewpewpew BOOM said:

If HS was merely a collection of ALL the items rereleased, that would totally make sense.

Soontir is the harbinger of death, the canary in the coal mine.

Just an idea, but how about Worlds with everything that was not legal in the last Hyperspace?

Edit: besides generic staples like ties and x wings, of course.

If I had my way both would be playable in some way at high level

Hyperspace

Store Champs

Primes

Grands (could go either way)

Worlds

Extended

System Opens

Coruscant

Continentals

My worry, is that you simply can't find a lot of the competitive ships at this point. If someone starts out right now and wants to do the whole track they arguably can't and be competitive in the OT factions.

A very real scenario right now could be

New player plays in store champ

new player wants to play in prime but cannot buy a YT-2400, Phantom, Gunboat, Attack Shuttle, K-wing, Hwk, Lambda etc. All of which are staples in extended right now. By the same token, if they wanted to go to worlds they can't find those either. It is pretty exclusionary in my view.

14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Boom Owl, can you PLEASE drop the whole Hyperspace Worlds thing? It feels very exclusionary.

Telling a player who never played or collected 1.0 product that they need to find out of print ships to be competitive in extended feels far more exclusionary to me.

6 minutes ago, Timathius said:

new player wants to play in prime but cannot buy a YT-2400 , <stuff> All of which are staples in extended right now

I have several questions.

Just now, Npmartian said:

I have several questions.

I see someone has not looked at rebel's new points....