Hey folks,

first: sorry for my english, Im not a native speaker. I try to explain the problem we discussed during one of our last SoB sessions. The OL just upgraded his Beasts to platin and due to the Count Avatar his razorwings have Leech and ironskin and are quite a problem, especially the master versions. So a core tactic of our group against these flying bastards is to web at least one of them. Thats possible because our Range got Black Widow's Web . And because we're afraid of the OL removing all the webtokens from the webbed Razorwing she's in guard almost all of the time for quick reweb. So thats where the problem(s) occurred.

The OL managed somehow to trap our range without any more MP in a Pit, so she had to guard inside the Pit, wich gave her LoS only to the adjacent spaces. To protect her, a melee with a kockback weapon moved to the space between the pit and the obstacle, also placing the guard order. It looked like this (just imaginary add the two heros):

Now the OL came up with the idea that the flying razorwing couldn't be guarded by the melee if it flys over the obstacle because the hero has no LoS to a space occupied by an obstacle (according to vanilla rules p.10) and therefore cannot attack that space. And because a hero cannot attack the space he's standing in, the next step for the razorwing would be on the space with the hero from where it could attack the range in the pit. Is that true? Because if it is, the melee guarding between the pit and the obstacle is useless.

But there were more controversys : What happens if the guarding range place at least one web token on the razorwing while it is in the same space as the melee hero? The razorwing can no longer spend any MP and he's in the same space with another figure and that is not legal.

Finaly the original plan was kind of an arguer, too. The Melee planed to guard the razorwing on the obstacle or the empty space in the north and knockback it two spaces. The first was supposed to be the empty space north of the melee hero where the razorwing would have been adjacent to the pit at which point the range in the pit triggers her guard and put several web tokens on the razorwing. After that attack the knockback moving would have been continued to the corner in the north, where neither the melee nor the pit would have been in melee range of the (now webbed) razorwing.

I would like some opinions on that, too.

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Edit: some typo

1. The melee hero cannot attack the razorwing when it is in the same space as the rubble or in the same space as the melee hero.
2. The razorwing cannot make an attack when in the same space as the melee hero. Fly lets the razorwing move through spaces it otherwise could not, but it does not remove the restriction that figures "cannot attack while in the same space as another figure."
3. If the ranged hero uses its guard attack to web the razorwing while it is in the same space as the melee hero, I'd say just put the razorwing in the closest legal space. (I don't think this is specifically laid out in the rules, but there's a similar concept in the FAQ where a hero with acrobat opens a door while sharing a space with another figure and is hit by a trap.) Also, note that if the ranged hero attacks the razorwing while it is in the same space as the melee hero, that attack will hit the melee hero, too.
4. When the melee hero makes a guard attack, that attack needs to be completely resolved, including knockback movement, before the ranged hero can use her own guard. Also, just in general, I don't think anything should be able to happen in the middle of knockback movement. Knockback movement happens all at once; the game mechanics don't allow that to be interrupted.
5. If the razorwing is in a space adjacent to both heroes, the ranged hero can make a guard attack first, webbing the razorwing. The melee hero can attack second and knockback the razorwing, even though it is already webbed. A webbed figure cannot spend movement points but can still be moved by other effects (such as Telekinesis , per the FAQ).

EDIT:

6. If the OL wants to attack the ranged hero, the razorwing should do the following:

• Move onto the rubble.
• Move onto the melee hero. (If the ranged hero attacks now, it will hit the melee hero, too.)
• Move onto the pit / ranged hero. (If the melee hero attacks now, it will hit the ranged hero, too.)
• Move to one of the three spaces to the east of the pit / ranged hero. (The ranged hero may guard now, but the webbed razorwing will still be adjacent to the pit.)
• Attack the ranged hero.

EDIT #2:

Note that a figure can have multiple web tokens at a time, but it only gets one web token from an attack, regardless of how much damage is dealt.

Whether you can attack into rubble is actually a point of contention, and has not been officially clarified. Trees (from Road to Legend ) also block line-of-sight, but it's obviously intended for figures to be able to attack into them, so that's usually interpreted as meaning that you can't race line-of-sight through a tree to the far side, but you can trace line-of-sight into or out of a tree space. Rubble might well work the same way. But if you decide that you won't allow tracing line-of-sight into a Rubble space, I would suggest that you not allow tracing out of a Rubble space, either, to prevent flying monsters from sniping asymmetrically without exposing themselves to counter-attack.

The rest of Mahkra's information is correct, though I would note regarding Knockback that not only does the attack need to be fully resolved before the next attack, but the figure doesn't even experience effects for moving through the intervening spaces of Knockback movement; the rules say the figure is knocked "over" the intervening spaces and lands in the final space, and can't be blocked, damaged by Aura, etc. except in the final space.

Also important to notice is that attacks target spaces , not figures , so if you attack a space while two figures are both inside it, you hit both of those figures. So Guarding a razorwing flying over a hero is probably a bad idea.

Thanks for the correction on #1. I guess I was going on intuition regarding the rubble, not an actual black-and-white rule.

Good Points. It seems that we completly forgot about the "Attacking spaces, not figures" issue. The solution in mahkras 5th Point wasn't an option due to the cleverness of our beloved OL. But if the razorwing is in the same space as the ranged hero in the pit, the knockback guard attack of the meele is something to think about, because it would move the razorwing to a save spot (save for the heros of course) and the ranged out of the pit, so that she could use her guard (The knockback wapon was a copper Item and didn't do much damage).

And thanks for the clarification on the knockback-movement. We will keep that in mind and we will discuss whether we allow attacking in and out of an obstacle.

By the way: With Black Widow's Web you get an additional web token for every two surges, so you can apply more than one in a single attack.

Note that if the hero suffers any wounds from the attack, the Guard order will be removed. The only order you can keep when you suffer wounds is the Dodge order.

You could keep the Guard if all of the wounds are blocked by armor/shields/etc., even if you still get knocked back.

And yes, attacking your allies with a Knockback weapon to move them around may occasionally be a good idea. Just remember that the attack still deals full damage (though you can choose to spend power enhancements on range and not spend your surges), and the overlord can still play a Trap (Space) card for the space you get knocked into.

Let's not forget that the Ranged hero in the pit only has LoS to adjacent squares....