11 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

I'll go through the math again if you didnt get it the first time. But the short of it is that buying the kill team, necromunda, warcry or blood bowl boxed sets (which each contain 2 full factions) is factually is cheaper than converting to 2.0 if you play epic or needed a 2nd conversion set. math is cool in that its straight facts. your opinion is not relevant to math

Actually, what you said was

On 2/13/2020 at 10:55 AM, Vontoothskie said:

yes. many thousands of people stopped playing and some games stores abandonded the product line.

i bought a full 40k army and multiple gw games systems for less than my 1.0 conversion for 2 factions of X-wing.

it varies by what you owned from 1.0, but for many players it was cheaper to start over with Republic or CIS than convert.

Buying any full (assuming tournament standard 1500+ point army) 40k army is massively more expensive than converting an ENTIRE collection of X-wing to 2.0. Converting 2 factions to 2.0 from 1.0 is $100 at full retail. Literally, any of the below STARTER BOXES WHICH ARE NOT A FULLY LEGAL TOURNAMENT ARMY are about the same price. Let alone codex, rule book, dice, paint, and templates etc. which easily push you far past that. That said, amazon and most retailers are selling them for less than $50. So lets be generous and say that you NEEDED 2 of each conversion kit for your two factions (you didn't but lets assume). At full retail that is $200. That is still cheaper than getting the starter box for space marines and the current 40k game starter box. By about $100, and once again that doesn't include paint or other supplies.

The Necromunda box by itself is $290. Which is more expensive than 5 full retail conversion kits.....

Now if you are saying you got all of those things used, then that is a bit different. But also not comparable to buying something full retail the day of release. By that logic, my friend converted to 2.0 completely free because I gave him an entire conversion kit for free since I overbought. Checkmate, converting to 2.0 is cheaper than whatever you did in this one case that is completely relevant.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=rebel+conversion+kit+x+wing&crid=30AGNTFQSDG5P&sprefix=rebel+conversion+%2Caps%2C137&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_17

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2917003483&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583754120000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583754120000]

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Boxed-Games?N=1339748208+457750697&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583754900000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583754900000]

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Boxed-Games?N=1339748208+4132548956&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583755140000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583755140000]

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Boxed-Games?N=1339748208+2338266792&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583754960000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583754960000]

But please, tell me again about your math.

On 3/6/2020 at 2:20 PM, Vontoothskie said:

lol youre clearly trolling. injection moldin costs went down, as did freight shipping and labor costs(due to automation). the inflation cost was actually cancelled out by their cost savings.

Where are you getting this information?

4 minutes ago, Knitcardigan said:

Where are you getting this information?

The same place Toothy gets all his "facts" and "maths".

Pulls them straight outta the back passage.

5 minutes ago, Timathius said:

Actually, what you said was

Buying any full (assuming tournament standard 1500+ point army) 40k army is massively more expensive than converting an ENTIRE collection of X-wing to 2.0. Converting 2 factions to 2.0 from 1.0 is $100 at full retail. Literally, any of the below STARTER BOXES WHICH ARE NOT A FULLY LEGAL TOURNAMENT ARMY are about the same price. Let alone codex, rule book, dice, paint, and templates etc. which easily push you far past that. That said, amazon and most retailers are selling them for less than $50. So lets be generous and say that you NEEDED 2 of each conversion kit for your two factions (you didn't but lets assume). At full retail that is $200. That is still cheaper than getting the starter box for space marines and the current 40k game starter box. By about $100, and once again that doesn't include paint or other supplies.

The Necromunda box by itself is $290. Which is more expensive than 5 full retail conversion kits.....

Now if you are saying you got all of those things used, then that is a bit different. But also not comparable to buying something full retail the day of release. By that logic, my friend converted to 2.0 completely free because I gave him an entire conversion kit for free since I overbought. Checkmate, converting to 2.0 is cheaper than whatever you did in this one case that is completely relevant.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=rebel+conversion+kit+x+wing&crid=30AGNTFQSDG5P&sprefix=rebel+conversion+%2Caps%2C137&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_17

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=2562756967+2917003483&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583754120000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583754120000]

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Boxed-Games?N=1339748208+457750697&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583754900000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583754900000]

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Boxed-Games?N=1339748208+4132548956&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583755140000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583755140000]

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Boxed-Games?N=1339748208+2338266792&Nr=AND(sku.siteId%3AUS_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_US_gw)&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[product.startDate+<%3D+1583754960000+and+product.endDate+>%3D+1583754960000]

But please, tell me again about your math.

If you choose expensive armies on the GW site, assume you dont build the army economically, and then also assume youre playing at high points totals(epic equivalent), then sure? you could spend as much as you want.

the dark imperium boxed set for 40k gives you two unique 1,000 point armies for $150, and everything required to play except glue and an exacto knife. pretending that isnt playable is disingenuous. normal games at my flgs are between 800 and 2000 points, with 1000 and 1500 points being what I see people playing. If you split the GW starter boxes with someone like I did its $75 to play the game.

I play kill team mostly, and that game again gives you 2 full factions, plus terrain, rules, templates, dice and a board for $150.

Necromunda does the same, as does warcry. Blood bowl does it for $115.

All these games provide everything you need for close to or less than X-wings minimum starting cost of $130(core + mat + cheapest ship to complete a list, the falcon) for 1 single faction.

Buy what you want but stop pretending that other nerds are idiots hemoraging money while you wisely make good financial decisions. X-wing is not the cheap alternative to warhammer. theyre both expensive hobbies for adults with disposable income, and theyre both fleecing us for the privilege of playing their games

36 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Buy what you want but stop pretending that other nerds are idiots hemoraging money while you wisely make good financial decisions.

Lmao! I play x wing, warmachine, and used to play 40k. X wing is by far the cheapest of the 3. The idea that x wing is equivalent in cost as a hobby compared to any GW game is laughable, you're not fooling anyone toothy. You're also comparing an entire x wing collection to a GW starter. I could also buy a starter set, and 1 large ship and make a legal list in x wing. Ez pz. You're comparing GW starter sets for ONE army to converting entire x wing collections of multiple factions and pretending it's an apples to apples. But guess what, every time GW goes to a new edition you still need a new core rulebook and a new codex, per army. Lmao. Now if you prefer the GW games over x wing, then by all means play what you enjoy. But let's not pretend it's because x wing was too expensive....

So you originally said you got a full 40k army. Then you said it was one of each warcry, necromunda, and bloodbowl. Now it’s just the starter for 40k and only half of it. And we are also now not just converting we are starting x-wing

and through all this, it’s still cheaper to do the same thing with X-wing. You can split a core set and buy two xwings for $60 total and have a list that’s actually competitive and playable (your core set space marine army is not competitive btw). You don’t NEED a mat anymore then you NEED terrain for a 6x4 table. Or just convert one faction for $50 and wait to do the rest later if we “make good financial decisions”. Regardless, anyway you compare it x-wing is cheaper. Stop man, you’re embarrassing yourself.

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

If you choose expensive armies on the GW site, assume you dont build the army economically, and then also assume youre playing at high points totals(epic equivalent), then sure? you could spend as much as you want.

the dark imperium boxed set for 40k gives you two unique 1,000 point armies for $150, and everything required to play except glue and an exacto knife. pretending that isnt playable is disingenuous. normal games at my flgs are between 800 and 2000 points, with 1000 and 1500 points being what I see people playing. If you split the GW starter boxes with someone like I did its $75 to play the game.

I play kill team mostly, and that game again gives you 2 full factions, plus terrain, rules, templates, dice and a board for $150.

Necromunda does the same, as does warcry. Blood bowl does it for $115.

All these games provide everything you need for close to or less than X-wings minimum starting cost of $130(core + mat + cheapest ship to complete a list, the falcon) for 1 single faction.

Buy what you want but stop pretending that other nerds are idiots hemoraging money while you wisely make good financial decisions. X-wing is not the cheap alternative to warhammer. theyre both expensive hobbies for adults with disposable income, and theyre both fleecing us for the privilege of playing their games

Lets make a bet.

Find me a premier level tournament for Warhammer 40k. If you can field a legal army of your choice (that means painted as well) for less money that it takes me to pick a random X-Wing faction of your choice and have a tournament legal army of your choice ( yes you can even pick 4 gunboats) I will buy that army for you and paint it. If I am unable to do that I will delete this account and never come back.

Go.

On 3/7/2020 at 5:40 AM, ClassicalMoser said:

Now you're clearly trolling. There may have been a couple subpar paintjobs, though the B-Wing is the only one I can think of, and it's more than made up for in sculpt improvements. For the most part everything is somewhere between equal and astonishingly better. I don't think you can name a single example of something that's unequivocally worse than it's initial 1st edition counterpart.

Whilst I agree that overall the paint jobs have been much better than 1st ed, I can kinda see his point in a way. Saw's X-wings s-foils were sticky as **** and didn't work properly due to poor assembly. I can call that even since the addition of the moving parts is awesome.

Every single one of my RZ-2 A-wings aren't straight on the peg, and I've had to cut and re-glue them to sit straight.

My TIE Baron has a huge glob of wash on the cockpit hatch that I had to repaint to clean up.

Basically what I'm saying is, I think the details (and specifically paint jobs) overall are much better than 1st ed. but the 2nd ed. models are not without defects, and assembly seems to have less QA these days.

I will say that each wave of new ships seems to get better. The Fireball looks fantastic, and the rest of my friends Barons look really good as well. The new Ghost is awesome, and having new paint jobs for stuff like the Scyk and Headhunter is well worth it.

18 minutes ago, BVRCH said:

Saw's X-wings s-foils were sticky as **** and didn't work properly due to poor assembly. I can call that even since the addition of the moving parts is awesome.

That was the consequence of selling it at first edition prices.

it was a first edition release after all...

The rest I chalk up to QA issues which I will agree have been worse in second edition though I feel like that’s more on Asmodee than FFG

55 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That was the consequence of selling it at first edition prices.

it was a first edition release after all...

The rest I chalk up to QA issues which I will agree have been worse in second edition though I feel like that’s more on Asmodee than FFG

I don't believe that is exactly true, but I do believe we are seeing the benefits of better profit margins with the newer models. It look a while, but its happening.

I think passing the buck to Asmodee is an easy excuse. I'm not saying its incorrect, but if we're paying more, the quality should be higher. Flippantly saying its *insert corporate overlords fault isn't constructive. QA has fallen and whether that is Asmodee's or FFG's fault is irrelevant as the buck stops with FFG to ensure their products are up to a consistent standard.

As I said the average level of quality is higher, but QA and distribution are key issues with FFG right now and that can't be understated. It needs to be improved for consumers to be accepting of the higher cost.

In theory, the cost of the ships is also funding the development of the online squad builder. Not sure the cost is reflected on the quality of said product though.

As far as ship quality, my experience is that 2E is more variable. All 1E ships seemed to be more consistent, you knew what you were going to get. With 2E, you do see product on the shelf with great paint sitting next to others with terrible paint jobs. Buying on-line is a bit like the lottery. It is not widespread, but you do see badly painted units here and there.

I don't have too much experience with Warhammer, but in this game, you can win in the dining room, friend's kitchen table, at the LGS or even place at a store kit, and have that fun pretty cheap (Amazon vs. LGS retail):

Core set: $35-$40

Firespray expansion: $25-$30

Fang expansion: $18-$20

Total price on a solid, powerful, fun list (so I've played against): $78-$90

Yeah, I'm still playing FO.

....and the tea is grand.

17 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

theyre both expensive hobbies for adults with disposable income, and theyre both fleecing us for the privilege of playing their games

Please call the police or blink twice if you need someone else to do so for you. I had no idea agents of FFG / GW were holding you at gun point to play their games. Kidnapping is a crime.

Also speaking of crime ... isn't this you? https://www.shapeways [DOT] com/designer/vontoothskie/lists/x-wing-mini-wants

Maybe prices would be cheaper if people didn't patronize shops that are actively ripping FFG off with 3D printers ... or is the peg hole on the YT just a coincidence?

*edited to remove link

Oh boy. Turns out @Vontoothskie uses that user name for a lot. Like a League of Legends account. With a lot of info. Turns out he is just as loved in that community and debates there with the same amount of good faith arguments.

23 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

If you choose expensive armies on the GW site, assume you dont build the army economically, and then also assume youre playing at high points totals(epic equivalent), then sure? you could spend as much as you want.

the dark imperium boxed set for 40k gives you two unique 1,000 point armies for $150, and everything required to play except glue and an exacto knife. pretending that isnt playable is disingenuous. normal games at my flgs are between 800 and 2000 points, with 1000 and 1500 points being what I see people playing. If you split the GW starter boxes with someone like I did its $75 to play the game.

I play kill team mostly, and that game again gives you 2 full factions, plus terrain, rules, templates, dice and a board for $150.

Necromunda does the same, as does warcry. Blood bowl does it for $115.

All these games provide everything you need for close to or less than X-wings minimum starting cost of $130(core + mat + cheapest ship to complete a list, the falcon) for 1 single faction.

Buy what you want but stop pretending that other nerds are idiots hemoraging money while you wisely make good financial decisions. X-wing is not the cheap alternative to warhammer. theyre both expensive hobbies for adults with disposable income, and theyre both fleecing us for the privilege of playing their games

Have you ever considered the wild idea that maybe - just maybe - people aren't basing their choice of hobby on cost alone? Like - and I know this is wild in concept so stay with me here - maybe people who don't consider X-wing to be bad value for money also just, y'know, don't really like GW games...

Yes, I know, you're probably screaming "HERETIC" right now, because that's what GWeebs love to do, but get this; Not everyone likes ground combat games. Not everyone likes far future or fantasy games. Not everyone likes persistent stat games. Not everyone likes sports games. Some people may like some, all, or none of these. Some people may just hate painting things, and some folks just really don't like the theme or sculpts for a lot of GW stuff. Guess what, some of the players of this game may just be - MildShock - Star Wars fans specifically. I know! Wild!

Maybe stop trying to argue the economics of what people like versus what you like. Let people bloody enjoy what they want to.

Honestly, if it wasn't for FFG and X-Wing I wouldn't know what a fun, competitive tabletop miniatures game actually is.

And I was a GW fan for years.

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Honestly, if it wasn't for FFG and X-Wing I wouldn't know what a fun, competitive tabletop miniatures game actually is.

And I was a GW fan for years.

This. I stopped playing miniature based tabletop games because I got sick of GW crap. I got back into it because X-wing was affordable by comparison.

9 hours ago, NakedDex said:

This. I stopped playing miniature based tabletop games because I got sick of GW crap. I got back into it because X-wing was affordable by comparison.

I thought GW was fun for a long time. Pick up the models, put them together, paint them, then put them all on a table against a friend before slowly taking them all off again.

But after a few official GW events I realised that wasn't the case; there wasn't an actual game there - it was just buy new stuff, all of the time. You could look across the table before you even started putting models down and know if you were going to win or lose.

The final straw came with the end of the Wathammer world. Decades of backstory, world building and characters and an entire system ended because GW wanted to copyright names.

Then came X-Wing, and everything changed. Cheap to get into but still appeals to the collector / hobbyist in me backed by a fast paced, fairly balanced game where you always feel like you have a chance and that is - above all - fun.

And the community is ace as well.

Honestly, when I got into X-wing back in 1e wave 1, one of the selling points was that I didn't have to assemble or paint them because I hadn't painted a **** thing for 15 years or so at that stage. In the last couple of years I have, for entirely other reasons, gotten back into painting minis again, and it's still a selling point that I don't have to paint them. I buy them, put them on a table, and don't worry about it. It's still great, despite the fact that they now get unpackaged at my airbrush station.

2 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I thought GW was fun for a long time. Pick up the models, put them together, paint them, then put them all on a table against a friend before slowly taking them all off again.

But after a few official GW events I realised that wasn't the case; there wasn't an actual game there - it was just buy new stuff, all of the time. You could look across the table before you even started putting models down and know if you were going to win or lose.

The final straw came with the end of the Wathammer world. Decades of backstory, world building and characters and an entire system ended because GW wanted to copyright names.

Then came X-Wing, and everything changed. Cheap to get into but still appeals to the collector / hobbyist in me backed by a fast paced, fairly balanced game where you always feel like you have a chance and that is - above all - fun.

And the community is ace as well.

End of Fantasy was also when I came over. I worked for GW for years as well. Even with my discount, X-Wing is cheaper than being actually competitive in the tournament scene. With the added bonus of not needing the community to put out additional rules for the game to be balanced and maintain all OP basically.

I still paint ships so that part of the hobby is not lost to me.

The community for X-wing is better for sure as well.

Basically, not really sure what the upside of GW in general at this point is. I think GW realized that too which is why they brought back the specialist and side games and are trying to have community outreach again.

1 hour ago, Timathius said:

Basica lly, not really sure what the upside of GW in general at this point is. I think GW realized that too which is why they brought back the specialist and side games and are trying to have community outreach again.

As far as I see it, the return of the specialist games like Blood Bowl, Necromunda and various other supposedly self-contained boxed games seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to copy FFG's formula, which is great at attracting new players. For a long time GW resisted that approach (except with the occasional Christmas release of Space Hulk etc).

GW's is a different beast, though. Their games aren't really games in a very real sense, they're more of a hobby (or a gateway drug to the hobby). They're in a great position with their manufacturing process and their intellectual properties (and are taking it in from video games etc), but they've never really been all that interested in organised, competitive play (or balanced rule sets, for that matter).

I briefly considered picking up Blood Bowl about 12 months ago, but quickly decided it wasn't worth the effort considering how much I'd actually play. The only specialist game I'd reall like to see return would be Inquisitor given how good the up-scaled models would look using GW's modern process (a total pipe dream given those models wouldn't be compatible with any other GW game).

Yeah, I still have my Inquisitor model painted in a box somewhere in my parents attic (along with an altogether too large Eldar Epic army, Gorkamorka, and Space Hulk, if we're still talking about the old niche games they made).

The thing with GW stuff is they have some really decent IP, but the tabletop game is something of a mess for all but the most avid fans. The video game versions of these games scratched enough of the itch for casual players dipping their toes into their favourite factions without the confines of the tabletop rules or the trouble in organising games. I knew a lot of people that played Blood Bowl back in the day, and almost none of them still do on a table, but most of them still do on the PC. Dawn of War had a similar kick among my group for folks who had neither the time or the desire to engage in the tabletop mess anymore, but still enjoyed playing Marines vs Eldar against each other online of a weekend (and I still think the reason DoW became a more restrictive game with the factions and play style was because GW realised it's success was impacting the tabletop, rather than helping it).