I hope folks don't mind, but there seemed to be a good conversation budding in the comments section of the latest Card of the Week article that I thought others might want to see or contribute to.

FATMOUSE wrote:

"One thing I don't like about "raiding" is that it seems to often ignore who the "raider" is. I want you to lose cards, not me! The article mentions using raiding as card denial to hurt your oppnent. I'm having a tough time seeing how denying myself cards is a good idea then; even if it can let me draw a card (especially because it's only one card). Of course there is Balon (better hope I have him in my hand or in play and don't raid him out of my own deck) and some warship discard pile recursion, but I don't think the level of recursion that GJ warrants wanting, or at least not minding, raiding your own deck. I'm guessing the next CP expansion will change this."

JerusalemJones wrote:

"A really good Greyjoy deck will be full of saves, protecting your cards from dying and thus filling your dead pile. I'm already looking at ideas to capitalize on the different raid effects Greyjoy has, and building a "character-lite" deck with lots of saves. It may not work, but I want to try this idea and see where it goes.

But, if played correctly, I could discard a 3-1 ratio between my opponent and me. If I have the cards I want, that's a price I'd be willing to pay. You have to know your own deck to decide if it is worth it to discard cards from your own deck. But card denial is a large part of winning games, and nobody does the raiding better than Greyjoy."

jmccarthy wrote:

"I'm thinking this would combo well with the Hills..."

FATMOUSE wrote:

"JJ: Same thought here of using this with a character-lite deck (I already run a war crest one and I did the same for my milling deck in CCG), but so far GJ's raiding characters are pretty weak and/or expensive. Some even involve having to kill them to mill/raid cards (what lame cards those Drowned Disciples are and Desperate Looters sort of fit here too). Card denial is important, but card denial really boils down to denying your opponent having cards in hand. Raiding doesn't really do that. It helps remove cards but I played Lanni decks back in CCG that would still have 7+ cards in hand. Raiding instead should be initiating effects that help you win (i.e. standing characters, canceling events, winning challenges, etc). I haven't really seen any efficient card that does that. Nightmares in the North sort of does it with the draw, but not really as I would have drawn that card anyway if I didn't run Nightmares...Raiding isn't there yet. Like I said the next CP will hopefully change that.

Jmccarthy: Yeah the hill idea is nice, but expensive. Cape Kraken back in CCG did sort of the same thing, but was better costed and had a better effect."

I agree with Fatmouse that this notion of card denial that some articles have been ascribing to GJ raid effects is weak. The cards I make my opponent discard off the top of his deck are no different than the cards that he never sees because there in bottom portion of his deck and are never drawn during the course of the game (except in the rare, very long match). It would be different if my opponent was relying on search effects or place on top of deck effects and built his deck thinking that would get him his key components ("Hey I can search for X, so why bother putting in three copies") but there isn't much search or retrieve-and-place-on-top effects right now, at least that are seeing much play.

But as for Nightmares in the North, I think this card has potential for GJ as a mid/late game draw with the possible bonus that it disrupts your opponent's plans. As JJ points out, GJ should be able to position itself to usually be able to trigger the card to its advantage, getting the 1 draw. With Fishmonger's Square (which can trigger off cards discarded from any player's deck so the fact that NitN hits yourself has a silver lining) there's I think a strong chance you'll get another two draw. So one event that gives a GJ player a good shot at drawing three cards when combo'd with a 1G location in the middle to late rounds sounds good (although perhaps not great) to me.

Well consider that many champion deck lists include 1x of this or that. Milling can potentially hurt people who include all sorts of toolbox cards they expect to get via search. I also think the Greyjoy mill deck is less about "Decking" and more about the side effects (claiming power with the two weenies, drawing cards...). But for it to do anything significant you need to build up to about a loss of 6-8 cards a turn. Not only that but you also have to be able to keep the opponent from winning until turn 8 or 9.

Also dont forget about ten Towers... that card is just gold in a mill deck.

Is Ten Towers still legal?

And of this irritating theme gets frutehr amplified without more cancel - I'm going to vent my pique here quite frequently. Gimmick decks and combo decks can get reliably consistent if you don't have cancels available.

yup.

Ten Towers is from Clash of arms.

and more Cancel would be most welcomed.

It's nice that this card replaces itself, but I wouldn't think of it as "draw."

It does seem to have potential in a raid deck (which might, one day, be playable). I agree with bloodycelt that a raiding deck should be a combination of raid cards and cards that get better with raiding. At least, I hope raiding is never so strong that you can just make a deck that solely depletes the opponent's deck without playing out characters and winning challenges at the same time. I think we're starting get sufficient raiding cards for a raid deck to be viable, but right now there aren't enough cards with good effects to synergize with the raiding. Effects like those of Fishmonger's Square or Kraken Tattoo are neat but they aren't strong enough to justify devoting are large portion of a deck to raiding (There are also recursive cards like Darkstar and Trident Reinforcements which are nice to discard from your own deck).

Right now in the game, resources are fairly scarce (outside of Lannister). Gold and draw are precious commodities. If you devote some of your gold and cards purely to raiding, you will get crushed during the challenges phase by your opponent's superior forces. A raid deck needs cards that benefit enough from raiding to be on par or stronger than cards that cost the same amount and do not require raiding to function. I don't think we are at that point yet. A raiding card that can replace itself and be played for free does ease the resource crunch some, but I think it will take something more than Time of Trials Balon and Fishmonger's Square to justify it taking up deck space.

It would be nice to see some really control/defensive cards that benefit from raiding. A defensive raid deck could just try not to lose long enough to exhaust its opponents' decks.

At least, that's my experience from my attempts to build raid decks so far in LCG (all have been terrible).

I think that raiding a deck can be a solid form of card denial, albeit in a less orthodox manner. Removing cards from hand are not the only way of denying your opponent his cards, removing his ability to play them (Shadow of the South, denying influence/gold, Fear of Winter) works as well, and raiding is a variation on that. Most of the decks I see depend on certain cards to come up to create the synergy necessary to win the game, or rely on some sort of toolbox card if things turn South. If you can strip those out of your opponents deck you have weakened his deck, denied him cards he needs to make his deck work effectively.

I do believe this is probably the least efficient method of denying your opponent use of his cards, and it is for that reason I've always wanted the effects to either take giant chunks out of the deck or to be coupled with an effect that pushed the player using them closer to the win condition. Raiding Fleet is a bit of a monster, and normally by the time you get him out you are several rounds into the game and your opponents cards in his deck are worth even more because so many have passed through his hand already. Unfortunately the cost is high enough that under a lot of circumstances you are better off putting out two other characters than the RF.

Nightmares in the North are a good way to hamper your opponent with little cost to you in a well deck intended to keep it's dead pile light or free of characters, something that a GJ deck should be able to excel at, even if not raid focused.

dormouse said:

conversely, since a deck has to be 60 you could be making your opponents deck more efficient by making it only 55 or even 50 cards....

schrecklich said:

Have you been trying in melee or joust? I could see in melee this being alot stronger since you could use raiding as a way to draw with fishmongers.

I have found that frostfang peaks + winter + the 1 gold int discarder does fairly well. I do want to try and see if one can build a decent mill engine that can generate cards and power (the actual decking being a side effect).

Also .. meele? A Meele mill deck = everyone just gangs up on you for annoying them.

Stag Lord said:

Ten Towers is mighty expensive to play a bunch of cards that will most likely have an OOH cost added to them. To use it you also need ALL the characters and locations you control to have the HG affiliation. Cool events can be played with it, but I always considered the card to be too rich (even in CCG) and too volatile to rely on consistently. Granted, I never once tried it, but I didn't have to to know there was another better card to run in my deck instead.

Lars said:

Exactly. That's why you can't rely on milling alone to win you games (unless you plan on winning by completely discarding your opponent's deck). It's frustrating to see cards go from your deck, but experienced players won't get dismayed by it. They'll say, "Ok, I don't have that anymore, but I still have this." They'll adapt. I remember many times using the last of my round's milling effects to get rid of a card I didn't like from my opponent's deck only to see a much more dangerous card ready for him or her to draw next turn. Granted draw is 2 cards; therefore, my opponent would have drawn it anyway, but I think the point still stands. Maybe the 3rd card is even better.

bloodycelt said:

Not true:

1) Ganging up on someone just because they have cards that are annoying is one of the best ways to ensure you will lose. In melees you attack to the weakest/most vulnerable (to propel you) or you attack the strongest (to slow them down).

2) The more action a mill deck gets, the more likely milling will just take place. When facing a mill deck you just have to deal with it.

FATMOUSE said:

Oh o_0 The act of everyone moving their hand to the deck to discard a card was considered too annoying and time wasting that as soon as veteran looters hit the board everyone would attack me to make certain the guy died. People are emotional, and something like milling can make one become irrational and not care about winning, but just stopping the annoyance.

Another example of emotional decisions: How many people automaticly use a milked character as claim even if the character is still good with his printed strength and icons (ex. Prince's Loyalist)? Part of what makes a mill deck work is it makes people behave irrationally.

goshdarnstud said:

Personally, I have only tried joust. One person I play with tried it in melee once when I was playing. He raided a few times, but I don't think he ever hit with the fishmonger's. It just seemed like that card was too inconsistent. This was before Frostfang Peaks, which seems like a pretty good card in a raid deck though (his was a greyjoy deck with all the priests and harbor thug, etc.).

bloodycelt said:

I agree people often act irrationally/emotionally in melees, which makes mill decks become an easy target; however, it's also part of melee to convince your opponents that you aren't the most threatening player in the field. But that is sometimes easier said than done.

Well, I'm currently working on my raid deck, and found that I can often discard 3-8 cards per turn pretty regularily. Greyjoy is in a position to capitalize on Plot Phase discard between the Frostfangs adn their new priest who discards two cards if you win initiative; their auto-win init event is darn near gold for this type of deck. And when you watch that Martell player disacrd both Red Vengeance and He Calls it Thinking, you gotta love it. Also, using Aeron Damphair to search for the Drowned Disciple is nice as well I run 3 copies of each in my deck, and the recusrion is working out nicely. I recently played a game where over half of my opponent's deck was in the discard pile by the fourth turn, and I had yet to actaully play Raiding Fleet. And when you are discarding this many cards a turn, Fishmongers Square becomes money in the bank.

Stag Lord said:

I'm confused why this is a bad thing. At the moment, there are no viable combo decks that I'm aware of. I'd rather like that to change.