31 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Probably, but I dunno what it would be. The burden of a changed rule would, IMO, be almost zero, so I just can't see any reason to not change it.

That is interesting, because it suggests that our expected ratio is very different, and that I expect way fewer cheaters than you do. The whole discussion reminds me of type I and II errors, how we judge false positives and false negatives. I believe the convicted innocent defendant is way worse, and more frequent than the acquitted cheater. Your version makes more type I errors to reduce type II errors, and that seems wrong to me. That sounds too harsh, let's say less ideal.

22 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

And note you say "misrolling dice happens quite a lot." So the idea that a changed rule would encourage people to be more mindful, and get the correct number of dice in the first place .. is that not persuasive at all?

I'm not convinced that it helps to prevent honest mistakes.

12 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

How do you not notice when too many dice are rolled? Rolling dice is such a central part of the game. It is the one moment that requires the undivided attention of both players.

A few game sessions back, Don my partner for our HOTAC game, did a 'mis-roll' twice. Even with me reminding him "That's 4 attack, vs your three evade, one for your base agility, 1 for being range 3, and 1 for your stealth device".. He grabbed FIVE red and two green.. It was an honest mistake, because he didn't look at the dice color when he grabbed them all... I've had it happen as well at Origins, my 1st year i even played X-wing, cause one of the players on the table, was partially color blind, so didn't catch the difference between the attack and defense die..

5 hours ago, wurms said:

The rule should just be that the opposing player decides if a reroll should occur if too many dice are rolled. There will be no salt because everyone will know if its bad for the opposing player, you will have to reroll, and bad for the roller, it stays.

5 hours ago, Silver_leader said:

IMO if someone rolls always more dices than supposed, then just make him roll again all his dices. The day he will roll natties on his first roll, and blank out on his second, he will stop to do that

One method. if you do it twice in a row, if it happens a Third time, someone BESIDES you rolls the die.

35 minutes ago, wurms said:

That is the entire point of this thread. None of this matters UNLESS someone is trying to take advantage of the system. There is a weakness/exploit and someone will take advantage. People try and change dials on stream, so people will try and roll more dice than allowed because there is a system in place to take advantage of an exploit. Just change the rule and fix it. Simple. This wont matter to 99% of players. But it will happen. Changing dials ON STREAM happens. Purposely rolling too many dice will/most likely has happened.

My point is that this isn't an exploitable weakness in the rules – it is a deliberate breaking of the rules.

In the above case, the rules were followed and the fact that the original roll blanked out is completely irrelevant.

There is a process for restoring the game state, and it's no less cheating and no less noticeable (on the contrary it's much more noticeable) than changing your dial or nudging your ship so you'll land just beside the obstacle/out of arc etc.

It's already cheating. It's already defined. It's already preventable. Don't get salty because you would have profited from an illegal game state.

It's like forgetting to take a stress after a red, and and then remembering and complaining that it keeps you from doing the maneuver you wanted to do before you remembered you should be stressed. Sure, players probably exploit forgotten stress tokens for their own benefit, but if players are being honest and restoring a correct game state, any opportunities lost were never real opportunities in the first place, so complaining about losing them just makes you look like a whiner.

The blanked-out die roll doesn't matter because it was never a legal game state in the first place.

/thread.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

This discussion has been had before.

I still don't understand.

Does this happen?

7 minutes ago, svelok said:

I still don't understand. Does this happen?

Does what happen? This:

(1) Do people sometimes roll badly with too many dice, then notice they rolled badly and point out that they need to roll again with the correct number of dice?

Yes, that happens. Or this:

(2) Do people do that on purpose ?

I dunno, but I reluctantly (but strongly) suspect so. A very small number of competitive players in X-Wing almost certainly cheat.

In many cases, I would be with @GreenDragoon ... my innate optimism as to the rarity of cheating would, when compared to many anti-cheating mechanics, lead me to say, "Not worth the candle." But in this case, the fix has pretty much zero burden, on anybody, so ... why not?

44 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

In many cases, I would be with @GreenDragoon ... my innate optimism as to the rarity of cheating would, when compared to many anti-cheating mechanics, lead me to say, "Not worth the candle." But in this case, the fix has pretty much zero burden, on anybody, so ... why not?

If I roll 5 dice on a 4 dice attack, they come up all blanks, my opponent notices and accepts it, can I spend a target lock to re-roll the 5 dice?

Given that you want to be able to force a reroll if the enemy gets good results and force no reroll if the enemy gets bad results... why not make the rule just “if you roll too many dice, cancel all results. You lose, you get nothing, good day sir!”

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Yes, that happens. Or this:

(2) Do people do that on purpose ?

I dunno, but I reluctantly (but strongly) suspect so.

So the answer is we don't even know? It's just head-simmed cheating?

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

In many cases, I would be with @GreenDragoon ... my innate optimism as to the rarity of cheating would, when compared to many anti-cheating mechanics, lead me to say, "Not worth the candle." But in this case, the fix has pretty much zero burden, on anybody, so ... why not?

So what do you propose for someone who "forgets" a stress token, "bumps" a dial, or "accidentally" nudges a ship?

The solution already exists: You re-roll all dice. The invalid dice do not count and never did. It's waaaaaay easier to notice that the wrong number of dice were rolled than that your opponent missed a stress token, nudges a ship, or slips a dial. If you can restore a correct game state, restore a correct game state. Non-correct game states don't count for anything.

If there's absolutely no reason to believe your opponent is doing it on purpose (which there absolutely isn't in the original post) there's absolutely no reason to punish your opponent for making a mistake.

Under the proposed rule, your opponent forgetting a gas cloud works out to your advantage. This is fundamentally wrong; it's not a missed trigger, it's an incorrect game state and needs to be restored to the correct game state. There's no reason to punish people for making honest mistakes that affect correct game state . The entirely unsubstantiated fear of cheating isn't anywhere near enough to justify it either.

16 minutes ago, svelok said:

So the answer is we don't even know? It's just head-simmed cheating?

Its pointing out a vulnerability in the system, and correcting it.

The fact that its nigh-impossible to prove ill intent does not prove lack of ill intent.

This puts the onus on the roller to ensure that they are accurate before rolling, and I believe that is the correct place for it to be.

26 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Its pointing out a vulnerability in the system, and correcting it.

The fact that its nigh-impossible to prove ill intent does not prove lack of ill intent.

This puts the onus on the roller to ensure that they are accurate before rolling, and I believe that is the correct place for it to be.

Maybe if they enforce the Floor Rules it'll have the same effect?

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/e0/4f/e04f6d73-6e5e-4351-b067-0020f070365a/fantasy_flight_floor_rules.pdf

19 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Maybe if they enforce the Floor Rules it'll have the same effect?

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/e0/4f/e04f6d73-6e5e-4351-b067-0020f070365a/fantasy_flight_floor_rules.pdf

There certainly is some room in there for solution, but it ends up being at the discretion of the Leader, which doesn't exist in casual games. Rewinding (which re-rolling the dice would fall under) is only supposed to be done in the case where it does not give either player an advantage. I think there is an argument there that re-rolling a sub-par result is an advantage (Han Solo re-roll in a possibly clutch moment). Letting it stand and playing on certainly would if the roll was good.

Interesting that intent is completely absent in the section about cheating, only that the act benefits a player (getting to reroll sub-average roll does) and that they know what they are doing is against the rules ( yeah, they realized after the fact that they rolled too many dice), but understandable, as its such a hard thing to prove. But is general rule, not a hard and fast rule and largely left to the discretion of the 3rd party Leader.

Quote

Note: As a general rule, in order for a player to be confirmed as cheating, two criteria must be met: first, the player must either be gaining an advantage from their actions or putting someone else at a disadvantage; second, the person must be aware that what they are doing is against the rules. If both of these criteria are not met, then the disruption might fall under a different category and should be addressed as such. That said, each instance is largely up to a leader’s interpretation and judgment. If a leader is uncertain whether or not a player is cheating or has cheated, then they should consult with another leader about what action to take

11 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Rewinding (which re-rolling the dice would fall under) is only supposed to be done in the case where it does not give either player an advantage. I think there is an argument there that re-rolling a sub-par result is an advantage (Han Solo re-roll in a possibly clutch moment).

First, wait, what? Where is that rule spelled out? Correct game state is always supposed to be maintained by both players. If I realize that I executed a red while stressed and that worked out to my advantage, am I not allowed to point it out and fix it, hurting myself? That seems like a totally nonsensical kind of rule to make. Unless we're talking about "advantage" in a much more specific way.

Second, I don't think I'd say it's true anyway. It's not really rewinding . No one got any advantage out of it yet. This is all taking place before any damage has been dealt. That's regardless of what came up, and it doesn't matter who noticed it.

If someone can't count to five then I don't know what they do hope to keep track of in this game...

Edit: Here we go:

Quote

The potential for one player or the other to gain advantage by overlooking a step or mandatory occurrence is very real, which is why these disruptions are taken seriously. Even if a player did not intend to overlook a rule, they could still benefit enough to turn the game in their favor. Thus, it is imperative that these disruptions be dealt with in order to restore the integrity of the game. To do this, Judges are encouraged to use one of three main resolutions: play on , resolve now , or rewind .

The play on resolution means that, after both players acknowledge the mistake and the Judge determines that neither player was given notable advantage because of it, the game is continued without “going back” and resolving or correcting the mistake.

The resolve now solution is used when the overlooked rule or ability in question can still be retroactively applied without giving either player major advantage while not applying it will give one player advantage over the other.

The rewind solution is used when neither of the other two solutions can be used without giving one player significant advantage over the other. For this solution, players reverse their actions and “back up” the game to the point where the mistake was made, correct it, then continue on 7 from that point as normal. Please note that this solution can be very disruptive to the flow of the game and the tournament round, and therefore should only be used if neither of the other two solutions will work.

So here it's spelled out in the case of five blank greens where it should be four:

Play on interpretation: Re-roll the five blank dice (giving the attacker advantage in this situation)

Resolve now interpretation: Remove one of the blank dice (giving the attacker advantage in this situation)

Rewind interpretation: Re-roll the green dice (giving neither player advantage as the outcome is not known)

The key here is that the first two will always give advantage to one player depending on what was rolled when the mistake is noticed. The suggestion has been to punish the player who made the mistake by using the Play on method when it is to the rollers disadvantage or the Rewind when it is to the roller's disadvantage. This is unfair because it will always punish what could be an honest mistake. It would be like forcing a player to perform a 1 white straight if he nudges his ship before it activates.

But obviously, making it a rule to Play on when this happens would benefit rolling too many dice, which would just be silly as everyone would just win games by "accidentally" rolling 6 dice all game.

At the same time, using Resolve now would advantage whichever player got to choose which die to remove (the defender removing a blank or the attacker removing an evade, for example).

The only fair way to resolve any given game state of this type is to rewind every one that happens. Dice are random. The dice that don't count don't count, no matter what they said. It's on both of you to maintain correct game state throughout, regardless of advantage. Just count your dice right.

In the case that a player is actually doing this intentionally, it will be clear. If they not only pick up, but actually roll the incorrect number of dice multiple times, they are clearly cheating, just like if they're being "clumsy" and bumping their ships to face just the right direction. Don't punish honest mistakes for fear of cheaters when cheaters will become apparent anyway

If you roll the wrong amount of dice twice in the same game, both players should take a few seconds to collect themselves and call over a judge to ensure it hasn’t been an issue earlier in the tournament. It should rarely happen once, let alone twice.

7 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

First, wait, what? Where is that rule spelled out? Correct game state is always supposed to be maintained by both players. If I realize that I executed a red while stressed and that worked out to my advantage, am I not allowed to point it out and fix it, hurting myself? That seems like a totally nonsensical kind of rule to make. Unless we're talking about "advantage" in a much more specific way.

The section under Game Disruptions in the floor rules. If playing on would give the player who made the mistake an advantage, (executing a red while stressed) then you would next look at resolve now, or rewind. Since there is specifically a rule that applies when someone dials in a red while stressed, it would apply. The discussion about the current rule of re-rolling the incorrect die roll is specifically what is being debated in this thread and if it needs to be changed, since there are edge cases where it can be used as an advantage.

Remember, the rule we have now about how to handle dialing in a red while stressed is not the same rule we started with. Sometimes they need to be changed to adapt to how players are employing them.

1 minute ago, kempokid said:

If you roll the wrong amount of dice twice in the same game, both players should take a few seconds to collect themselves and call over a judge to ensure it hasn’t been an issue earlier in the tournament. It should rarely happen once, let alone twice.

It only takes once to matter. And the cheater can go "Oops, my mistake." just like any accidental roll that commonly happens in games. Or else, the cheater gets away with it and profits.

5 minutes ago, kris40k said:

If playing on would give the player who made the mistake an advantage, (executing a red while stressed) then you would next look at resolve now, or rewind.

You described the process correctly but you got the meaning backward.

Playing on (as a rule) advantages the mis-roller

Resolving now always advantages whoever gets to remove a die

Rewinding (as a rule) advantages no one unless there's a cheater, which will become evident and is a totally separate thing. Don't punish honest mistakes that are easily reversible. It's bad sportsmanship.

3 minutes ago, wurms said:

It only takes once to matter. And the cheater can go "Oops, my mistake." just like any accidental roll that commonly happens in games. Or else, the cheater gets away with it and profits.

Okay, but realistically, isn't it statistically much more likely that they got a super favorable roll and will now be forced to re-roll it into a much worse one?

It's the responsibility of both players to maintain proper game state. Who are all these people that are letting their opponent roll the wrong number of dice? I typically verbally confirm the dice counts of every roll before they leave the hand, and that's in casual games...

1 minute ago, wurms said:

It only takes once to matter. And the cheater can go "Oops, my mistake." just like any accidental roll that commonly happens in games. Or else, the cheater gets away with it and profits.

The whole discussion feels like it’s at an impasse. If it happens more than once, it’s a cheater, if it happens just once, maybe it is and maybe it isn’t. It’s out of your control at that point. For me, the punishment should be the “grim” rule; do what’s worse for the player who messed up.

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You described the process correctly but you got the meaning backward.

Playing on advantages the mis-roller

Resolving now advantages whoever gets to remove a die

Rewinding advantages no one unless there's a cheater, which will become evident and is a totally separate thing. Don't punish honest mistakes that are easily reversible. It's bad sportsmanship.

I agree with you on the first two points.

Re-winding benefits the mis-roller if the roll was sub-par. The circumstances have been clearly laid out earlier in this thread.

I don't think that the floor rules as they exist in that document can comfortably handle this situation.

I think explicitly handling the situation by improving the rule on mis-rolling to Jeff's suggestion would better close up that gap.

2 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Okay, but realistically, isn't it statistically much more likely that they got a super favorable roll and will now be forced to re-roll it into a much worse one?

Again, the point of the thread is if the opposing player does not notice, the cheater now has a super favorable roll on his side. Worse case? He rerolls an illegal roll. Dice dont have memories, so instead of rolling 4 dice and averaging 2hits, you now roll three and average 1.5. The system currently in place allows you to do this at least once per opponent and just say "Oops" if caught. Nobody will ever know anyones true intent unless notes are being taken, which is illegal funny enough.

5 minutes ago, wurms said:

Again, the point of the thread is if the opposing player does not notice, the cheater now has a super favorable roll on his side. Worse case? He rerolls an illegal roll. Dice dont have memories, so instead of rolling 4 dice and averaging 2hits, you now roll three and average 1.5. The system currently in place allows you to do this at least once per opponent and just say "Oops" if caught. Nobody will ever know anyones true intent unless notes are being taken, which is illegal funny enough.

You could report every infraction to a judge, to record it. By the floor rules, it would likely be a warning, hard warning, disqualification, all depending on the judgement of the leader.

But that amusing falls under having the opponent make a decision whether or not to punish someone.

The ironic thing is that as I age and get more absent-minded, I am much more likely to get the slightly bad end of my proposed change than the good end. @wurms and others I play frequently can attest that sometimes it seems like I can barely remember the names of my pilots. (I constantly call Boba "Obi." Why? Well, obviously it's because I played Obi-Wan a lot up until, you know, two months ago. Give me another two months, and I'll be using the name "Boba" ... just probably for Kylo or something.) I call out locks and put the token next to my own ship. I forget what I dialed in 30 seconds before. And so on.

Yeah, if this rule does change, at some point in the future I'll definitely have to grin and bear it.

1 minute ago, kris40k said:

You could report every infraction to a judge, to record it. By the floor rules, it would likely be a warning, hard warning, disqualification, all depending on the judgement of the leader.

But that amusing falls under having the opponent make a decision whether or not to punish someone.

Yes, or change the rule like others have suggested so there is no need for a judge. I dont want to report honest players every game for a simple mistake just for the 1 in 100 games you play someone who tries to take advantage of the system

Just now, wurms said:

Yes, or change the rule like others have suggested so there is no need for a judge. I dont want to report honest players every game for a simple mistake just for the 1 in 100 games you play someone who tries to take advantage of the system

@kris40k 's point exactly.