This branches out from the salt mines thread, as I don't want to derail the thread.

The situation is the following :

18 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

How? The unethical player knowingly rolls one too many dice ... if it comes up okay and nobody notices, great. If it comes up okay and someone notices, well, still no worse than before. But if it comes up bad? The unethical player himself can "notice," and regretfully re-roll the whole thing, with one fewer die.

• If the roll is bad, he will mention that there are too many and reroll with one fewer die
• If the roll is good, he will not mention anything and hope his opponent also doesn't notice
  • If the opponent notices, then he'll wave it off as innocent mistake and reroll with the correct number

This is cheating. If you do this: stop. You're a sad human being.

The rules:
Reroll as soon as one of the players notices. Let's call that the mandatory reroll.
As an aside, where is that from? I found it in the rules addendum for the UK SOS. Is it somewhere more official? I'll edit in the source.

edit: from Hiemfire

Quote

This pertains (Floor Rules page 8):

"2.4 Illegal Game State
An illegal game state occurs any time an ability or game step is resolved in an incorrect or inaccurate manner.
Players are expected to play the game accurately, and to resolve all game steps and abilities correctly. All players are responsible for maintaining a legal game state at all times.
Examples of illegal game states include when a player performs an illegal action or incorrectly resolves a card ability (such as if they misread a number)."

Possible solutions:
Communicate! Talk to your opponent. Vassal is very good training in this regard, as every single roll gets announced: "3v2", "4 (3+trickshot) v1 ", "2v5 (3+range+rock)". I suggest you do the same at the table. I know I do. The attacker and defender were already declared. Do the same for dice.
If there is any doubt about the number of dice, ask why they rolled that amount.
Also, talk among players: "So strange, this guy always rolled too many dice in our game" - "Oh, same here, now that you mention it"
And if it happens more than once, tell your TO. As soon as he hears it from more than one player, he should probably keep an eye on the potential cheater.

My questions:
How is this even a thing? I mean that in two ways:

• How do you not notice when too many dice are rolled? Rolling dice is such a central part of the game. It is the one moment that requires the undivided attention of both players.
• How can anyone afford to cheat in that way? Your local communities must be either huge, or very loose. I don't think anyone here could afford to cheat like that.

The disagreement:
An alternative solution is that the other player gets to decide on your reroll - let's call it the conditional reroll.

18 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

A better rule would be that if too many dice are rolled, the non-rolling player decides whether they are re-rolled. It's still completely fair -- aside from the possibility of nobody noticing, but that's just sometimes gonna happen -- but it's not angle-shootable.

That's where I disagree. I suspect it is in part because the whole idea is something that just never occurred to me, and because I already announce/commentate the number of dice to be rolled. Both - mandatory and conditional reroll - solutions require the non-rolling player to notice.
The price of the mandatory reroll is that players can attempt to cheat. I expect that number to be very low.
The price of the conditional reroll is that the non-rolling player is forced into the situation where he has to decide between fairness and personal gain. I do not think that this is the right way to handle it. This can easily create animosities when there is a simple rule: reroll. Same for cocked dice. As soon as you both agree it's not flat on the table, reroll it. Same for dice that dropped out of your hand: reroll it.

I can see where @Jeff Wilder is coming from with his suggestion. However, my concern is around consistency; what happens if (by mistake) I roll too many dice, getting a bad result, but then my opponent notices something I missed and decides to not allow a reroll, should I then return the favour if they make a similar mistake? I could see this leading to trouble and frayed tempers. It creates perverse incentives, especially to indicate that you would allow rerolls (to induce your opponent to allow you rerolls in case of a mistake) only to renege on that at a time of advantage (woo, Game Theory!).

I think the best protocol would be that each time dice are rolled, the players verbally confirm and agree the composition of the dice pool, similar to how you describe Vassal doing it. If a mistake is then identified after the roll, it *must* be corrected as per normal protocol.

21 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

However, my concern is around consistency; what happens if (by mistake) I roll too many dice, getting a bad result, but then my opponent notices something I missed and decides to not allow a reroll, should I then return the favour if they make a similar mistake? I could see this leading to trouble and frayed tempers. It creates perverse incentives, especially to indicate that you would allow rerolls (to induce your opponent to allow you rerolls in case of a mistake) only to renege on that at a time of advantage (woo, Game Theory!).

Exactly this!

My wild guess is that these cases happen way more often than intentional cheating. And as such, the cost for all of us is higher with the conditional reroll compared to the mandatory reroll.

in my game group if you roll too many dices, but you miss all of them, you don't get the reroll. It seems unfair otherwise.

wut?

is this a thing that happens...

2 hours ago, alien earth said:

in my game group if you roll too many dices, but you miss all of them, you don't get the reroll. It seems unfair otherwise.

I like this. It's super harsh but you'll never forget again!

I would suggest it only legislated this way at upper casual + tier events

Like everything else though, it feels like yes it could be a thing maybe. But in reality it's not and I'm not too worried about it. However as always report to your TO so we can keep tabs on anything suspicious

Jeff’s idea would be a great rule to implement for a single event if anyone suspects on of the players might try that strategy.

I doubt it’s that common though.

1 hour ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

Jeff’s idea would be a great rule to implement for a single event if anyone suspects on of the players might try that strategy.

I doubt it’s that common though.

It doesnt have to be common, or purposeful to hurt. I played against a very cool local player and he just happened to roll 5 green dice instead of 4, and blanked out on all 5 dice, then we laughed and rules state he has to reroll them all and he got the evades he needed to win the game (this was the last shot of the game and I would have won with the blankout). So one minor instance of this rule in a single game can change everything. It could be the difference of making the cut at a big tournament, etc.

The rule should just be that the opposing player decides if a reroll should occur if too many dice are rolled. There will be no salt because everyone will know if its bad for the opposing player, you will have to reroll, and bad for the roller, it stays.

Jeff routinely careS too much about random specific things and wants to fix things that aren’t significantly broken. He just wants everything in the world to be right.

This is one of the many cases where it happens so infrequently and creates so little issues that it’s not really worth worrying about. The existing rules for both resolving dice issues and tracking warnings are proportionate and appropriate to the scale of the issue.

IMO if someone rolls always more dices than supposed, then just make him roll again all his dices. The day he will roll natties on his first roll, and blank out on his second, he will stop to do that

34 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Jeff routinely careS too much about random specific things and wants to fix things that aren’t significantly broken. He just wants everything in the world to be right.

And I fully support that, as I'm very similar and usually share his feelings in that regard.

But I also agree with you that in this case, the existing rules seem appropriate to the extent. I'm looking forward to his opinion.

45 minutes ago, wurms said:

It doesnt have to be common, or purposeful to hurt. I played against a very cool local player and he just happened to roll 5 green dice instead of 4, and blanked out on all 5 dice, then we laughed and rules state he has to reroll them all and he got the evades he needed to win the game (this was the last shot of the game and I would have won with the blankout). So one minor instance of this rule in a single game can change everything. It could be the difference of making the cut at a big tournament, etc.

The rule should just be that the opposing player decides if a reroll should occur if too many dice are rolled. There will be no salt because everyone will know if its bad for the opposing player, you will have to reroll, and bad for the roller, it stays.

The official, correct dice roll was the only real one. If I were randomly to toss 5 red dice before the game starts and I get 5 natural crits, should that also affect the game state? The answer is no.

4 dice turned up a couple of evades? Cool. Unless someone was actually rolling too many on purpose, hoping you wouldn't notice, what does it matter? It's all RNG anyway. Don't get mad because a huge swing in variance (favoring you) was unofficial and didn't count. Seems kind of petty to me. If you were the other player I bet you wouldn't have fussed about it at all...

5 hours ago, alien earth said:

in my game group if you roll too many dices, but you miss all of them, you don't get the reroll. It seems unfair otherwise.

What's unfair about rolling the correct number of dice? The first dice don't count, period, for better or for worse, and might as well not exist. Maybe just pay attention to how many dice are rolled in general, and correct honest mistakes when you catch them rather than forcing your opponent to suffer as a result because they forgot about a gas cloud?

I should point out that the number of dice rolled is not optional; this is an accuracy-of-game-state effect, not an ability trigger that's been forgotten.

There's all this emotion and superstition that goes into X-Wing dice. I just wonder why? They're random. They're supposed to be random. If they give you something you don't like, maybe next time they'll give you something you do. Maybe they won't. They're random. Dice that don't count, well, don't count. So don't count them.

8 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

As an aside, where is that from? I found it in the rules addendum for the UK SOS. Is it somewhere more official? I'll edit in the source

This pertains (Floor Rules page 8):

"2.4 Illegal Game State
An illegal game state occurs any time an ability or game step is resolved in an incorrect or inaccurate manner.
Players are expected to play the game accurately, and to resolve all game steps and abilities correctly. All players are responsible for maintaining a legal game state at all times.
Examples of illegal game states include when a player performs an illegal action or incorrectly resolves a card ability (such as if they misread a number)."

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/e0/4f/e04f6d73-6e5e-4351-b067-0020f070365a/fantasy_flight_floor_rules.pdf

1 hour ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Jeff routinely careS too much about random specific things and wants to fix things that aren’t significantly broken. He just wants everything in the world to be right.

Ouch. (I think?)

Quote

This is one of the many cases where it happens so infrequently and creates so little issues that it’s not really worth worrying about.

I've seen it happen on a few occasions, and the whole point is that on some occasions it just goes unnoticed, until the cheater (you're right, @GreenDragoon , it's obviously cheating) needs to take advantage.

Quote

The existing rules for both resolving dice issues and tracking warnings are proportionate and appropriate to the scale of the issue.

My suggestion makes nothing more difficult, nor more onerous. It just makes things more fair.

(And, FWIW, I've never said anything about warnings.)

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

And I fully support that, as I'm very similar and usually share his feelings in that regard.

Like bruthahs from two different Swiss and hippie muthahs.

Quote

I'm looking forward to his opinion.

Not really much to add. My proposed change is both fair and does something to prevent angle-shooting. It's easy to understand and explain. Since it would be in the rules, I can't see why it would cause animus between players, any more than the current rules does, just in the opposite direction. (And I don't think the current rules does.) You mentioned, in a post above, that players should be mindful and verbal about numbers of dice. I agree, and my proposed rule incentivizes that.

@Stay OT Leader 's 73rd username is correct, also. When I envision changes to rules, my suggestions are pretty much always from this perspective: "Who does the current rules, as it exists, hurt ... competitive and experienced players, or newer players?" If the answer is "newer players," I suggest the change. The current rule here -- obviously, I think? -- would much more easily allow competitive players to take advantage of newer players than my rule would.

9 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

M y questions:
How is this even a thing? I mean that in two ways:

• How do you not notice when too many dice are rolled? Rolling dice is such a central part of the game. It is the one moment that requires the undivided attention of both players.
• How can anyone afford to cheat in that way? Your local communities must be either huge, or very loose. I don't think anyone here could afford to cheat like that.

Dunno. Even in friendly games, I and my oppponent are usually looking to keep the game "clean", and usually catch any mis-rolls.

15 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Not really much to add. My proposed change is both fair and does something to prevent angle-shooting. It's easy to understand and explain. Since it would be in the rules, I can't see why it would cause animus between players, any more than the current rules does, just in the opposite direction.

Essentially because the non-rolling player gets to decide something that he should not. That puts an unfair onus on him. It's why a judge won't even let a player ask at a final table whether he wants to let his opponent correct the dial when flying off the table. I don't want to put a player into the position where the right thing is not the same as the rules.

In this case, you roll too many dice and they are all hits: I notice and tell you to reroll because you should. If they are all blanks, I notice and... don't say anything because I benefit? Or I say something but don't let you reroll because I benefit? That leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

14 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Dunno. Even in friendly games, I and my oppponent are usually looking to keep the game "clean", and usually catch any mis-rolls.

Sure. Almost all games are like that.

Yet there exist rules for rolling the wrong number of dice. Because it happens.

Why not make those rules as fair and un-cheatable as they can be?

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Essentially because the non-rolling player gets to decide something that he should not. That puts an unfair onus on him. It's why a judge won't even let a player ask at a final table whether he wants to let his opponent correct the dial when flying off the table. I don't want to put a player into the position where the right thing is not the same as the rules.

But that's not in the rules. The judge doesn't have much of a choice, if it's right in his face. (In my experience, most judges would much rather let the players decide, as long as there weren't some weird imbalance of power, or coercion.)

This method would be in the rules. It's not the same thing.

Quote

In this case, you roll too many dice and they are all hits: I notice and tell you to reroll because you should. If they are all blanks, I notice and... don't say anything because I benefit? Or I say something but don't let you reroll because I benefit? That leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

You benefit because the other player made a (presumable) mistake and broke the rules. You're not benefiting because you're a bad person. It's not like the mis-rolling player didn't get to roll at all ... he did roll, and he rolled poorly, even on too many dice . All this rule does is say that he doesn't get to try again, because he's the one that messed up.

Look, the absolute fairest thing to do -- if you're really worried about bad feelings -- would be to randomize which extra die gets pulled from what's rolled. Right? But that's not workable.

So it just seems obvious to me that the next best thing is to have a rule that does everything it can to prevent a cheater from using the rule in his favor, while remaining fair. And that, as a side benefit, incentivizes both players to roll the correct number in the first place. And, further, protects newer players from experienced players, who are more positioned to take advantage of them. I don't see much of a down-side at all, and what there potentially could be is far less than what the current rule allows.

23 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

But that's not in the rules. The judge doesn't have much of a choice, if it's right in his face. (In my experience, most judges would much rather let the players decide, as long as there weren't some weird imbalance of power, or coercion.)

This method would be in the rules. It's not the same thing.

You benefit because the other player made a (presumable) mistake and broke the rules. You're not benefiting because you're a bad person. It's not like the mis-rolling player didn't get to roll at all ... he did roll, and he rolled poorly, even on too many dice . All this rule does is say that he doesn't get to try again, because he's the one that messed up.

Look, the absolute fairest thing to do -- if you're really worried about bad feelings -- would be to randomize which extra die gets pulled from what's rolled. Right? But that's not workable.

So it just seems obvious to me that the next best thing is to have a rule that does everything it can to prevent a cheater from using the rule in his favor, while remaining fair. And that, as a side benefit, incentivizes both players to roll the correct number in the first place. And, further, protects newer players from experienced players, who are more positioned to take advantage of them. I don't see much of a down-side at all, and what there potentially could be is far less than what the current rule allows.

It's such a niche thing (so I appreciate the time to discuss it even more), but it really feels unfair to me. I'm trying hard to figure out the reason, and I think it is because the reasoning is based on the result of the roll. But I can't put my finger on the exact reason.

I don't see the reroll as "trying again" - because the result should not matter. I do the same with cocked dice - I reroll anyway, whether I'd benefit or not. The difference is that cocked dice are not due to a mistake on my part, while rolling too many is. I get that. And maybe it is due to my naivete in that regard. Cheating has such a high social cost that it is not worth it, in any way. The maybe false conclusion for me is then that it doesn't happen often. Misrolling dice however happens quite a bit.

So here's a question for you: is there a ratio between unintentional and cheating where you would say you'd rather keep it as it is? (e: for example 1 cheater to 1000 unintentional rolls )

This discussion has been had before.

18 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

But I can't put my finger on the exact reason.

Probably summed up by "This is something that isn't permitted but it looks to benefit me so I'll stay quite and let it slide".

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Probably summed up by "This is something that isn't permitted but it looks to benefit me so I'll stay quite and let it slide".

You mean the version where the non-rolling person gets to decide is the one that "benefits me"? Because as far as I can tell, that version is currently against the rules (isn't permitted) while rerolling independent of result is asked for.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

1. You mean the version where the non-rolling person gets to decide is the one that "benefits me"? 2. Because as far as I can tell, that version is currently against the rules (isn't permitted) while rerolling independent of result is asked for.

1. Yes.

2. Correct.

48 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

So here's a question for you: is there a ratio between unintentional and cheating where you would say you'd rather keep it as it is? (e: for example 1 cheater to 1000 unintentional rolls )

Probably, but I dunno what it would be. The burden of a changed rule would, IMO, be almost zero, so I just can't see any reason to not change it.

And note you say "misrolling dice happens quite a lot." So the idea that a changed rule would encourage people to be more mindful, and get the correct number of dice in the first place .. is that not persuasive at all?

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

4 dice turned up a couple of evades? Cool. Unless someone was actually rolling too many on purpose, hoping you wouldn't notice, what does it matter?

That is the entire point of this thread. None of this matters UNLESS someone is trying to take advantage of the system. There is a weakness/exploit and someone will take advantage. People try and change dials on stream, so people will try and roll more dice than allowed because there is a system in place to take advantage of an exploit. Just change the rule and fix it. Simple. This wont matter to 99% of players. But it will happen. Changing dials ON STREAM happens. Purposely rolling too many dice will/most likely has happened.