43 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:And most plot holes...aren’t.
But, the term has become so commonly used (and misused) that it’s come to mean, “Anything I didn’t like about a movie.”
And "Mary Sue" now means "Character I didn't like."
Rey’s father was...what? (Rise of Skywalker novelization spoilers)
4 minutes ago, Mistervimes said:And "Mary Sue" now means "Character I didn't like."
Funny thing. No one complained about Rey being a Mary Sue till after TLJ and Rey's power ramped up significantly with no reason. Mostly because people thought Episode 8 would give some explanation.
2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:No one complained about Rey being a Mary Sue till after TLJ
It must feel great to live in a reality that can be shaped to your liking.
1 minute ago, DanteRotterdam said:It must feel great to live in a reality that can be shaped to your liking.
Pot Kettle.
I am not reinventing reality to fit my narrative but, hey, whatever floats your boat big guy.
20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Funny thing. No one complained about Rey being a Mary Sue till after TLJ and Rey's power ramped up significantly with no reason.
Funny thing, she was.
”How could she fly the Falcon so well? Mary Sue!”
“How could she use the mind trick without training? Mary Sue!”
“How come she could fight with a lightsaber without training or without getting slaughtered by Kylo Ren? Mary Sue!”
”Why’d Leia ignore Chewie and hug Rey? Mary Sue!”
All of these and probably more were heard in the wake of TFA.
As for the “no reason” thing?
”Darkness rises, and light to meet it.” Right there in the dialogue.
20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Mostly because people thought Episode 8 would give some explanation.
Why?
Never mind the fact that, as noted, it did...why? Why did they expect that part 2 of 3 absolutely, positively must provide this explanation (which, by chance, it did)?
Edited by Nytwyng21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Funny thing. No one complained about Rey being a Mary Sue till after TLJ and Rey's power ramped up significantly with no reason. Mostly because people thought Episode 8 would give some explanation.
I know you were using hyperbole here, but there's literally a comment by GM Chris echoing concerns he's heard from others and agreed with about Rey being a Mary Sue. And the comment was made when speculating what was to come in episode 8.
As a side note, I think the term Mary-Sue and all its derivatives should die in a fire.
19 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Pot Kettle.
Forbes did a whole freaking article on this thing that apparently didn’t happen. But sure I am the one reinventing reality.
42 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Funny thing. No one complained about Rey being a Mary Sue till after TLJ...
This is a blatant falsehood.
At least they showed Luke being taught before he managed any Force shenanigans.. In fact, he was training before he leveled up.. my problem with Rey is that her treatment goes against every depiction of Force users. (not including Broom-boy) Anakin only had very good reflexes/insight while racing.. we'll assume Luke did as well.. Obi-wan taught them, then they showed Force powers... Ezra Bridger was much the same, good reflexes, no powers. until taught.
The only rationalization for Rey was some outside movie explanation. "She 'downloaded' Kylo's training during her interrogation." or Snokes comment of Light rises to meet the Darkness.. which just sounds lazy. (light rises makes sense lore wise, but not as an explanation on how she knew how to do something.
Her being able to pilot could've been brought up by Unkar Plutt: telling her he needs her to fly a shipment to the next settlement in the coming days as he hands her the portions, and he can pay her ten more for the delivery. Piloting ability, check.
Force powers? possible explanation by Han as they travel? "one time I saw Luke doing this, he explained to me how he did it.. that he could feel.. ect..." limited access to maybe learning powers, check.
17 minutes ago, kaosoe said:but there's literally a comment by GM Chris echoing concerns he's heard from others and agreed with about Rey being a Mary Sue.
Yeah, but GM Chris is a total a**hole. The last time I went to Texas not only did he feed me a great dinner and get me totally drunk (in the daytime no less) he then also forced me to see a hockeygame with his family and drive me to my hotel after a great day out. Stupid jerk.
4 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:Obi-wan taught them, then they showed Force powers...
Obi Wan taught Luke next to nothing. A little sparring with a tiny droid. That’s it.
But here is Luke in ESB using the force to pull his saber from the ice.
6 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:Obi Wan taught Luke next to nothing. A little sparring with a tiny droid. That’s it.
But here is Luke in ESB using the force to pull his saber from the ice.
we didnt see the whole session. So we do not know all that was covered. same with Yoda.
6 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:Obi Wan taught Luke next to nothing. A little sparring with a tiny droid. That’s it.
But here is Luke in ESB using the force to pull his saber from the ice.
But he taught him enough to access the Force to blow the Death Star.
Empire was also a time gap, and assumed he was at least learned some basic skills. (and he struggled to move that saber.)
1 minute ago, RuusMarev said:At least they showed Luke being taught before he managed any Force shenanigans.. In fact, he was training before he leveled up..
Really?
Obi-Wan had him wave a lightsaber around for 5 minutes in the Falcon, and made a single successful deflection. Later in the same movie, he’s using the Force to guide him to a one-in-a-million shot to blow up a space station the size of a small moon.
Fast forward to Empire. In his second scene he’s pulling his saber to him with the Force? When did that become a thing, and how did he know how to do it?
12 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:only rationalization for Rey was some outside movie explanation. "She 'downloaded' Kylo's training during her interrogation." or Snokes comment of Light rises to meet the Darkness.. which just sounds lazy. (light rises makes sense lore wise, but not as an explanation on how she knew how to do something.
How did Luke know how to use telekinesis/Move?
13 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:Her being able to pilot could've been brought up by Unkar Plutt: telling her he needs her to fly a shipment to the next settlement in the coming days as he hands her the portions, and he can pay her ten more for the delivery. Piloting ability, check.
Well, it was mentioned by her, in much the same way that a certain farmboy’s flying skills were. (“You bet! I’m not such a bad pilot myself.”) If we want to include the Special Edition footage, his childhood buddy vouches for him, so apparently just a friend saying he’s “the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim” is enough to establish him as skilled enough to be one of only three surviving pilots in the final attack.
16 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:Force powers? possible explanation by Han as they travel? "one time I saw Luke doing this, he explained to me how he did it.. that he could feel.. ect..." limited access to maybe learning powers, check.
Or maybe having heard tales of the mythic Luke Skywalker? Which she clearly had, because she recognizes the name and says she thought he was just a myth when Finn mentions Luke.
6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:we didnt see the whole session. So we do not know all that was covered. same with Yoda.
See! You can think for yourself!
4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:we didnt see the whole session. So we do not know all that was covered. same with Yoda.
We see enough to know that Luke is clearly frustrated with his lack of success. We do see the whole session from the time Obi-Wan puts the blast helmet on him. Han walks into the room, short conversation, arrival at the remains of Alderaan. Are you suggesting Obi-Wan squeezed some more training in there somewhere?
And Luke pulled the saber from the ice before he even heard the name Yoda, let alone went to Dagobah and trained with him. How’d he know that was even a thing, and how’d he learn to do it? Gary Stu!
The issue with the term "Mary Sue" is that people don't know what it means and substitute Mary Sue for Iconic Heroes that they think are too powerful or too competent -- particularly female characters. "The Mary Sue The term comes from a particular type of bad fan-fiction where the fan creation, a blatant self-insert, becomes the central character of the story with the existing characters becoming mere hangers-on to the Sue."
An Iconic (or Aspirational) Hero is a character that has few if any flaws to overcome during their arc and are frequently hyper-competent. These characters are featured in Iconic Stories. We like Iconic Heroes because of their hyper-competency. James Bond, Batman, Superman, Captain America, Wonder Woman, Miss Marple, Sherlock Holmes, and Hercules are all Iconic Heroes. So are Luke, Han, and Leia. So is Rey.
Dramatic Heroes battle themselves as much as they battle external forces. They have deep flaws and must come to grips with them. These characters are featured in Dramatic Stories. We like Dramatic Heroes because we love them for their deep flaws and see a part of ourselves in them. Their story often ends in tragedy (particularly in the Greek sense). Orpheus, Walter White, King Lear, the majority of the cast of the Wire are Dramatic Heroes.
The Dramatic Hero follows a character arc in which he is changed by his experience of the world. The Iconic Hero undertakes tasks (often over and over like the labors of Hercules or serial comics or the Star Wars saga) and changes the world, restoring order to it, by remaining true to their essential self.
Apparently I cannot type "the" correctly
7 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:But he taught him enough to access the Force to blow the Death Star.
After a five minute lesson, he can harness the Force enough to blow up the Death Star? Gary Stu!
8 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:Empire was also a time gap, and assumed he was at least learned some basic skills. (and he struggled to move that saber.)
You know what they say about when you assume....
Why would he even think that Move was a thing at all? In his short time with Obi-Wan, he never saw that used. (Neither did the audience.) I tell ya, Empire broke every established rule about the Force. New powers, pulling things through the air...they really should have had a plan, and paid attention to what happened in the movie before it. Maybe Luke wouldn’t have been such a Gary Stu.
Look, I was fine with Rey having crazy powers in Rise. There was a time jump and it's established that Leia has being teaching her, and Rey also has the Achto Books. If they showed her moving the Crait rocks at that point, cool.
I'm not trying to be a bad guy here, It's just a matter of consistency.. just because Rey is a woman, I'm not supposed to question? If this movie opened up with a male Rey on Jaku, doing these crazy Force powers with no training, or explanation, I would be saying the same thing. If Last Jedi opened a week after the Lightsaber hand off, with Luke showing Rey the ropes, then she pulls off the Crait rock ability? Awesome, clearly a better student then Luke in Empire.
1 minute ago, RuusMarev said:just because Rey is a woman, I'm not supposed to question?
Nope, the problem is quite the inverse. Many people question BECAUSE she is a woman and that is what is making people annoyed.
29 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:Really?
Obi-Wan had him wave a lightsaber around for 5 minutes in the Falcon, and made a single successful deflection. Later in the same movie, he’s using the Force to guide him to a one-in-a-million shot to blow up a space station the size of a small moon.
Fast forward to Empire. In his second scene he’s pulling his saber to him with the Force? When did that become a thing, and how did he know how to do it?
How did Luke know how to use telekinesis/Move?
Well, it was mentioned by her, in much the same way that a certain farmboy’s flying skills were. (“You bet! I’m not such a bad pilot myself.”) If we want to include the Special Edition footage, his childhood buddy vouches for him, so apparently just a friend saying he’s “the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim” is enough to establish him as skilled enough to be one of only three surviving pilots in the final attack.
Or maybe having heard tales of the mythic Luke Skywalker? Which she clearly had, because she recognizes the name and says she thought he was just a myth when Finn mentions Luke.
We do not know how much time passed on the Falcom. You assume 5 minutes. That does not mean it was only 5 minutes. that is just what we saw.
5 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:Nope, the problem is quite the inverse. Many people question BECAUSE she is a woman and that is what is making people annoyed.
That is your assumption. That doesn't make you right. It just means that is what you assume.
1 minute ago, RuusMarev said:I'm not trying to be a bad guy here, It's just a matter of consistency.. just because Rey is a woman, I'm not supposed to question? If this movie opened up with a male Rey on Jaku, doing these crazy Force powers with no training, or explanation, I would be saying the same thing.
But...it didn’t open on Jakku with Rey “doing these crazy Force powers with no training for explanation.” She didn’t do anything with the Force herself until the mind trick, which seemed an act of desperation...and didn’t work the first couple of attempts. In the fight in the woods, she calls the saber to her hand. The look on her face when it happens suggests to me that she didn’t consciously decide to do it, but was reaching desperately towards it and ran on instinct. She seemed very surprised that it happened. And for TFA, the presentation seemed pretty consistent...she succeeded in using the Force when she didn’t try, but when she just operated on instinct.
Luke does the same sort of thing...waves a lightsaber around, gets a tickle of the Force (such as when Rey just plain had the Force ram into her when she touched the Skywalker saber), and then goes on instinct to use the force to destroy the Death Star. This would all appear to be intentional parallel.
8 minutes ago, RuusMarev said:If Last Jedi opened a week after the Lightsaber hand off, with Luke showing Rey the ropes, then she pulls off the Crait rock ability? Awesome, clearly a better student then Luke in Empire.
Time did pass between the saber handoff and the rocks on Crait. She’d already used Move (this is still the RPG forum, so I’ll use those terms 😁) twice...once on Starkiller, and once on Ach-To. She knows it’s a thing. Luke taught her how to reach out and touch the Force. So, she gave it a try (and has a very, “How about that? It worked!” expression when she does it).
Now, I’m not even trying to remotely suggest that your problem with Rey is her gender. I’m just saying that her alleged transgressions against Star Wars actually fit with established patterns of her character archetype in Star Wars. For some reason, what worked for you before didn’t work this time around.
My only issue with the women in the ST is that they are poorly written in my opinion. Rey super powerful in the Force? Awesome, show me how she knows.
I thought the intro to Tiko was good, then she didn't have much of a purpose.. They could have substituted Poe and built up from Awakens. The Casino run didn't make sense for me.. Rose had a rough childhood and she hated the elite stepping on the little guy. Ok, thats some backstory and motivation, and Kelly did a good job acting, its just Rose was underused in my opinion.
Holdo, was treated bad too.. I understand Poe is a hot head, and she didn't know him.. but If she pulled him off to the side and quietly reprimanded him and told him there was a plan, but due to Operational Security, she wasn't prepared to tell him. There are professional ways to rein in your troops, if you belittle them in public, they tend to do stupid things.