1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

The difference is this is the first movie of the series. the sequels started answering those questions. not all of them but many of them. The obvious questions created by the Force Awakens were completely ignored in The Last Jedi. Where as in Empire we got to see a Holo of the Emperor and see Vaders Reaction to him. Hans bounty with Jabba came to a head. and so on.

And, in TFA, we see a holo or Snoke and both Ren and Hux’s reactions to him. I’ll ask again, since I haven’t seen the answer, what information about him did you not receive that was essential to the sequels’ story, and why was it necessary to provide this information no later than part 2 of 3?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

The difference you guys keep ignoring is we had NOTHING before A New Hope. That is not true for A Force Awakens. The Force Awakens starts with a disconnect.

So, a movie set ~30 years after the previous installment didn’t pick up immediately where the last left off. That certainly is odd, isn’t it?

(Despite, of course, the fact that the status quo is pretty much as we left it at the end of that one.)

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Which should have been addressed at least a little in The Last Jedi.

“Should?”

When and where was this requirement established? You wanted part 2 to...go back and provide exposition for what happened before part 1? Exposition that didn’t impact how the trilogy’s story would progress?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

We just had the First Order has this massive fleet that apparently no one noticed and we run this place now....

Somebody noticed. (See: the existence of the Resistance. See also: the Republic quietly supporting the Resistance as stated in TFA’s crawl.)

And, yeah...they destroyed the New Republic’s center of government, then stepped in and said, “We’re in charge now.”

Y’know...kinda like the Rebels did when they overthrew the Empire.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

and constantly being to told to shut up about your questions doesnt make them go away.

I haven’t said to shut up. I haven’t said you shouldn’t have questions. I have, in fact, specifically said that I wouldn’t mind seeing some of those questions answered, as they could make for entertaining stories.

What I’ve said is that some (most) of the questions that you’re latching into don’t have answers that were vital to the story of these three movies; that the answers’ inclusion would have no impact on the trilogy’s story; that the ones whose answers did impact the story were answered in the movies at some point or another. Insisting that, if not done in part 1, they absolutely must be in part 2, but since you didn’t enjoy part 2, their absence was not only an inherent flaw in the movie but an intentional insult to anyone interested in the answers is, I’m sorry, but a bit extreme.

You wanted to know where Snoke came from. Abrams and Terrio answered that in IX. Why would you assume, expect, or require Johnson to answer that in VIII?

You wanted to know what Rey’s deal was? Johnson gave an answer in VIII, but you didn’t like it. Abrams and Terrio gave another answer in IX.

You wanted to know the genesis of the First Order. Where they came from wasn’t as important to the movies as the fact that they were there. But, we got the sort of explorations of their beginnings and growth that’s better suited to other media in...other media.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

As a Role Player why do you completely ignore these world building questions?

No one’s ignoring anything. Maybe it will indeed be helpful to look at it in RPG terms.

If you sit down and plan out a campaign, you may indeed go into great detail in the back story to help yourself create adventure hooks, to make things feel immersive, and provide your players with a great sandbox to play in. When you sit down to play, is it necessary to tell your players every bit of detail you have in mind? No. You come up with a fantastic NPC, maybe one of the villains, who has this amazing backstory. When that villain appears, does it go like this:?

”The blaster fire dies down, as the stormtroopers overwhelm the Tantive IV’s forces. Through the smoke strides a tall, cloaked figure clad entirely in black, his face hidden by a frightening skull-like mask and helmet. The sound of his mechanical breathing is chilling. He steps over bodies as he surveys the scene. This is Darth Vader. Vader was once Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker, a pupil of Obi-Wan Kenobi until he turned to evil. The enforcer of Emperor Palpatine, Vader is secretly the father of (looks at the player playing Luke) Luke Skywalker! Tormented by his fall to the dark side, he is unaware that Luke lives. Only this son he has never known can turn him back to the light.”

Or, do you give them what they need to know for the session(s) at hand?

ETA: You might even have some cool little tidbit of backstory that never makes it into the open of the campaign

39 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Having been very familiar with the work of JJ Abrams for a long time, I already knew there there were no answers coming, assuming they even were intended as quastions.

He's very good at what he does, but what he does is most definitely not answering questions like those.

JJ makes beautiful middles of stories. He can't establish a shot to save his life and he's never figured out what an ending looks like, but that middle part is always really pretty.

17 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I never lied about the answers I have gotten. I have gotten a lot of non answers or non satisfying ones. Saying that dont answer my questions is not lying.

Oh so it is a bit like Trump’s fake news shtick! It is not really that you didn’t get answers it is that they don’t further your point so they are then non-answers. Well if it works for your President...

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

And, in TFA, we see a holo or Snoke and both Ren and Hux’s reactions to him. I’ll ask again, since I haven’t seen the answer, what information about him did you not receive that was essential to the sequels’ story, and why was it necessary to provide this information no later than part 2 of 3?

So, a movie set ~30 years after the previous installment didn’t pick up immediately where the last left off. That certainly is odd, isn’t it?

(Despite, of course, the fact that the status quo is pretty much as we left it at the end of that one.)

“Should?”

When and where was this requirement established? You wanted part 2 to...go back and provide exposition for what happened before part 1? Exposition that didn’t impact how the trilogy’s story would progress?

Somebody noticed. (See: the existence of the Resistance. See also: the Republic quietly supporting the Resistance as stated in TFA’s crawl.)

And, yeah...they destroyed the New Republic’s center of government, then stepped in and said, “We’re in charge now.”

Y’know...kinda like the Rebels did when they overthrew the Empire.

I haven’t said to shut up. I haven’t said you shouldn’t have questions. I have, in fact, specifically said that I wouldn’t mind seeing some of those questions answered, as they could make for entertaining stories.

What I’ve said is that some (most) of the questions that you’re latching into don’t have answers that were vital to the story of these three movies; that the answers’ inclusion would have no impact on the trilogy’s story; that the ones whose answers did impact the story were answered in the movies at some point or another. Insisting that, if not done in part 1, they absolutely must be in part 2, but since you didn’t enjoy part 2, their absence was not only an inherent flaw in the movie but an intentional insult to anyone interested in the answers is, I’m sorry, but a bit extreme.

You wanted to know where Snoke came from. Abrams and Terrio answered that in IX. Why would you assume, expect, or require Johnson to answer that in VIII?

You wanted to know what Rey’s deal was? Johnson gave an answer in VIII, but you didn’t like it. Abrams and Terrio gave another answer in IX.

You wanted to know the genesis of the First Order. Where they came from wasn’t as important to the movies as the fact that they were there. But, we got the sort of explorations of their beginnings and growth that’s better suited to other media in...other media.

No one’s ignoring anything. Maybe it will indeed be helpful to look at it in RPG terms.

If you sit down and plan out a campaign, you may indeed go into great detail in the back story to help yourself create adventure hooks, to make things feel immersive, and provide your players with a great sandbox to play in. When you sit down to play, is it necessary to tell your players every bit of detail you have in mind? No. You come up with a fantastic NPC, maybe one of the villains, who has this amazing backstory. When that villain appears, does it go like this:?

”The blaster fire dies down, as the stormtroopers overwhelm the Tantive IV’s forces. Through the smoke strides a tall, cloaked figure clad entirely in black, his face hidden by a frightening skull-like mask and helmet. The sound of his mechanical breathing is chilling. He steps over bodies as he surveys the scene. This is Darth Vader. Vader was once Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker, a pupil of Obi-Wan Kenobi until he turned to evil. The enforcer of Emperor Palpatine, Vader is secretly the father of (looks at the player playing Luke) Luke Skywalker! Tormented by his fall to the dark side, he is unaware that Luke lives. Only this son he has never known can turn him back to the light.”

Or, do you give them what they need to know for the session(s) at hand?

You keep making the same mistake. Over and over again. 30 years is not enough time to make where we were in Return of the Jedi and this movie not relevant. I get it you dont think it is important. Problem is I DO think it is important. Because my brain keeps going where did these guys come from? Why is the New Republic ignoring this threat. Oh look they ingnored this problem and the First Order wiped out a system. Are the New Republic people Morons? I think so because they behaved stupidly....Who is this Snoke Character? Why did Leia let Snoke influence Ben so much? Why would she let this creepy jerk anywhere near her child? How did they build and hide this huge fleet? Does the New Republic not have any intelligence operations at all? Clearly Leia thought the First order was a threat and was doing something about it...and yet she let Snoke turn her sone to the dark side...

All of which leads me to think they started the Sequel trilogy at the wrong point.

It's not a mistake when you admit that it's just your opinion.

It's not a 'mistake' of the film, nor is it objectively a bad idea. You just don't like it, which is fine, but that's just opinion.

Obviously, plenty of people do, and that's okay.

4 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You keep making the same mistake. Over and over again. 30 years is not enough time to make where we were in Return of the Jedi and this movie not relevant.

As I’ve noted before, RotJ ended with the Empire (apparently) deposed and the Rebels (supposedly) taking charge as some form of new Republic.

And TFA begins with...the Republic in charge, and a growing threat of the First Order wanting to follow in the Empire’s footsteps.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I get it you dont think it is important. Problem is I DO think it is important.

And here’s something you keep clinging to, without the context I’m using. What I’m saying is that exactly how the First Order came to be isn’t as important to the sequels’ story as the mere fact that they’re there.

I totally get that you think it’s important. And I agree it can make for an interesting story. (In fact, it’s made for an interesting part of several stories in other Star Wars media.) But that’s not what the story of the sequels is about.

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Because my brain keeps going where did these guys come from?

Please tell me how going into details of the First Order’s origins would affect the story that the sequels were telling. Not what interests you about how they came to be but how, specifically, those particular nuggets of information would impact the story.

13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Why is the New Republic ignoring this threat.

Well, they supported the Resistance (as we’re told in TFA’s crawl), which was pretty clearly opposing the First Order. So they obviously weren’t completely ignoring it.

14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Oh look they ingnored this problem and the First Order wiped out a system.

...with a superweapon that neither the Resistance nor Republic knew much about until it was too late.

16 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Who is this Snoke Character?

The Supreme Leader of the First Order. What else did you need to know for the story? (I’ve answered this one each time you’ve asked it. I’ve also asked my follow up almost every time. Would you mind extending the same courtesy to me that I’ve done?)

18 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Why did Leia let Snoke influence Ben so much? Why would she let this creepy jerk anywhere near her child?

Who said she “let” him do anything or was aware of his influence until after the fact? I mean, do you really want to go there about the methods predators use to groom young victims? I get that you’re passionate (maybe disproportionately so) about assigning every single apparent sin any Star Wars fan has ever experienced to Rian Johnson and TLJ, but going down this particular path could get pretty dark. Like, real world dark.

22 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

How did they build and hide this huge fleet?

Well, if their presence was known, and the Republic was quietly supporting a Resistance to oppose them...why are we assuming they were hiding anything?

If we’re assuming some incredibly overwhelming force because they quickly stepped into the power vacuum, well...the Rebels must have had quite the hidden fleet of their own to just step in and take over post-Endor.

25 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Does the New Republic not have any intelligence operations at all? Clearly Leia thought the First order was a threat and was doing something about it...

And, as we’re told in TFA’s crawl, the Republic is supporting the Resistance.

27 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

and yet she let Snoke turn her sone to the dark side...

Same question: who said anything about “let?” Twice in one post you’ve asked this same thing. As depressing as it will be (understatement), I guess I’ll start compiling some resources about predators grooming their victims. 😢

29 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

All of which leads me to think they started the Sequel trilogy at the wrong point.

So, you’d have preferred, what...recasting the OT’s “big three,” just so we could get this trilogy’s version of TPM, with scintillating discussion of rumors of neo-Nazis grouping together and so we could all see the Star Wars version of the Diff’rent Strokes episode where WKRP’s Mr Carlson molests Dudley?

Just now, Nytwyng said:

As I’ve noted before, RotJ ended with the Empire (apparently) deposed and the Rebels (supposedly) taking charge as some form of new Republic.

And TFA begins with...the Republic in charge, and a growing threat of the First Order wanting to follow in the Empire’s footsteps.

And here’s something you keep clinging to, without the context I’m using. What I’m saying is that exactly how the First Order came to be isn’t as important to the sequels’ story as the mere fact that they’re there.

I totally get that you think it’s important. And I agree it can make for an interesting story. (In fact, it’s made for an interesting part of several stories in other Star Wars media.) But that’s not what the story of the sequels is about.

Please tell me how going into details of the First Order’s origins would affect the story that the sequels were telling. Not what interests you about how they came to be but how, specifically, those particular nuggets of information would impact the story.

Well, they supported the Resistance (as we’re told in TFA’s crawl), which was pretty clearly opposing the First Order. So they obviously weren’t completely ignoring it.

...with a superweapon that neither the Resistance nor Republic knew much about until it was too late.

The Supreme Leader of the First Order. What else did you need to know for the story? (I’ve answered this one each time you’ve asked it. I’ve also asked my follow up almost every time. Would you mind extending the same courtesy to me that I’ve done?)

Who said she “let” him do anything or was aware of his influence until after the fact? I mean, do you really want to go there about the methods predators use to groom young victims? I get that you’re passionate (maybe disproportionately so) about assigning every single apparent sin any Star Wars fan has ever experienced to Rian Johnson and TLJ, but going down this particular path could get pretty dark. Like, real world dark.

Well, if their presence was known, and the Republic was quietly supporting a Resistance to oppose them...why are we assuming they were hiding anything?

If we’re assuming some incredibly overwhelming force because they quickly stepped into the power vacuum, well...the Rebels must have had quite the hidden fleet of their own to just step in and take over post-Endor.

And, as we’re told in TFA’s crawl, the Republic is supporting the Resistance.

Same question: who said anything about “let?” Twice in one post you’ve asked this same thing. As depressing as it will be (understatement), I guess I’ll start compiling some resources about predators grooming their victims. 😢

So, you’d have preferred, what...recasting the OT’s “big three,” just so we could get this trilogy’s version of TPM, with scintillating discussion of rumors of neo-Nazis grouping together and so we could all see the Star Wars version of the Diff’rent Strokes episode where WKRP’s Mr Carlson molests Dudley?

It effects the story in that it becomes a thing the irks me with the where the **** did these guys come from and why did the New Republic ignore them. It does not make sense that you would ignore a group fashioning themselves after the Empire....How the first order came to be is important because with out knowing that the whole political set up falls apart...How do you have this massive fleet.

I didnt expect that apparently no one noticed... So yeah it is important because it damages my ability to suspend disbelief. You dont think this is important. But it is important.

I didnt expect the recasting of the big 3. I just think the implementation of the sequel trilogy doesnt work. Because I dont think there was a plan at all. JJ had to try and cram 2 movies into one because where RJ left things painted them into a corner... My problem is the Sequel Trilogy feel like a a story where 2 story tellers are fighting about where the move was going to go. What they needed was someone like Fiegi as producer. The Last Jedi is just where the story falls apart. Because it does not really fit the rest of the sequels very well.

32 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

why did the New Republic ignore them

Gets shown twice In the previous post, with examples, that this is not true. Repeats it again anyway.

34 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You dont think this is important. But it is important.

A little reflection on your choice of words here will tell you all you need to know about why you are butting heads do much in this thread.

37 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

where RJ left things painted them into a corner...

They could have gone anywhere and everywhere after TLJ. It was wide open. Strange sort of corner to be painted into.

7 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

They could have gone anywhere and everywhere after TLJ. It was wide open. Strange sort of corner to be painted into.

Not really when the next movie is supposed to be the end of the trilogy and they killed the major bad guy in the second movie.

Just now, Daeglan said:

Not really when the next movie is supposed to be the end of the trilogy and they killed the major bad guy in the second movie.

They killed Kylo in the second movie?!

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

They killed Kylo in the second movie?!

They Killed Snoke the main villain. The guy influencing Kylo and controlling the first order.. Yeah he is the main bad guy.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They Killed Snoke the main villain. The guy influencing Kylo and controlling the first order.. Yeah he is the main bad guy.

No he is not. Kylo is.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

It effects the story in that it becomes a thing the irks me with the where the **** did these guys come from and why did the New Republic ignore them.

Ah, so it doesn’t actually impact the story that the sequels were telling. It’s just that the story the sequels chose to told wasn’t the story you wanted to see. Which circles back around to personal preference rather than it actually being a problem with the movie(s).

Which is fine.

It’s also fine to say so.

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It does not make sense that you would ignore a group fashioning themselves after the Empire...

They didn’t ignore them. (See: the Republic’s support of the Resistance.)

12 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

How the first order came to be is important because with out knowing that the whole political set up falls apart...How do you have this massive fleet.

It’s not important to the sequels’ story. I’ll ask again: how would including details of the First Order’s origins impact the story that was told? Not how you would have preferred to see the story unfold, not your personal enjoyment of the story, but what part of the story would actually change if that information was included?

14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I didnt expect that apparently no one noticed... So yeah it is important because it damages my ability to suspend disbelief. You dont think this is important. But it is important.

Deja vu. Didn’t you just write these same sentences in the paragraph above this one? Same answers.

15 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I didnt expect the recasting of the big 3.

But you seem to have wanted it to begin some significant period of time before it did, since you want that ~30 years of interim exposition to be told on screen. One of those pieces of exposition that you insist should have occurred on screen is Luke’s story from Endor to Ach-To. All respect to Mark Hamill, because he turned in a killer performance in TLJ, but he ain’t a spring chicken; it’s not just 30ish years for the characters, but the actors. Giving us 30 years of exposition would require recasting.

20 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I just think the implementation of the sequel trilogy doesnt work. Because I dont think there was a plan at all.

There wasn’t one in 77 or 80, either. “They needed a plan” is a big thing for some people. All they really needed was an outline, a framework. And, they had as much of one as either of the other trilogies had. (Remember, Vader was not just “planned” but actually filmed as an impressive looking stooge for Tarkin. who was going to die in the final battle. A last minute effects shot and editing bay manipulation of a shot in his TIE’s cockpit set up his escape. Also, he wasn’t Luke’s father until Leigh Brackett floated the idea during the writing of ESB, and not finalized until the script of RotJ, but left as a possible deception.).

33 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

JJ had to try and cram 2 movies into one because where RJ left things painted them into a corner...

He didn’t “have” to do anything. He chose to. But TLJ left him plenty to work with. Rather than painting him into a corner, it gave him a mostly blank canvas to work with: a small ragtag Resistance group to fight an oppressive first order; a young, idealistic would-be Jedi; a roguish pilot positioned for leadership; hope reignited in both the Resistance and the galaxy thanks to Luke’s sacrifice (the legend of which even makes its way to enslaved children in the far reaches of the galaxy). Yeah, there’s nowhere to go with that.

41 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

My problem is the Sequel Trilogy feel like a a story where 2 story tellers are fighting about where the move was going to go.

The only conflict in direction appears to have come after Johnson’s involvement. Where he went with the story wasn’t at odds with anything Abrams and Kasdan presented in TFA, nor with anything established in the two trilogies prior. But, upon replacing Trevorrow, I would certainly agree that Abrams seemed dead set on invalidating what TLJ did, and rather than focusing on a story, he and Terrio chose to hang IX on a series of fun but hollow nostalgia beats. In TFA, Abrams (and Kasdan) gave us a nice appetizer. In TLJ, Johnson gave us a well-prepared entree (although it wasn’t to some people’s taste). Then came the dessert course of TRoS, which was just vanilla ice cream: it’s fine enough, if a little bland and predictable, and a perfunctory reminder that, yeah, ya like ice cream.

49 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

What they needed was someone like Fiegi as producer.

A lot of people have bought into Kevin Feige’s claim of having the MCU’s overarching story all planned out, ever since 2008. (Much like Lucas has notoriously revised the behind-the-scenes story of Star Wars over the years; it took a lot of persuasion to allow the original opening crawl, without episode number or name to briefly appear in the Empire of Dreams documentary.) If we’re honest, though, Feige’s “plan” was, include a little Easter egg at the end of Iron Man. The movie was a success. So, the plan became let’s do more with other characters and connect them, then work towards a team up in a few years. Getting to Avengers, the plan became to tease Thanos, then work towards a bigger team up. Oh, and let’s retcon some of these individual McGuffins into a connected McGuffin to get there. Anyone who thinks the Marvel “plan” isn’t just a rough goal with the path modified and improvised as they go is kidding themselves.

I’m not saying that Feige isn’t doing a great job juggling that whole thing. As a lifelong fan of DC’s comics, I’ll see any Marvel movie before even thinking about a DC movie. (So, I can understand massive disappointment with a movie or movies you really wish you’d enjoyed. I’ll do a wall o’ text about that sometime. 😏) But MCU v Star Wars is apples and oranges.

53 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The Last Jedi is just where the story falls apart. Because it does not really fit the rest of the sequels very well.

If you mean it actually has some thought to its structure, story, and characterization beyond a series of, “Hey, you like Star Wars, right? Remember Star Wars? Have some Star Wars!” moments, I tend to agree.

If you mean that the narrative seems inconsistent with TFA, I disagree. As for TRoS, it doesn’t feel like it goes with either of them.

10 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Not really when the next movie is supposed to be the end of the trilogy and they killed the major bad guy in the second movie.

Kylo Ren wasn’t dead/

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Kylo Ren wasn’t dead/

Kylo is not the main bad guy. He may be the one the audience sees the most of. But he is not the main one. Just Like Palps is the main bad guy in the Prequels and OT. And Vader is the one the Protagonists mostly deal with and who they redeem.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Kylo is not the main bad guy. He may be the one the audience sees the most of. But he is not the main one. Just Like Palps is the main bad guy in the Prequels and OT. And Vader is the one the Protagonists mostly deal with and who they redeem.

Palpatine is the main antagonist of the PT.

Vader is the main antagonist of the OT.

Kylo is the main antagonist of the ST.

16 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

They Killed Snoke the main villain. The guy influencing Kylo and controlling the first order.. Yeah he is the main bad guy.

Are we back to this again? No, Snoke wasn’t the “main bad guy,” any more than Palpatine was in the OT. The “main bad guy,” or primary antagonist, is the one that causes the conflict that impedes the primary protagonist. The primary antagonist may have a superior, but that doesn’t make that superior more influential to the protagonist’s story.

By your measure here, for example, because Le Chiffre had superiors, he was not the primary antagonist of Casino Royale. (Didn’t Spectre reveal Blofeld to be behind it all? So I guess a character who wasn’t even in Casino Royale was the “main bad guy?”)

Or, if we want to keep it to Star Wars, Krennic wasn’t the primary antagonist of Rogue One. Tarkin was his superior, so maybe...no, Tarkin reported to the Emperor, so just like Casino Royale, I guess you’re saying a character who wasn’t even in the movie was the primary antagonist?

I wonder...does this odd determination of who the “main bad guy” is also extend to the “main good guy?”

If so, then Mon Mothma is the primary protagonist of the Original Trilogy, right? After all, she’s Luke’s ultimate boss.

5 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Are we back to this again? No, Snoke wasn’t the “main bad guy,” any more than Palpatine was in the OT. The “main bad guy,” or primary antagonist, is the one that causes the conflict that impedes the primary protagonist. The primary antagonist may have a superior, but that doesn’t make that superior more influential to the protagonist’s story.

By your measure here, for example, because Le Chiffre had superiors, he was not the primary antagonist of Casino Royale. (Didn’t Spectre reveal Blofeld to be behind it all? So I guess a character who wasn’t even in Casino Royale was the “main bad guy?”)

Or, if we want to keep it to Star Wars, Krennic wasn’t the primary antagonist of Rogue One. Tarkin was his superior, so maybe...no, Tarkin reported to the Emperor, so just like Casino Royale, I guess you’re saying a character who wasn’t even in the movie was the primary antagonist?

Who is the one giving orders to Kylo? Who was giving orders to Darth Vader? Who did Darth Vader need to defeat to redeem himself? Who created the situation on Naboo for his benefit? Who set up the Clone Armies and the Seperatist Armies to creat a war for his own benefit?

Oh! I’ve got another one!

Whether TV series or movie, the voice on the tape recorder is the primary protagonist of Mission: Impossible. That’s where the team gets their orders, after all.

The Simpsons gets weird, though—since Homer works for Mr Burns, does that make Homer a secondary bad guy, or Burns the main good guy?

2 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Oh! I’ve got another one!

Whether TV series or movie, the voice on the tape recorder is the primary protagonist of Mission: Impossible. That’s where the team gets their orders, after all.

The Simpsons gets weird, though—since Homer works for Mr Burns, does that make Homer a secondary bad guy, or Burns the main good guy?

I get it you dont get my point. no answer my questions in the last post.

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Who is the one giving orders to Kylo? Who was giving orders to Darth Vader? Who did Darth Vader need to defeat to redeem himself?

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Who created the situation on Naboo for his benefit? Who set up the Clone Armies and the Seperatist Armies to creat a war for his own benefit?

No one said Palpatine wasn’t the primary antagonist of the prequels. In fact, they’ve specifically said he was.

That’s not the OT, though.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

I get it you dont get my point. no answer my questions in the last post.

Well, I was typing that reply as you posted, so....

(Not that you’ve answered the half dozen or so times I’ve asked about the relevance of knowing Snoke’s backstory....)