2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

LITERALLY cratered? As in, there's now a hole caused by the impact of the toy sales?

Any time I have an excuse to share this clip, I take it.

49 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Given that many of your examples are contradictory to each other and/or the definitions that you've given, I'm confident in sticking with mercurial.

But, then, that can happen when it's a personally defined and applied term like that. It's fine.

It's just next to impossible for anyone else to apply in the same manner you do.

For example, my wife and I use the term, "Nice truck." (A shortened version of the phrase, "Nice truck. Sorry to hear about your small...lightsaber." 😉). I'd be hard pressed to give you an adequate definition of a "nice truck" that covers all the variables. We've said, "Nice truck," about some elaborately modified pick ups, and about some much less so, and some other factors can play into it.

But we know a "nice truck" when we see it.

Just like you know your "main bad guy" when you see it.

(Honestly, though...I'm sincerely curious about the "main bad guy(s)" in the Craig Bond movies. Does each one have a separate "main bad guy," or is it Blofeld, despite the relative lateness of his introduction?)

I cant tell you i havent watched them in ages. Thanos is the best example.

He is not the antagonist in any of the marvel movies till infinity war. Yet if you werr to kill him when we first saw him much of the marvel movies would not happen. Thanos is the root from whih most of the problems stem from.

If you were to kill Palpatimr when we first see him in the phantom menace would Anew Hope happen? Clearly in a new palps is not the Antagonist. But if Palpatine died in the Phantom Menace Vader never exists.

Ok, I’m sitting up waaaay too late tonight, and admittedly circling back around to something.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

It comes from looking at how characters interact in the movie. The one pulling the strings is inportant and often the story woryhy problem doesnt stop just because the antagonist is defeated. For example defeating Loki didnt solve the problem. Thanos was still working his goal.

This doesn’t jive with some of the examples you’ve given.

Fir example, you say Hitler (a character who doesn’t even appear in the movie) is the “main bad guy” of Captain America: The First Avenger. But the “story worthy problem” of the movie is the Red Skull obtaining and weaponizing the Tesseract, not World War II; World War II is the setting, not the story. The Skull, in fact, rebels from Hitler’s service, and targets (among other cities) Berlin with his Tesseract-powered weapons. Defeating the Red Skull stops the “story worthy problem” of a would-be world conqueror with cosmically powered weapons. Conversely, bypassing the Red Skull and defeating Hitler does not stop that “story worthy problem.” The Skull has left the Third Reich’s service with Hydra as his personal army, with his own plans of conquest. If he is ignored in favor of Hitler, he successfully launches the strike that Cap stops at the climax. By your metric above, the Red Skull is “the main bad guy.”

Likewise, the “story worthy problem” of Avengers is Loki’s invasion of Earth, backed by the Chitauri, with the intent to rule the planet. (This is consistent with Loki’s motivations in his previous appearance to this point: he wants to rule.) Defeating Loki quite demonstrably stops the “story worthy problem” of that movie. (Particularly since “Thanos working his goal” wasn’t even a thing yet. Because if it was, he clearly didn’t think it through. If “working his goal” is to gather the Infinity Stones, why give one up to a pawn?) Also by your metric above, Loki is clearly the “main bad guy” of Avengers.

In Age of Ultron, the “story worthy problem” is Ultron gaining sentience and trying to “secure” the world by exterminating all life. Thanos has nothing to do with this “story worthy problem,” but you’ve said he’s the “main bad guy,” when clearly that role is filled by Ultron, as stopping him ends the “story worthy problem.” Although doing so creates the Sokovia Accords and leads to a “story worthy problem” for Captain America: Civil War. But, apparently, by your parameters above, neither Zemo nor even Thunderbolt Ross are the “main bad guy” of that one...Ultron is, because his actions caused the “story worthy problem.”

OK. I think I’m through with trying to wrap my brain around this mental pretzel tonight. I need to pass out and wake back up in about 4 hours.

Peace.

You (Daeglan) are constantly confusing meta with story.

(In fact I don’t think you do. I believe you actually have long seen the error in your logic, but are unable to say you are wrong about something.)

Yeah, it's a mistake to assume good faith here.

6 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Wow. You are working really to intentianally not get my point. I cant help you if you actively choose not to get the poi t i am trying to make.

Yeah, about that...

Either it's you that isn't getting your point, or you explained your point exceedingly poorly.

3 hours ago, Daeglan said:

If you were to kill Palpatimr when we first see him in the phantom menace would Anew Hope happen? Clearly in a new palps is not the Antagonist. But if Palpatine died in the Phantom Menace Vader never exists.

You probably still would have gotten psychotically evil Anakin. The Jedi council's complete lack of human empathy were a much bigger contribution to his fall than anything Palpatine ever did.

16 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You repeatedly make personal attacks rather then address my arguments. It is a logical fallacy you keep committing.

Thats the problems with this troll horde, they suck you in into their weird cult like mental gymnastics and let you squander your time. My advice is, just ignore them, they are not interested in honest debates and parrot every logical idiocy the so called Lucasfilm story group puts out, contradicting themselves very often, but who cares. These are the new SW fans KK was looking for and which she deserves, those same weird Reylos who send death threats to Adam Driver's wife. They never respond to your points and will always resort to ad hominem attacks when their logic fail.

Save your time and energy and leave them to their circle ****, just ignore them. 😉

5 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

Thats the problems with this troll horde, they suck you in into their weird cult like mental gymnastics and let you squander your time.

What mental gymnastics? Who here has been applying a self-made term whose provided definition(s) shifts and moves, and is applied inconsistently?

6 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

My advice is, just ignore them, they are not interested in honest debates

If I weren’t, I wouldn’t have spent so long trying to understand this whole “main bad guy” thing.

8 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

and parrot every logical idiocy the so called Lucasfilm story group puts out,

If that’s what you call noting what was on screen, then...ok.

9 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

contradicting themselves very often

Such as...? Would that be contradicting ourselves more or less often than in the application of the “main bad guy” definition?

11 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

These are the new SW fans KK was looking for and which she deserves

Saw the original in ‘77, at 7. Saw each upon their initial release. I’m “new.”

13 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

those same weird Reylos who send death threats to Adam Driver's wife

Death threats are never cool, regardless of who they come from. But, not part of the “Reylo” community, I can’t speak to the validity of your claim.

15 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

They never respond to your points

We’ve responded quite directly to his points. With very few exceptions by some, sticking with information straight from the movie(s) being discussed. (Allowing, of course, for digression to movies outside the Star Wars franchise to draw examples for some aspects)

Look, Daeglan’s not a bad guy. We’ve had great discussions in other threads. One or more movies in a series that he otherwise enjoyed just didn’t land for him. Which is perfectly fine. Disappointing for him, maybe, but fine and fair. It just wasn’t what he was hoping to see. That doesn’t mean the movie is inherently flawed. It doesn’t have to indicate poor skill or malicious intent on the part of the filmmakers. It just means it wasn’t his thing.

That’s all anyone is saying.

Have a good one.

Yeah, I have a degree in Film and a degree in Narrative Game Design, work in the industry, and never have I heard "protagonist/antagonist" and "main good guy/main bad guy" utilized in the way Daeglan describes.

Ah Darthdude Is back to throw some fuel on the fire. Big surprise.

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I cant tell you i havent watched them in ages. Thanos is the best example.

Well, you’d be wrong there, too.

While I can’t recall the last time I went through an honest-to-goodness start-to-finish marathon (at this point, that’s a pretty daunting prospect, and would take multiple sittings...and even longer if the tie-in episodes from the first couple seasons of Agents of SHIELD are thrown in the mix), but hardly a week goes by without a Marvel movie or two running in the house.

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

He is not the antagonist in any of the marvel movies till infinity war. Yet if you werr to kill him when we first saw him much of the marvel movies would not happen. Thanos is the root from whih most of the problems stem from.

They absolutely could. There’s no reason that it has to be Thanos that puts the Chitauri under Loki. Marvel has no shortage of cosmic characters to pull from to accomplish this.

It doesn’t have to be the Mind Stone that serves as the basis for Ultron’s sentience or Vision’s creation. It wasn’t involved with either in the comics. Whedon has gone on record as being unhappy with the requirement to tie the story into unrelated elements such as the Infinity Stones. This would suggest that the script did not initially link either being’s creation to the Mind Stone.

Ronan was already searching for the Power Stone himself. When Quill stole it, he faces Ronan’s forces, not Thanos. Thanos really just serves to get Gamora on the board, but that doesn’t require his presence or for Ronan to work for Thanos. After all, Gunn already modified Drax’s vendetta (in the comics, against Thanos) to be against Ronan (before shifting it back to Thanos at the end). Easy enough to bring Gamora in a different way.

Thanos is, essentially, grafted on to most of the movies pre-Infinity War, a subplot not impacting any given movie’s actual story. So, I must respectfully disagree that he is the “main bad guy” of any of those films, particularly in light of your explanation that, in order to be the “main bad guy,” they must be the character to defeat in order to end the “story worthy problem.”

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

If you were to kill Palpatimr when we first see him in the phantom menace would Anew Hope happen? Clearly in a new palps is not the Antagonist. But if Palpatine died in the Phantom Menace Vader never exists.

So...he’s the “main bad guy” of movies from 1977, 1980, and 1983 because of the story in a movie from 1999? I don’t recall being given that secret decoder ring when seeing the originals in the theater. It’s Blofeld all over again. At least the Emperor was mentioned in Star Wars and had a brief appearance in Empire. That’s more than Blofeld. I must respectfully disagree with your determination that the Emperor is the “main bad guy” of movies he doesn’t participate in.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Well, you’d be wrong there, too.

While I can’t recall the last time I went through an honest-to-goodness start-to-finish marathon (at this point, that’s a pretty daunting prospect, and would take multiple sittings...and even longer if the tie-in episodes from the first couple seasons of Agents of SHIELD are thrown in the mix), but hardly a week goes by without a Marvel movie or two running in the house.

They absolutely could. There’s no reason that it has to be Thanos that puts the Chitauri under Loki. Marvel has no shortage of cosmic characters to pull from to accomplish this.

It doesn’t have to be the Mind Stone that serves as the basis for Ultron’s sentience or Vision’s creation. It wasn’t involved with either in the comics. Whedon has gone on record as being unhappy with the requirement to tie the story into unrelated elements such as the Infinity Stones. This would suggest that the script did not initially link either being’s creation to the Mind Stone.

Ronan was already searching for the Power Stone himself. When Quill stole it, he faces Ronan’s forces, not Thanos. Thanos really just serves to get Gamora on the board, but that doesn’t require his presence or for Ronan to work for Thanos. After all, Gunn already modified Drax’s vendetta (in the comics, against Thanos) to be against Ronan (before shifting it back to Thanos at the end). Easy enough to bring Gamora in a different way.

Thanos is, essentially, grafted on to most of the movies pre-Infinity War, a subplot not impacting any given movie’s actual story. So, I must respectfully disagree that he is the “main bad guy” of any of those films, particularly in light of your explanation that, in order to be the “main bad guy,” they must be the character to defeat in order to end the “story worthy problem.”

So...he’s the “main bad guy” of movies from 1977, 1980, and 1983 because of the story in a movie from 1999? I don’t recall being given that secret decoder ring when seeing the originals in the theater. It’s Blofeld all over again. At least the Emperor was mentioned in Star Wars and had a brief appearance in Empire. That’s more than Blofeld. I must respectfully disagree with your determination that the Emperor is the “main bad guy” of movies he doesn’t participate in.

So now you are arguing on the basis of could have happened. When I am looking at what did happen and who drove those events. Which smacks of you intentionally working to not understand my point.

The main protagonist of Charlie’s Angels is Charlie then?

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

The main protagonist of Charlie’s Angels is Charlie then?

yup intentionally missing my point doesnt make you smart

Just now, Daeglan said:

So now you are arguing on the basis of could have happened. When I am looking at what did happen and who drove those events.

No, I’m looking at story construction and character function within the story. That’s how the protagonist(s) and antagonist(s) are determined, and “main good/bad guy” isn’t a thing. As you’ve said, it’s your personal term and definition.

So, what does Thanos actually do in Avengers? He sits unseen while an underling berates Loki. Then turns to the camera after the credits making comics nerds like me lose our frakkin’ minds. But, by your application regarding the “story worthy problem,” then the “main bad guy” is, indeed, Loki, because defeating him stops the “story worthy problem” of the Chitauri invasion.

What does he do in Guardians? He assigns Gamora and Nebula to work with Ronan, who’s already chasing the Power Stone on his own. He glowers via holo when Ronan says he doesn’t need Thanos’ help and...backs down from Ronan by ending the call. The Guardians end the “story worthy problem” of the impending destruction of Xandar when they defeat Ronan.

What does he do in Age of Ultron? He grabs the Infinity Gsuntlet after the credits and isn’t seen for 2 more years. In the actual story, though, a sentient murder-bot attempts to bring about world peace by eliminating mankind...no people, no war. He’s going to drop a city onto the planet and create an extinction-level event. That’s a pretty “story worthy problem”...which is resolved by stopping Ultron, not Thanos.

(Yeah, Age of Ultron didn’t have a good, victorious hero shot , so we get Sokovia in the air. 😜)

My last post was made to illustrate that Thanos is not essential to these films’ stories...he’s not necessary for the “story worthy problems.” If he’s not vital to the story, I’d say it’s tough to make a case that he’s the “main bad guy.”

5 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

The main protagonist of Charlie’s Angels is Charlie then?

No, the Angels are the main protagonists.

Charlie is the “main good guy.”

(Nice one, BTW. So obvious that I didn’t even think of it. Bravo. 😁)

The career of Edward James Olmos Summarized—

Miami Vice - He’s the “main good guy” as Lt. Castillo, while Crockett and Tubbs get all the attention as the main protagonists.

Battlestar Galactica - He’s one of the main protagonists, but President Roslyn is the “main good guy,” because she’s the ultimate authority for the Colonials.

I think I’m starting to get the hang of this. But I’m still fuzzy about the “story worthy problem” connection.

Is the Force both the main good guy and main bad guy in Star Wars since ultimately Jedi and Sith both serve the Force? 🤔

*sees a thread about one of the new films*

*sees it has reached 18 pages in 7 days*

*pops head in, reads some of the most recent posts*

Yep, that's about what I was expecting.

*pops out again*

27 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

That gif made me cue up Black Tears on youtube.

10 minutes ago, Kualan said:

*sees a thread about one of the new films*

*sees it has reached 18 pages in 7 days*

*pops head in, reads some of the most recent posts*

Yep, that's about what I was expecting.

*pops out again*

A wiser man than me.

36 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

yup intentionally missing my point doesnt make you smart

It did make me funny.

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

It did make me funny.

True story.

I laughed.

10 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I cant tell you i havent watched them in ages. Thanos is the best example.

Oops. When I responded to this earlier, I totally misread it as “I can tell you haven’t watched them in ages,” thinking you were referring to the Marvel movies. On rereading just now, I realized you were saying you hadn’t sent the Bomd movies in a while.

Mea culpa.

Given your definitions of the “main bad guy,” I’d think it would be easy to say. Blofeld is revealed as the mastermind behind Le Chiffre, Greene, and Silva. Here’s the exchange:

Oberhauser: You came across me so many times and yet you never saw me. Le Chiffre, Greene, Silva...
James Bond: All dead.
Oberhauser: That's right. A nice pattern developed. You interfered in my world, I destroyed yours. Or did you think it was coincidence that all the women in your life ended up dead?

If the Emperor is the “main bad guy,” because he’s the proverbial man behind the curtain, wouldn’t that make Blofeld (here under his born name of Oberhauser) the “main bad guy” of three movies that didn’t even suggest he existed?