On 3/17/2020 at 6:34 AM, Vlad3theImpaler said:

I am puzzled by the inclusion of Ventress on a list of "likeable female heroes." I know she got some redemption later on, but wasn't the majority of her screen time as a villain (and not a particularly sympathetic one)?

Even her "brief" redemption arc makes her a way more intriguing kind of anti-hero, if you prefer that term, than Rey, who is actually rather an infallible bland plank of wood. She struggled a lot, had many flaws and lost massively (her whole clan among those losses).

I actually felt like rise of skywalker was the best of all the Star Wars movies, failing only in it's relation to the two previous movies and the cavalry charge scene, which you just know they thought would be cool, but only came off as entirely ridiculous.

Rise of Skywalker was the first Star Wars movie in which the relationship of the two protagonists was actually a vibrant, healthy part of the movie. Contrast that with Han and Leia's relationship from the original trilogy.. First of all, that relationship wasn't even intended (apparently) from the beginning of the series. It ended up being developed through little quips between the main characters, but (to me at least) it never really felt like it was a focus of the original movies. (which could be a good thing, unless your trying to call your movie a "space opera"). Contrasted with Padme and Anakin's relationship in the prequals.. well.. all I need to do is mention "sand" and Star Wars fans begin to suffer from PTSD.. the relationship in that movie was focused on way too much, and it got in the way of the movie (which I think we should all be thankful for. I mean there are so many bad things in the prequals, it's really hard to lock in on just one.)

In Rise of Skywalker it seems like Rey and Ben's relationship had about the right amount of focus and was actually a driving force behind the story.. the problem being that the previous movies didn't really set up that relationship very well. I tRoS I can see that Ben and Rey are in love, but the previous movies did little to explain how they got there. As I think about it now, it seems like episodes VII and VIII were trying to "hint at" a developing relationship between Rey and Ben while not really addressing it's "creepily weird" beginning.. actually, in a lot of ways the whole relationship is "creepily weird" (is it wrong that this may actually be what makes it feel like the most realistic star wars relationship to me?)

Consider that Rey and Ben first meet when Kylo Kidnaps Rey and takes her in for interrogation. Kylo then fails to get information from Rey and allows her to escape. Rey watches Ben kill his father and later they have a duel.. so that's their first date. The two main problems with this are, first I'm not entirely convinced that the story was planned out enough for anyone to actually consider how Rey and Ben might actually go through some sort of courtship; and second there is no point at which anyone in the movies even suggests that Ben might be taking it easy on Rey because he's smitten with her, or that she has some sort of weird fascination with the guy who kidnapped and interrogated her. Normally I would be fine with not explicitly stating that a relationship is developing, but in the case of such an unusual and potentially toxic relationship, I feel like it's a bit of a stretch for writers to think that fans would make that assumption.

The Last Jedi does little to rectify the relationship flaw from episode VII. It's a little weird that Rey is in a link with Ben and she sees him naked.. she just asks him to cover up.. presumably she could have done something herself to not have to see him naked.. turn around or close her eyes.. maybe just imagined him with clothes on if it's a mind-link/hallucination kind of thing.. so I think that's meant to be a little hint that Rey is attracted to Ben, but again given the weird nature of their relationship, hints are not enough. Rey eventually does make the conscious decision to go meet Ben on Snope's ship for their second date.. you know, the date in which the two of them actually kill Ben's master before massacring a room full of red-clad samurai.. So Rey must at least have developed some trust for the guy who is literally trying to kill anyone he's ever loved, but then they immediately have a spat, Rey flies off, and Ben orders his entire tie-fighter contingent to try to kill her while he focuses on trying to kill his mother and uncle. Then the movie ends in, what I think most of us would assume is, a bad place for the relationship. (but hey, I can honestly say I've never sent my tie-fighter contingent to kill my girlfriend.. so maybe it works.)

So yeah.. Given that the romance stems from episodes VII and VIII, it may seem somewhat of a Paradox that Episode IX may actually be the most Romantic/Dramatic Star Wars movie and that it managed to do so without sacrificing action. On the other hand, the previous movies had introduced characters that basically had no role in the story of Skywalker, so I think tRoS kinda struggled with what to do with those characters.

Now I get that some people will always find ways to suspend their suspension of disbelief (come on folks, it's a movie, not a science documentary), but I really do feel like the only major flaw in The Rise of Skywalker is that it's tied to two such horrible movies. They really should have planned all of the movies out from the beginning with the main story from The Rise Of Skywalker being the end goal.

11 hours ago, DarthDude said:

Even her "brief" redemption arc makes her a way more intriguing kind of anti-hero, if you prefer that term, than Rey, who is actually rather an infallible bland plank of wood. She struggled a lot, had many flaws and lost massively (her whole clan among those losses).

I completely disagree with that assessment, but I'm going to leave it at that, because I don't get the impression that trying to convince anyone in this thread is going to be a productive use of my time or yours.

10 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

I actually felt like rise of skywalker was the best of all the Star Wars movies, failing only in it's relation to the two previous movies and the cavalry charge scene, which you just know they thought would be cool, but only came off as entirely ridiculous.

Rise of Skywalker was the first Star Wars movie in which the relationship of the two protagonists was actually a vibrant, healthy part of the movie. Contrast that with Han and Leia's relationship from the original trilogy.. First of all, that relationship wasn't even intended (apparently) from the beginning of the series. It ended up being developed through little quips between the main characters, but (to me at least) it never really felt like it was a focus of the original movies. (which could be a good thing, unless your trying to call your movie a "space opera"). Contrasted with Padme and Anakin's relationship in the prequals.. well.. all I need to do is mention "sand" and Star Wars fans begin to suffer from PTSD.. the relationship in that movie was focused on way too much, and it got in the way of the movie (which I think we should all be thankful for. I mean there are so many bad things in the prequals, it's really hard to lock in on just one.)

In Rise of Skywalker it seems like Rey and Ben's relationship had about the right amount of focus and was actually a driving force behind the story.. the problem being that the previous movies didn't really set up that relationship very well. I tRoS I can see that Ben and Rey are in love, but the previous movies did little to explain how they got there. As I think about it now, it seems like episodes VII and VIII were trying to "hint at" a developing relationship between Rey and Ben while not really addressing it's "creepily weird" beginning.. actually, in a lot of ways the whole relationship is "creepily weird" (is it wrong that this may actually be what makes it feel like the most realistic star wars relationship to me?)

Consider that Rey and Ben first meet when Kylo Kidnaps Rey and takes her in for interrogation. Kylo then fails to get information from Rey and allows her to escape. Rey watches Ben kill his father and later they have a duel.. so that's their first date. The two main problems with this are, first I'm not entirely convinced that the story was planned out enough for anyone to actually consider how Rey and Ben might actually go through some sort of courtship; and second there is no point at which anyone in the movies even suggests that Ben might be taking it easy on Rey because he's smitten with her, or that she has some sort of weird fascination with the guy who kidnapped and interrogated her. Normally I would be fine with not explicitly stating that a relationship is developing, but in the case of such an unusual and potentially toxic relationship, I feel like it's a bit of a stretch for writers to think that fans would make that assumption.

The Last Jedi does little to rectify the relationship flaw from episode VII. It's a little weird that Rey is in a link with Ben and she sees him naked.. she just asks him to cover up.. presumably she could have done something herself to not have to see him naked.. turn around or close her eyes.. maybe just imagined him with clothes on if it's a mind-link/hallucination kind of thing.. so I think that's meant to be a little hint that Rey is attracted to Ben, but again given the weird nature of their relationship, hints are not enough. Rey eventually does make the conscious decision to go meet Ben on Snope's ship for their second date.. you know, the date in which the two of them actually kill Ben's master before massacring a room full of red-clad samurai.. So Rey must at least have developed some trust for the guy who is literally trying to kill anyone he's ever loved, but then they immediately have a spat, Rey flies off, and Ben orders his entire tie-fighter contingent to try to kill her while he focuses on trying to kill his mother and uncle. Then the movie ends in, what I think most of us would assume is, a bad place for the relationship. (but hey, I can honestly say I've never sent my tie-fighter contingent to kill my girlfriend.. so maybe it works.)

So yeah.. Given that the romance stems from episodes VII and VIII, it may seem somewhat of a Paradox that Episode IX may actually be the most Romantic/Dramatic Star Wars movie and that it managed to do so without sacrificing action. On the other hand, the previous movies had introduced characters that basically had no role in the story of Skywalker, so I think tRoS kinda struggled with what to do with those characters.

Now I get that some people will always find ways to suspend their suspension of disbelief (come on folks, it's a movie, not a science documentary), but I really do feel like the only major flaw in The Rise of Skywalker is that it's tied to two such horrible movies. They really should have planned all of the movies out from the beginning with the main story from The Rise Of Skywalker being the end goal.

So the Disney Blu-Ray Club delivered about a week early (with a much bigger and more impressive swag box than we expected), so we rewatched tonight.

No worse...no better. I'm more curious about the special features.

Back to what sparked me creating the thread, though...I downloaded the audiobook last Tuesday when it dropped, but they started our office working from home last Monday. My audiobook listening is normally the drive to and from work, but now that's all of about 5 steps to get into the computer room, so I haven't even started it yet. From what Star Wars Explained has said, I'm most interested in seeing what the additional Leia content has to offer, since the novelization wasn't faced with the limitation of only being able to use material that was already filmed.