duplicate.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Also the fact we dont see the complaints we see about Rey with Ahsoka, Hera, Sabine, Tam means that the claim about misogyny is likely not accurate. And instead there is a problem with the writing.

To be fair, sabine knowing really a lot of things was a complaint in rebels, artist/bounty hunter/explosive expert/weapon scientist/elite soldier at 15 could stretch suspension of disbelief

I'm with you about the ST writing, the very fact that these debates exist means there was a problem with conveying the story. I am perpetually baffled at hose that deny there even was a divide among the audience

6 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

To be fair, sabine knowing really a lot of things was a complaint in rebels, artist/bounty hunter/explosive expert/weapon scientist/elite soldier at 15 could stretch suspension of disbelief

I'm with you about the ST writing, the very fact that these debates exist means there was a problem with conveying the story. I am perpetually baffled at hose that deny there even was a divide among the audience

I dont see nearly the amount of complaints with sabine.

Deny there was a divide all while arguing with thise on the other side of the divide...

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Because it damages a significant portion of the audience's willing suspension of disbelief.

Prove it.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The fact that we even have these arguments demonstrate things weren't done well.

No, the fact that we have these discussions proves that some people didn’t care for how things were done. There’s a difference.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

When fans are fighting like this it is not a sign of a well written story.

Prove this is an objective fact and not a matter of conflicting tastes.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I have never seen arguments like this regarding marvel.

You’re not looking in the right places, then. I’ve seen plenty. From tirades about how the MCU’s take on Spider-Man has robbed him of his agency by turning him into Iron Boy and saddling him with daddy issues about Tony Stark to how Ragnarok turned Thor into a bumbling comedian, to the horrible so-called anti-male agenda of Captain Marvel (and claims of misandry leveled at Brie Larson), to - believe it or not - how Endgame was a hollow incoherent mess. Both (Best Picture nominee) Black Panther and Captain Marvel were targets of similar Rotten Tomatoes “bombing” campaigns (which, coupled with the campaign against TLJ, is what finally made RT acknowledge the vulnerabilities in their system) and online trolls screaming about their “SJW agendas.” And that’s without factoring in how the die-hard fans of the DC movies will rip on any Marvel movie as “juvenile kiddie joke-fests.”

If you’ve truly missed all of that (and more) noise, then count yourself lucky.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

I dont see these fights regarding the clone wars cartoon. I dont seen these fights about the Mandalorian. I dont see these fights about Rebels cartoon. I dont see these fights about the resistance cartoon.

Never mind their smaller audiences, you didn’t see the proverbial villagers with torches and pitchforks when Clone Wars launched, wanting Dave Filoni’s head because Ahsoka even existed? The people railing about how she was the worst character ever, as bad or worse than Jar-Jar? How giving Anakin a Padawan violated everything that had been established about him? Still today, you’ll find people launching into rants about how the Mortis arc and Yoda’s final arc in season 6 go against everything that has been established about how the Force works.

The torches and pitchforks came out again because Rebels was even being made, as it meant the premature end of Clone Wars . It was derided as being too much of a “kids’ show.” Ezra was deemed a “Marty Stu.” People were up in arms that Kanan and Ezra were Jedi working with the Alliance, because it made Luke less unique. And they screamed that it didn’t make sense that none of these characters were around in the OT if they were such a good asset to the Rebellion. Hyperspace-capable space whales! And the most egregious sin against Star Wars it committed (in their eyes): the World Between Worlds (another “goes against everything we know about how the Force works” but with the added bonus of, “Great, now Star Wars has time travel. They can just go back and undo anything they want!”).

Resistance does seem to get a pass. I’d guess because most who would go off about it just roll their eyes and call it a “stupid kids’ show.”

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

That tells me there is a significant problem with how the Sequel trilogy was handled. It needlessly divided fans.
That is an Objective fact.

That this is your conclusion is definitely a fact. However, your exclusion of similar reactions to an unrelated franchise or other entries in this one , either through willfully exclusion or simply being unaware of them, clearly establishes that your conclusion is not, after all, an objective fact.

In fact, looking at Clone Wars (Ahsoka in particular) and Rebels with the 20/20 hindsight of how they’re regarded now vs the initial reaction to them strengthens the notion that the response to the sequels in general and TLJ specifically is a matter of personal taste and preference with a strong possibility of mellowing over time. Just like it has with the prequels.

Assuming, that is, that the cynical grognards online who realized they could monetize stoking anger at movies tap out the topic of the sequels and move on to something else.

8 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Also the fact we dont see the complaints we see about Rey with Ahsoka, Hera, Sabine, Tam means that the claim about misogyny is likely not accurate. And instead there is a problem with the writing.

We don’t see those kinds of complaints about Ahsoka...anymore. See above regarding how the audience reacted to her for the first couple of seasons. But, rather than swing at this obvious dodge, I’ll just point out that I’ve never said that anyone who doesn’t care for Rey’s character is clearly doing so due to misogyny. So, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Deny there was a divide all while arguing with thise on the other side of the divide...

Is more than one person posting as Daeglan?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

I dont see nearly the amount of complaints with sabine.

Deny there was a divide all while arguing with thise on the other side of the divide...

They did exist and while I don’t agree with all of them, I agreed her knowing so much and having done so much in 15 years was stretching (not breaking) suspension of disbelief a little

as for the deniers, yes I encounter these still regularly, their arguments to deny it always comes to « vocal minority », « not representative »...etc

14 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

their arguments to deny it always comes to « vocal minority », « not representative »...etc

Well those are solid.

3 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Well those are solid.

Can’t say if you’re sarcastic or not w/o clarification

in case you aren’t, given all the **** going in media and net these days, it’s obvious there isn’t « just » a minor vocal not representative faction

Is there a reason you lost the “vocal” part preceeding “minority”?

I am sure you feel that, given all the **** going in media and net these days, antivaxxers are also not a minority in the vaccination debate?

17 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Is there a reason you lost the “vocal” part preceeding “minority”?

32 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

In case you aren’t, given all the **** going in media and net these days, it’s obvious there isn’t « just » a minor vocal not representative faction

I didn’t ?

20 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I am sure you feel that, given all the **** going in media and net these days, antivaxxers are also not a minority in the vaccination debate?

Considering according to wellcome trust, they comprise for example 9% of China, 8% of Austria and 7% of Japan, they still are a minority but have alarmingly high numbers ?

my point wasn’t that they weren’t a minority (no one ever made a census on sw opinions), but dismissing their opinions because they are a minority made no sense. (And remember we’re talking about movie opinions, not scientific facts. There’s no scientific proof the sequels are good, it’s critical opinion, trying to compare the 2 was cheap)

13 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

I didn’t ?

My bad!

13 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

trying to compare the 2 was cheap

Trying to show that a vocal minority can indeed cause a ruckus online and in the media by providing an example of another minority causing a ruckus online and in the media is cheap how exactly?

7 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

I'm with you about the ST writing, the very fact that these debates exist means there was a problem with conveying the story.

No, it simply proves that some people just didn’t care for it. Which happens with every movie ever made. In this case, we happen to be talking about a franchise with a (very) passionate fan base, so those reactions - good or bad - get dialed up to 11 within that group.

7 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

am perpetually baffled at hose that deny there even was a divide among the audience

I don’t recall anyone here making such a claim. Be definition, a difference of opinion would be a “divide.” I just don’t think it’s as stark as the online grognards who have monetized dissatisfaction with entertainment by exacerbating it would have us think. Click bait “news” that thrives on controversy loves that take and runs with it.

14 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

but dismissing their opinions because they are a minority made no sense.

No one would do so if the argument wasn’t made that the st “caused a divide in fandom” or that “a majority of people hate TLJ”. It is only then that comes up.

18 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I don’t recall anyone here making such a claim. Be definition, a difference of opinion would be a “divide.”

I might have said a couple of times that I don’t believe the number of naysayers is big enough for it to be considered a divide.

7 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

I might have said a couple of times that I don’t believe the number of naysayers is big enough for it to be considered a divide.

Fair enough. And, in spirit, I agree.

Are there people who didn’t enjoy one or more of the sequels? Of course. Law of averages says there has to be.

Is the fan base really so fractured that it spells doom and gloom and the end of the franchise? Nah.

But there are some people out there who’ve realized they can make money off of peddling that idea, and it’s galvanized those on either side of the discussion who are actually willing to engage with one another. Some take cheap shots, and some - like most of us here, I’d say - are willing to discuss it like rational human beings. Even if we get passionate about it.

4 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

« a majority of people hate TLJ”. It is only then that comes up.

I haven’t said anything like this, just that not everyone likes it and a significant portion of the audience doesn’t

6 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

No one would do so if the argument wasn’t made that the st “caused a divide in fandom”

If a significant portion of the fandom didn’t like it, by definition there was a divide. Though I don’t agree with everything that goes on r/saltierthancrait, its very creation due to redditors feeling they couldn’t criticize the sequels on r/starwars means that there is a significant segment doesn’t agree (and since not everyone is a Redditor, it’s only a fraction)

yes they are a minority, but that doesn’t mean their opinion is irrelevant and should be ignored

13 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

My bad!

Trying to show that a vocal minority can indeed cause a ruckus online and in the media by providing an example of another minority causing a ruckus online and in the media is cheap how exactly?

It’s cheap because you’re trying to relate a movie opinion to a scientific fact. It’s a fallacy. If I wanted to play this game, i could point to you that Pre ww2 , most national policies were anti Jew. So that must have meant the Nazi were right and the minority could be safely ignored ? No? But the protesters were a minority

on opinions, the majority isn’t always right. Proven scientific facts are another matter (hilarious fact : Nazi refused Einstein’s theory of relativity because he was Jewish)

29 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

It’s cheap because you’re trying to relate a movie opinion to a scientific fact.

You seem to miss the point.
I illustrated how a vocal minority can dominate the discourse by showing another well known example of that thing happening. I never compared the substance of their arguments because that would have been cheap (and also completely idiotic.)

I am therefore not going deeper down this rabbit hole.

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

You seem to miss the point.
I illustrated how a vocal minority can dominate the discourse by showing another well known example of that thing happening. I never compared the substance of their arguments because that would have been cheap (and also completely idiotic.)

I am therefore not going deeper down this rabbit hole.

and I showed you how the majority can be wrong despite ignoring the vocal minority

but I agree, let's not go further into specious arguments

10 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

and I showed you how the majority can be wrong despite ignoring the vocal minority

No you Godwinned the discussion and stepped away from your earlier point that there was no being right in matters of opinion.

3 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

No you Godwinned the discussion and stepped away from your earlier point that there was no being right in matters of opinion.

and I am wrong?

you gave a specious argument, I gave the most specious argument I could find, I could also mention the inquisition, the crusades, or any number of examples as stupid as yours

Again: you missed the point by a mile.

5 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

and I am wrong?

I don’t think you are. Hence my surprise when you talked about majorities being wrong about things.

Maybe you wouldn’t have overreacted so much if I had chosen Flat Earthers as the minority that have made an impact way bigger than there size/proportion should allow for?

8 minutes ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Maybe you wouldn’t have overreacted so much if I had chosen Flat Earthers as the minority that have made an impact way bigger than there size/proportion should allow for?

you're still trying to associate those that have a negative opinion on the sequels with science illiterates that deny scientific truth, thereby subtly associating those that think it's good with scientific truth

while it's all a matter of critical opinion

how about that for missing the point

You are still pointing at the content when it is the reach I am trying to relate to you. I understand that people who don’t like the st or tlj or bloody Home Alone are not on the same level of idiocy as those nutjobs. I actually don’t believe they are orn any level Of idiocy at all (although if you don’t like Home Alone...)

However the current media climate allows for fringe groups to feel like they matter a heck of a lot more than they do and, yes, I believe that the people so invested in hating a movie (or series of movies) are indeed a fringe group.