13 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Nor did the sequels. Using the example Tramp provided that prompted your response, while I own the novelization of TFA, I’ve never read it. Yet I’ve never had a problem following the movie; I had no problem accepting a newly-awakened Force sensitive with an innate talent trying things that she’d heard the fabled Luke Skywalker could do when she was in a jam. When I first heard about the mind transfer (or whatever we want to call it), I just shrugged and said, “Huh. So that’s what they say happened,” and went on about my business.

Then there’s the example that I myself used in starting this thread. I just find it to be a complicated and unnecessary layer. I don’t know what kind of lead time Rae Carson had in writing the novelization, but it seems like it may have been a direct reaction to people being ooked out at the notion of Palpatine having...relations.

The supplemental material is icing, some of it adding flavor and depth, and some just puzzling. And which is which may depend on the person reading it.

Yeah, Star Wars has always been filled with throw-away lines or mentions that pepper the dialogue with world-building references, but never do much else with them. It's not a series that has ever really gone in-depth with explanations for very much. It was never about that.

Oddly, I think it's part of its charm.

36 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I mean, that's an opinion, not a fact. So, yeah.

"Huge chunk of audience not liking it" doesn't track with a $1.3 billion dollar return - because it almost assuredly has repeat viewings in there.

Wrong since to say you dislike stuff you have to watch it 1st, so pay 1st

38 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

You don't for the ST, either.

Not everyone does, but since tfa spawned many « Rey is a Mary Sue » debates, not everyone doesn’t

4 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

Wrong since to say you dislike stuff you have to watch it 1st, so pay 1st

No, not wrong. Of course you have to watch it first - though with Star Wars, even that's not necessarily a guarantee, since there's a subsection of the internet that says they dislike things without ever seeing them because a woman or a PoC person is the main character or whatever else.

However, to get that kind of return, there are absolutely repeat viewings involved. I know people who saw TLJ 4 - 5 times in the theater. I myself saw it three times. I saw one person on a social media feed see it 9 times.

4 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

Not everyone does, but since tfa spawned many « Rey is a Mary Sue » debates, not everyone doesn’t

This has nothing to do with needing a visual dictionary.

1 hour ago, Mistervimes said:

Because they released the toys in September and the sales fell off with the usual progression. Major financial news outlets covered this already .

2018-2019 sales of toys slumped 3% due to tariffs and the liquidation sales of Toys'R Us. All of this data was in the news and can be found easily.

Again, opinion does not equal empiricism.

Too bad the sales slumped way back when TLJ was released and never recovered.

45 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Nor did the sequels. Using the example Tramp provided that prompted your response, while I own the novelization of TFA, I’ve never read it. Yet I’ve never had a problem following the movie; I had no problem accepting a newly-awakened Force sensitive with an innate talent trying things that she’d heard the fabled Luke Skywalker could do when she was in a jam. When I first heard about the mind transfer (or whatever we want to call it), I just shrugged and said, “Huh. So that’s what they say happened,” and went on about my business.

Then there’s the example that I myself used in starting this thread. I just find it to be a complicated and unnecessary layer. I don’t know what kind of lead time Rae Carson had in writing the novelization, but it seems like it may have been a direct reaction to people being ooked out at the notion of Palpatine having...relations.

The supplemental material is icing, some of it adding flavor and depth, and some just puzzling. And which is which may depend on the person reading it.

Funny how no one has said the problem started with the Force Awakens. They say it started with The Last Jedi.

Someone implied it was the whole of the ST.

Just now, Daeglan said:

Too bad the sales slumped way back when TLJ was released and never recovered.

Read the articles. Toys were released in September. That is before TLJ was released. When the movie came out in December, the products had been in the market for over three months. That's why they slumped. This is not an opinion. This is market analysis. These are provable metrics used by businesses to plan strategy. Nothing you are saying is empirically provable. You state opinion as fact and provide not measurable metric to back up anything you are saying. Opinions are not facts. I do not care if you hate these movies. I care that you say things that you cannot prove and discount measurable fact-based evidence that contradicts your opinions.

2 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

Wrong since to say you dislike stuff you have to watch it 1st, so pay 1st

Well, as has been proven a multitude of times throughout the years (and not just about TLJ), you don’t have to (unless you want that decision to be better informed). But people do it all the time.

That is, in fact, part of RT’s self-admitted vulnerability: there’s no way to confirm that those rating a movie have actually seen it.

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Funny how no one has said the problem started with the Force Awakens. They say it started with The Last Jedi.

Funny how Tramp provided it as an example, and MB responded to that example....

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

No, not wrong. Of course you have to watch it first - though with Star Wars, even that's not necessarily a guarantee, since there's a subsection of the internet that says they dislike things without ever seeing them because a woman or a PoC person is the main character or whatever else.

However, to get that kind of return, there are absolutely repeat viewings involved. I know people who saw TLJ 4 - 5 times in the theater. I myself saw it three times. I saw one person on a social media feed see it 9 times.

This has nothing to do with needing a visual dictionary.

Because the problem started with the last Jedi. Not the Force Awakens. When they deviated for the rules regarding the force and refused to answer the legitimate questions people had about the state of the galaxy. Rian Johnson effectively gave a big middle finger to fans who wanted to know what the deal with Snole was. Where did thenfirst order come from. How is Rey so powerful? And so when those questions were ignored and we were told Rey is nobody...well that makes her appear to be a Mary Sue

8 minutes ago, Mistervimes said:

Read the articles. Toys were released in September. That is before TLJ was released. When the movie came out in December, the products had been in the market for over three months. That's why they slumped. This is not an opinion. This is market analysis. These are provable metrics used by businesses to plan strategy. Nothing you are saying is empirically provable. You state opinion as fact and provide not measurable metric to back up anything you are saying. Opinions are not facts. I do not care if you hate these movies. I care that you say things that you cannot prove and discount measurable fact-based evidence that contradicts your opinions.

That doesnt address the fact that sales never picked up even after the movie release. You know for xmas.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Rian Johnson effectively gave a big middle finger to fans who wanted to know what the deal with Snole was.

The Supreme Leader of the First Order, who’d manipulated Ben Solo. What more was necessary for the sequels’ story?

(“But people wanted his back story!” I’m sure they did. But that was no more essential to the story being told than Palpatine’s was in 77-83.)

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Where did thenfirst order come from.

The ashes of the Empire. It’s right there in TFA’s crawl. Were these same people asking, “Where did the Empire come from?” in 77? Doubtful. But...let’s say that knowing every little detail of how the First Order was formed and grew was indeed necessary to the story (which it wasn’t), wouldn’t providing that information be incumbent on...the person(s) who established them in the first place? That would be Abrams and Kasdan.

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

How is Rey so powerful?

Johnson did answer that one for you. “Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And so when those questions were ignored and we were told Rey is nobody...well that makes her appear to be a Mary Sue

How, exactly, would Snoke or the First Order’s back stories being untold contribute to Rey being a Mary Sue? And, if she’s one, so are Luke and Anakin. Where’s your vitriol for those characters?

3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Johnson did answer that one for you. “Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

Yeah, quite literally, the Force willed it so.

Rian answered a lot of questions - they may not have been answers you liked, which is fine, but they were answers nonetheless.

Just now, Daeglan said:

That doesnt address the fact that sales never picked up even after the movie release. You know for xmas.

Because the sales had already been made prior to release. Everything I am saying is in the hundreds of articles addressing the toy market during 2017-2019, but specifically addressed in the Bloomberg article. Hasbro had a bad marketing strategy and explains it. If you feel that your opinion is a fact, please provide a single metric to support it. This is a concept as old as Aristotle. When you are proven wrong by evidence, you concede the point and do not return to it or change the conditions of the discussion. I don't know why you are invested in this mythical financial failure of TLJ, but it is not a provable fact. If you feel that it is -- provide evidence or concede the point.

4 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

The Supreme Leader of the First Order, who’d manipulated Ben Solo. What more was necessary for the sequels’ story?

(“But people wanted his back story!” I’m sure they did. But that was no more essential to the story being told than Palpatine’s was in 77-83.)

The ashes of the Empire. It’s right there in TFA’s crawl. Were these same people asking, “Where did the Empire come from?” in 77? Doubtful. But...let’s say that knowing every little detail of how the First Order was formed and grew was indeed necessary to the story (which it wasn’t), wouldn’t providing that information be incumbent on...the person(s) who established them in the first place? That would be Abrams and Kasdan.

Johnson did answer that one for you. “Darkness rises, and light to meet it.”

How, exactly, would Snoke or the First Order’s back stories being untold contribute to Rey being a Mary Sue? And, if she’s one, so are Luke and Anakin. Where’s your vitriol for those characters?

Well except we had the return of the jedi where the Empire was defeated. So many wanted to know how the **** did we get to a point where the empire is effectively back. And your attitude oh we dont need to know is part of what causes bad reactions. Because for a very large chuck of fans they did need to know. Bbecause not knowing damaged their willing suspension of disbelief.

32 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, quite literally, the Force willed it so.

Rian answered a lot of questions - they may not have been answers you liked, which is fine, but they were answers nonetheless.

That would also be the same Force that called to Rey in Maz’s castle. Funny how TLJ followed up on one of those “burning questions” from TFA...while somehow (checks notes) ignoring it and giving the middle finger to the audience?

6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well except we had the return of the jedi where the Empire was defeated. So many wanted to know how the **** did we get to a point where the empire is effectively back. And your attitude oh we dont need to know is part of what causes bad reactions. Because for a very large chuck of fans they did need to know. Bbecause not knowing damaged their willing suspension of disbelief.

The First Order was based partly on ODESSA (real life plan the Nazis had to escape Europe) - and we have Neo-Nazis in the real world, and the First Order is basically just Neo-Imperials - Star Wars is fantastical, hence the actual military might and such being a thing they have.

Plus, the Empire may have been defeated yes, but not every single member of the Empire was destroyed. Easily logical that some of them fled and rebuilt using Imperial tech.

1 hour ago, MB -Fr- said:

the prequels may be skubtastic but in that regard they’re superior to sequels : you don’t need extra books to understand them

I have run into more than one fan online that didn't understand that the entire point of the Naboo invasion was Palpatine replacing Valorum. And even some that didn't get that Palpatine was Sidious.

And how do you need extra books to understand the sequels? I understand them just fine and have never read any of the books.

39 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Too bad the sales slumped way back when TLJ was released and never recovered.

That's just your basic post hoc ergo propter hoc phalacy.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Well except we had the return of the jedi where the Empire was defeated. So many wanted to know how the **** did we get to a point where the empire is effectively back.

Key word: “wanted.” Want =/= need.

As I mentioned before, though...let’s go with the idea that this information was vitally necessary to the sequels’ narrative. Why is all your anger about this information not being provided directed at Johnson & TLJ? Where’s the ire for Kasdan and Abrams just saying, “Here’s the successor to the Empire, the First Order?”

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

And your attitude oh we dont need to know is part of what causes bad reactions.

Me acknowledging in March 2020 that information (potentially interesting information, agreed) wasn’t vital to the narrative is responsible for some people throwing hissy fits in December of 2017 (and ever since)? I didn’t realize I had that kind of power.

8 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Because for a very large chunk of fans they did need to know. Bbecause not knowing damaged their willing suspension of disbelief.

They wanted to know. They didn’t need to. And it’s fine for them to want that information. I wouldn’t mind seeing some of it, too. But it wasn’t needed for the sequels’ narrative. Again, want =/= need. Sure, different things can break suspension of disbelief.

It’s impossible to account for everything that might do that for everyone. If some people are pulled out of a movie because of the lack of information that isn’t essential to the story, that isn’t necessarily a flaw of the movie. (The same can be said for inclusion of non-essential material. Personally, for example, I disconnected from Scream 3 for a good 30 minutes after an inconsequential cameo by two characters from another franchise that I find greatly annoying.)

7 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

They wanted to know. They didn’t need to. And it’s fine for them to want that information. I wouldn’t mind seeing some of it, too. But it wasn’t needed for the sequels’ narrative. Again, want =/= need. Sure, different things can break suspension of disbelief.

THEY SEE OUT OF THEIR WINDSHIELD!?! I NEED AN EXPLANATION FOR THAT!!! HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK!!?!!? THAT MOVIE MAKES NO SENSE!!!!

41 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Key word: “wanted.” Want =/= need.

As I mentioned before, though...let’s go with the idea that this information was vitally necessary to the sequels’ narrative. Why is all your anger about this information not being provided directed at Johnson & TLJ? Where’s the ire for Kasdan and Abrams just saying, “Here’s the successor to the Empire, the First Order?”

Me acknowledging in March 2020 that information (potentially interesting information, agreed) wasn’t vital to the narrative is responsible for some people throwing hissy fits in December of 2017 (and ever since)? I didn’t realize I had that kind of power.

They wanted to know. They didn’t need to. And it’s fine for them to want that information. I wouldn’t mind seeing some of it, too. But it wasn’t needed for the sequels’ narrative. Again, want =/= need. Sure, different things can break suspension of disbelief.

It’s impossible to account for everything that might do that for everyone. If some people are pulled out of a movie because of the lack of information that isn’t essential to the story, that isn’t necessarily a flaw of the movie. (The same can be said for inclusion of non-essential material. Personally, for example, I disconnected from Scream 3 for a good 30 minutes after an inconsequential cameo by two characters from another franchise that I find greatly annoying.)

Well if you break a persons willing suspension of disbelief then they DID NEED that information. Not everyone needed it but a very significant portion did need that information. And no amount of saying it isn't important changes the fact that it is important for a lot of people. The standard for willing suspension of disbelief is different for a cartoon than a sequel to a series of movies that have set a bar for what is expected.

So basically the movies needed to dumb it down? I get why it frustrates you then.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Well if you break a persons willing suspension of disbelief then they DID NEED that information. Not everyone needed it but a very significant portion did need that information. And no amount of saying it isn't important changes the fact that it is important for a lot of people.

Being “important to a lot of people” doesn’t inherently make it necessary for the narrative.

Tell us, to borrow an example that you’ve used, what part of Snoke’s history being told would have altered the trajectory of TFA’s or TLJ’s narrative? (And, if we assume that the brief Snoke reveal in TRoS was the intent from the start, the reveal that it’s been Palpatine all along is anti-climactic if we know it already.)

And if Snoke’s full background was so vital to the sequels, why didn’t Lucas stop Star Wars in its tracks to give us the Emperor’s background when he was mentioned in 77?

14 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The standard for willing suspension of disbelief is different for a cartoon than a sequel to a series of movies that have set a bar for what is expected.

Why?

Especially when that bar has been set to expect only what’s needed for the specific stories being told?

Just now, Nytwyng said:

Being “important to a lot of people” doesn’t inherently make it necessary for the narrative.

Tell us, to borrow an example that you’ve used, what part of Snoke’s history being told would have altered the trajectory of TFA’s or TLJ’s narrative? (And, if we assume that the brief Snoke reveal in TRoS was the intent from the start, the reveal that it’s been Palpatine all along is anti-climactic if we know it already.)

And if Snoke’s full background was so vital to the sequels, why didn’t Lucas stop Star Wars in its tracks to give us the Emperor’s background when he was mentioned in 77?

Why?

Especially when that bar has been set to expect only what’s needed for the specific stories being told?

Because before we didnt have movies before. the Prequels went BACK to fill in stuff. But the Sequels follow a known state of the galaxy and for many people having the empire reappear after they were defeated breaks their willing suspension of disbelief. No amount of you saying it doesnt matter changes the fact that it does matter for them. A good storyteller is aware of this and takes it into account and doesnt rail against fans who have this issue and instead make sure they cover how the galaxy got to the current state. The reason we dont have that issue with KOTOR type stories is hundreds and thousands of years time difference puts the story in its own reality as it were. where 30 years is close enough that many are going to want to know.