17 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Jyn being harder to run than Leia is true. Jyn being bad isn't. Infiltrate is a newb trap, which is where the stigma against Jyn and Pathfinders started from. It snowballed from there with Danger Sense being worthless for the first attack against the unit.

I personally prefer running Han as I prefer Han's consistent defense to Jyn's suppression dependent defense.

Duck and cover is a thing.... And by the second round of firing they have 3 suppression.... Also Han doesn't help you against pierce danger sense does. I'm fact it's one of the only way to deal with it.

I'm not even saying they are better or worse than Han they are completely different kits. But if we are comparing danger sense to uncanny luck let's look at all the factors.

14 minutes ago, Tirion said:

Duck and cover is a thing.... And by the second round of firing they have 3 suppression.... Also Han doesn't help you against pierce danger sense does. I'm fact it's one of the only way to deal with it.

I'm not even saying they are better or worse than Han they are completely different kits. But if we are comparing danger sense to uncanny luck let's look at all the factors.

I'm aware, however that still doesn't help the first round of firing. 1 extra white die means less than the bonus to cover from having the first supression. Danger sense, while helpful against pierce, is rarely enough to avoid damage from it especially from attacks with a pierce value higher than 1.

I never said it was better or worse either, rather that I prefer that Han has the full effect of his defense skills immediately rather than the suppression dependent skills of Jyn.

12 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I'm aware, however that still doesn't help the first round of firing. 1 extra white die means less than the bonus to cover from having the first supression. Danger sense, while helpful against pierce, is rarely enough to avoid damage from it especially from attacks with a pierce value higher than 1.

I never said it was better or worse either, rather that I prefer that Han has the full effect of his defense skills immediately rather than the suppression dependent skills of Jyn.

Maybe I don't understand your point, because it DOES help the first round of firing. It gives her light cover and an extra white die. After the attack she will have another white die.

2 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Maybe I don't understand your point, because it DOES help the first round of firing. It gives her light cover and an extra white die. After the attack she will have another white die.

The single extra white rarely does anything. The benefit from having light cover is better, but any unit with a training upgrade can benefit from that.

Cassian is what Jyn should have been priced at day 1 frankly. His command cards I feel are better than Jyn's, he is a more effective shooter than Jyn and he synergizes with K2SO and Pathfinders better than Jyn.

23 minutes ago, Uetur said:

Cassian is what Jyn should have been priced at day 1 frankly. His command cards I feel are better than Jyn's, he is a more effective shooter than Jyn and he synergizes with K2SO and Pathfinders better than Jyn.

I strongly disagree. Jyn does a few, but important things better. Namely being a courage 3 bubble, which is huge, and Jyn has the command upgrade for improvised/strict orders. Quick thinking is fantastic since she also has nimble and sharpshooter 1 is always nice and a good side-grade to marksman most of the time. Also while I personally don't care much for danger sense, Jyn has it far better than Cassian with an extra white and higher courage over him.

Cost wise, there isn't much difference between Jyn and Cassian. Cassian with his gun upgrade is 100, and wants both training upgrades filled. Jyn just wants duck and cover at the very least.

3 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

I strongly disagree. Jyn does a few, but important things better. Namely being a courage 3 bubble, which is huge, and Jyn has the command upgrade for improvised/strict orders. Quick thinking is fantastic since she also has nimble and sharpshooter 1 is always nice and a good side-grade to marksman most of the time. Also while I personally don't care much for danger sense, Jyn has it far better than Cassian with an extra white and higher courage over him.

Cost wise, there isn't much difference between Jyn and Cassian. Cassian with his gun upgrade is 100, and wants both training upgrades filled. Jyn just wants duck and cover at the very least.

I strongly disagree with this and since we are on a forum we might as well argue. I don't think what she does better is material is 95% of games, they are very slight and impractical benefits. Plus action economy matters and Cassian has it from the start of the game, Jyn has terrible action economy. If Cassian is 100 points and Jyn is 100pts (she is 110) then Cassian is still better. Let me explain my viewpoint.

Lets point out why Quick Thinking is weak as opposed to Marksman, if we are using danger sense 3 we are giving up one activation, so do you want to aim and dodge, or shoot because you aren't doing both. At its core Jyn gives up her activations to use Danger Sense. This is a bigger problem as you move up. What if you are at mid range 4, are you going to Quick Thinking and move, or move and shoot? What if Jyn is suppressed at range 3, do you shoot, move or use Quick Thinking? Cassian doesn't have this issue, if he moves, he gets a aim token. There are multiple upgrades that give him aim tokens for free (hunter and offensive push) and C3P0 and K2SO both do it for him. Bottom line Cassian can maneuver and use Marksman and will consistently use Marksman.

A courage 3 bubble is good but not huge. Leia is only courage 2 and no one complains about her. Your standard unit is suppressed at 1 hit no matter if you are courage 2 or 3. When talking about the Rebels if you get to suppression 4 typically you are talking a dead or almost dead unit. What a courage bubble 3 does best is let a really tanky unit that can survive multiple hits (Sabine) not panic. For the Rebels this is rarer due to white armor saves.

Danger sense 3 versus 4 are going to be generally immaterial except for a niche situation but neither you nor I really worry about this piece of it.

The only one I will give you is Jyn can take command cards where as Cassian can take an extra training slot so there are some situations where Jyn could be better than Cassian, assuming we ignore Leia is out there as a better infantry commander.

This of course ignores Cassian has better weapon options, synergizes better with vehicles, is a hard counter for snipers and has command cards that is probably a lot stronger. Plus K2SO is like R2D2/C3P0 and Chewie all in one.

5 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

The single extra white rarely does anything. The benefit from having light cover is better, but any unit with a training upgrade can benefit from that.

Duck and cover and danger sense actually does a bit . Let's just assume that your opponent gets to force 2 attacks out in the open on turn 1 with each attack doing 4 wounds each attack on Leia and Jyn

Round 1 1 suppression from duck and cover , 1 wound goes fro dodge, 1 from cover leaving 2 wounds to save on 3 dice , one of which will save. So 4 wounds becomes 1. Normally this would have been 2 wounds since 1 would be gone from dodge and 1 from a save. So currently 1 wound vs 2 for any other white save unit who doesn't use duck and cover.

Round 2 3 suppression the 2 wounds go leaving 2 to save on 5 white dice averaging 1.66 saves so 0.33 wounds land per attack at this point. Even if the other unit still has suppression it's taking 1.33 wounds per turn at this point vs the 0.33

So over 2, 4 wound attacks leaves Leia on 3.33 wounds average and Jyn on 1.33.

To put this into perspective if the same attacks were done on a red save unit 1 wound gets through on the first attack and 0.66 wounds on the second for a total of 1.66 wounds.

So Leia is worst off on 3.33 wounds, Mr Red save no surge gets 1.66 wounds Jyn gets 1.33 this isn't irrelevant, in games, yes I've seen he fluff rolls and get some damage through, but the average bears out over time in the games I play. Just don't hang her out to dry and assume Danger Sense is going to save a unit from focused fire , you wouldn't sit Luke out in the open to get shot at any more than you should Jyn or Leia.

However danger sense saved 3.33 wounds down to 1.33 wounds and performed on average better than red saves, albeit less consistently but has potential to remove more from pierce shots.

@syrath You're missing what I'm saying entirely. I said for the FIRST attack, Danger Sense isn't great. You're getting more value from Duck and Cover than Danger Sense for the first attack. Also the original comparison was with Uncanny Luck vs Danger Sense, specifically the survivability of Han vs Jyn.

If you want to go down that road, Han does better from the first attack with Duck and Cover simply by getting heavy cover alone. Also why are you factoring in dodge? You can't guarantee that you'll have one every time you're attacked.

Assuming no dodge vs 4 hit attack with Duck and Cover

Han takes 0.88 damage consistently (low profile helps here)

Jyn, in order of suppression tokens, takes 1.67, 1.34, 1.01, 0.68

Assuming a dodge vs 4 hit attack with Duck and Cover

Han takes 0.44 damage from the first attack, but lacks nimble.

Jyn, in order of suppression tokens, takes 1, 0.66, 0.33, effectively 0. However she can't feed herself dodge tokens once she has 3 suppression so repeat performance after a round of being shot extensively is dubious.

8 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

@syrath You're missing what I'm saying entirely. I said for the FIRST attack, Danger Sense isn't great. You're getting more value from Duck and Cover than Danger Sense for the first attack. Also the original comparison was with Uncanny Luck vs Danger Sense, specifically the survivability of Han vs Jyn.

If you want to go down that road, Han does better from the first attack with Duck and Cover simply by getting heavy cover alone. Also why are you factoring in dodge? You can't guarantee that you'll have one every time you're attacked.

Assuming no dodge vs 4 hit attack with Duck and Cover

Han takes 0.88 damage consistently (low profile helps here)

Jyn, in order of suppression tokens, takes 1.67, 1.34, 1.01, 0.68

Assuming a dodge vs 4 hit attack with Duck and Cover

Han takes 0.44 damage from the first attack, but lacks nimble.

Jyn, in order of suppression tokens, takes 1, 0.66, 0.33, effectively 0. However she can't feed herself dodge tokens once she has 3 suppression so repeat performance after a round of being shot extensively is dubious.

all great points don't forget though jyn can ignore suppression tokens for one turn. I haven't used Han enough to have an informed opinion on him. So I'll defer to you in that area

Just now, Tirion said:

all great points don't forget though jyn can't ignore suppression tokens basically for one turn. I haven't used tan enough to have an informed opinion on him. So I'll defer to you in that area

Don't get me wrong, I like what Jyn brings to the table. I just prefer that Han can't be nuked on the first attack as easily.

Han lives because of Chewie not because of his dice. He also gets heavy cover. Han does more damage, but it is spread out.

Jyn gets shot twice and she dies ( unless Chewie is there) but the command cards don't support this.

I've had way more success with Han than Jyn, but that is just my experience

16 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

@syrath You're missing what I'm saying entirely. I said for the FIRST attack, Danger Sense isn't great. You're getting more value from Duck and Cover than Danger Sense for the first attack. Also the original comparison was with Uncanny Luck vs Danger Sense, specifically the survivability of Han vs Jyn.

If you want to go down that road, Han does better from the first attack with Duck and Cover simply by getting heavy cover alone. Also why are you factoring in dodge? You can't guarantee that you'll have one every time you're attacked.

Assuming no dodge vs 4 hit attack with Duck and Cover

Han takes 0.88 damage consistently (low profile helps here)

Jyn, in order of suppression tokens, takes 1.67, 1.34, 1.01, 0.68

Assuming a dodge vs 4 hit attack with Duck and Cover

Han takes 0.44 damage from the first attack, but lacks nimble.

Jyn, in order of suppression tokens, takes 1, 0.66, 0.33, effectively 0. However she can't feed herself dodge tokens once she has 3 suppression so repeat performance after a round of being shot extensively is dubious.

I would like to add though against smaller dice pools Jen is significantly better than Han defensively.

@buckero0 by that logic everyone not named like gets 2 shot

1 minute ago, Tirion said:

I would like to add though against smaller dice pools Jen is significantly better than Han defensively.

Provided that she has 2 suppression she does. Jyn also does better against any random crit that pops up since Han is relying on heavy cover.

The dodge is there just to give an "average" I gave it to Leia as well. All results get worse without it on equal footing and it's not unreasonable to expect her to have a dodge or be in heavy cover to begin with , if she was out in the open I'd certainly be looking to activate her early and get a dodge going, if I want to activate her late then I lose the advantage of quick thinking and nimble and I'm most likely hiding in heavy cover with a plan to activate late and then activate early.

for the record I tend to make most of her shots at range 3, ultimately though I'm not placing her to beat the enemy, I'm placing her to score poi its though.

13 hours ago, Tirion said:

Duck and cover is a thing.... And by the second round of firing they have 3 suppression.... Also Han doesn't help you against pierce danger sense does. I'm fact it's one of the only way to deal with it.

I'm not even saying they are better or worse than Han they are completely different kits. But if we are comparing danger sense to uncanny luck let's look at all the factors.

Han does help you with pierce by having heavy cover, you need a sufficiently high damage attack to burst through the heavy cover. For instance a sniper team on Han need to roll two hits to get one wound. Where as on Jyn, you have a small chance to avoid one wound but a greater chance to take two wounds.

9 hours ago, Uetur said:

Han does help you with pierce by having heavy cover, you need a sufficiently high damage attack to burst through the heavy cover. For instance a sniper team on Han need to roll two hits to get one wound. Where as on Jyn, you have a small chance to avoid one wound but a greater chance to take two wounds.

Or just any of the plethora of critical options. We were talking about danger sense vs. Uncanny luck but yes heavy cover as opposed to jyns light cover could help against Pierce out in the open

50 minutes ago, Tirion said:

Or just any of the plethora of critical options. We were talking about danger sense vs. Uncanny luck but yes heavy cover as opposed to jyns light cover could help against Pierce out in the open

I respect that but a conversation about Danger sense versus Uncanny Luck I think should involve the total conversation of Uncanny Luck and low profile versus Danger Sense and potentially the loss of an action. I have never found Jyn to be a anti Pierce powerhouse like say Bob Fett, more of a wow it actually worked out one time.

1 hour ago, Uetur said:

I respect that but a conversation about Danger sense versus Uncanny Luck I think should involve the total conversation of Uncanny Luck and low profile versus Danger Sense and potentially the loss of an action. I have never found Jyn to be a anti Pierce powerhouse like say Bob Fett, more of a wow it actually worked out one time.

Agree to a point danger sense against against smaller pierce dice pools like snipers can be better than impervious. I'm taking about the DS vs the impervious dice here not the entire defensive pools. Not trying to say jyn has better defense than boba

On 3/5/2020 at 6:19 PM, syrath said:

I'd maybe take grappling hooks or environmental not sure you need the triple 're-roll from targeting scopes , it's unlikely you would roll blanks unless you bring no armament, but I'd want that for the pierce alone.

You’ve obviously never seen me roll, or re-roll! 😀

In a game today. I had two black die roll a blank and a surge for a unit that didn’t surge. No problem, I’ve got three aim tokens. I rolled a blank and a surge three times!!!!!

9 hours ago, drail14me said:

You’ve obviously never seen me roll, or re-roll! 😀

In a game today. I had two black die roll a blank and a surge for a unit that didn’t surge. No problem, I’ve got three aim tokens. I rolled a blank and a surge three times!!!!!

This is why they didn't give Spotter to the Rebels, everyone knows that anyone that plays rebels can't roll a reasonable amount of hits no matter what the dice.

On 3/11/2020 at 4:07 AM, drail14me said:

You’ve obviously never seen me roll, or re-roll! 😀

In a game today. I had two black die roll a blank and a surge for a unit that didn’t surge. No problem, I’ve got three aim tokens. I rolled a blank and a surge three times!!!!!