If I attack with Former Champion and it has no power on it, but then claims a power from renown (after winning), does it acquire deadly during that same challenge? (In other words, if renown is checked before deadly, it seems like Former Champion would acquire deadly during the first challenge it wins, rather than after.)

The practical question for this is does my opponent's character die to deadly (assuming he doesn't choose to kill one of the blocking/participating characters) if I swing with a 5 STR champion and he loses?

Yes. Former Champion gains Deadly during the resolution of the first Challenge he wins before Deadly is resolved.

Great way to block against a 3-STR deadly character, too.

So are there a hierarchy of keywords? Renown before deadly so that you gain the keyword? Is there a list of this order? It seemed to me that you would have to have deadly before the resolution of the challenge in order for it to take effect. Is there some precedence that decides this? I'm not trying to be an as about this, I just don't understand why it works the way you decided.

Renown comes before any other keyword because it's part of the framework action. Other keywords have to wait until passives can be triggered.

During the resolution of the challenge the Champion is already Deadly. That's all he needs to apply his keyword.

kpmccoy21 said:

Let's be very specific here with eloooooooi's answer.

There is no hierarchy of keywords. This is all about timing. Look at the resolution of a challenge:

Step 1.1: Initiate "Determine winner of challenge" by comparing total participating STRs.
Step 2.1: Save/Cancel "determining the winner"
Step 3.1: Resolve "determine winner" / challenge officially won

Step 1.2: Initiate "Settle claim effects"
Step 2.2: Save/Cancel vs. "Settle claim effects"
Step 3.2: Resolve claim effects

Step 1.3: Initiate "Award unopposed"
Step 2.3: Save/Cancel "award unopposed"
Step 3.3: Resolve awarding unopposed / power officially claimed

Step 1.4: Initiate "Award Renown"
Step 2.4: Save/Cancel "award Renown"
Step 3.4: Resolve awarding Renown / power officially claimed

Step 4: Passives ( including Deadly )

Step 5: Responses

Step 6: End

See how that works? The game timing specifies that Renown is awarded in Step 3 of resolving the action window. Deadly is resolved in Step 4. More to the point, the game doesn't even look at Deadly until Step 4. (Players do, in anticipation of its resolution, but the game couldn't care less which characters have Deadly and which don't until the passive step.)

Therefore, Former Champion will gain Deadly when he claims power for Renown in Step 3. When you get to Step 4 and resolve Deadly, counting up the number of participating characters with the keyword, he has it. It's no different than, say, having a passive effect that says "after you win a challenge, choose and kneel a character controlled by the losing opponent" and a Response that says "choose and kill a kneeling character." So long as the character kneels before the Response activates, even if it was standing when the window opened, it's fair game. Same sort of timing quirk here.

Thanks guys. What threw me off was the idea of the keyword deadly being gained after claim resolved still going off as if the character had it all along. I guess a better question is why does Renown happen apart from the other passives? Were there past cards that created this?

kpmccoy21 said:

Not past cards. But awarding Renown as part of the challenge resolution's framework (instead of a passive effect activated by winning a challenge) and before the passive effect step has always been part of the timing structure for the game. Renown happens at a time different from passive effects and other win/lose keywords because the rules say so. And have said so since roughly 2004.

I could be wrong, but I have always assumed that renown is separated out from the other passives because it can have such a big effect on the game (ie ending it by one player reaching the necessary power) that the designers decided to make it very clear when renown is awarded and also to make it independent of who the first player is. There are still plenty of other effects that could try to resolve and end the game at the same time, so it doesn't really eliminate this issue, but maybe it makes it a little less frequent.

schrecklich said:

History lesson for anyone interested. People forget that the clarified timing structure and flowcharts we use today were introduced to the game about 2 years after it was released. Things worked a little differently (though not much) before, oh, the summer of 2004. Stealth and Renown are the only 2 passive timing-based keywords (as opposed to a constant effect keyword like "No attachments" or "Limited") that pre-date the current timing structure. So they were probably originally included as framework events (instead of passives) so that everyone would know when they happened in the original timing structure.

I would venture that Renown was left as a framework event for the reasons you mention, though. The "gains power" aspect of it certainly has the most direct impact on the game, and by leaving it as a framework event, you are right that it severely limits the possibility that the First Player will decide who wins the game when passive "gain power" effects would happen in the same passive window as Renown.

Thanks KTom, I appreciate the explanation and the history. Makes sense with those being the only 2 keywords at the time.