As my group will soon begin the "In the Palace of the emerald Champion", I'm wondering about the knowledge of the Kolat available to the Empire and the Magistrates. It used to be a very, very secret plot in previous editions, a "if you know anything you're dead" and it now seems that is a known organisation.

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed by the reckless approach the Kolat has in this scenario. Used to be masterminds plots, now they seems just to wreck havoc. And as Satsume seemed to have such heretic speech, I can't find a logic reason for "why would they kill him" ? Were they unable to completly turn him and so they decided the next EC would be far more simple to bend ?

Any advice would be great.

The Kolat is now different. They are not the super-sekret evil masterminds they were in the old lore but more of a hipster philosopher conspiracy with heavy theological undertones. They seem to be far less united, both with ideology and organization, for example.

The Kolat are not evil, they are just not feudal. They are progress.

11 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

The Kolat are not evil, they are just not feudal. They are progress.

I don't see them as progress as they (in previous edition, at last) finally just wanted to replace the samurai/buke class by their own affiliates.

But yes, they're not feudal, I give you that.

2 hours ago, eScoub said:

I don't see them as progress as they (in previous edition, at last) finally just wanted to replace the samurai/buke class by their own affiliates.

But yes, they're not feudal, I give you that.

I agree. Replacing one set of tyrants with an entirely new set. I see many similarities between the Kolat's ideology and Maximilien Robespierre. Hardly progress.

4 hours ago, eScoub said:

As my group will soon begin the "In the Palace of the emerald Champion", I'm wondering about the knowledge of the Kolat available to the Empire and the Magistrates. It used to be a very, very secret plot in previous editions, a "if you know anything you're dead" and it now seems that is a known organisation.

It's still not exactly common knowledge to the average samurai - precisely because it's so heretical, their existence, and the fact that various high-ranking members of families might have been executed for being Kolat members, gets airbrushed out of history over time, in the same way Empress Hantei Yugozoheime was killed by gaijin cannon-fire at the Battle of White Stag died peacefully after NOTHING HAPPENED.

The Emerald Magistrates, by comparison, maintain a library specifically on cults, criminal societies and other assorted dangerous nutjobs. They know the Kolat 'is a thing' , and what they're after, but there's no indication they know enough about them to tell you how they're organised, for example. The statement Kage 'sees Kolat everywhere' suggests even the magistrates see them as an ill-defined 'Reds under the Bed' threat.

The Kolat has existed for centuries, after all. Keeping your inner workings secret is quite a feat. Keeping even your existence secret for most of a millennium whilst supposedly manipulating absolutely everything ever and yet still somehow not having 'won' was always a bit stupid.

4 hours ago, eScoub said:

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed by the reckless approach the Kolat has in this scenario. Used to be masterminds plots, now they seems just to wreck havoc. And as Satsume seemed to have such heretic speech, I can't find a logic reason for "why would they kill him" ? Were they unable to completly turn him and so they decided the next EC would be far more simple to bend ?

Okay....this is a case of comparing notes with other bits of the story. Essentially, the sequence of events

• Doji Satsume was deeply unimpressed with the two Hantei princes, considering one 'weak' (Hantei Daisetsu, Heir Secondary) and one 'cruel' (Hantei Sotorii, Heir Primary) and frankly didn't think either was shaping up to be a fit heir to Hantei Jodan (the current emperor)
• This opinion, which is arguably heretical but unfortunately pretty justifiable*, came to the attention of a highly placed Kolat sympathiser **
• Said kolat sympathiser thought the same, and was gleefully awaiting the social and economic train-wreck which would result from Hantei Sotorii becoming emperor
• Said Kolat sympathiser exchanged letters discussing sorta-kinda kolat philosophy with Satsume.
• In the process, they became aware that Satsume was doing research on 'old legal precedents' and apparently had a plan to 'solve the problem of the princes being unsuitable'.
• The kolat went 'oh, bugger!' and tried to have him assassinated before he put this plan into motion - using an assassin who'd seen Sotorii brutally kill peasants and who was prepared to go Kamikaze to stop him becoming emperor. They didn't have much time for subtlety because whatever the plan was, it was imperative Satsume died before he could tell anyone about it....
• Whilst Satsume was murdered, it happened after he'd already told the Emperor and Bayushi Shoju about his proposed plan, which they put into effect***

3 hours ago, eScoub said:

I don't see them as progress as they (in previous edition, at last) finally just wanted to replace the samurai/buke class by their own affiliates.

But yes, they're not feudal, I give you that.

Different cells have different views. At one end some want to replace the kami bloodlines with the people most suited, and allow a meritocracy****, whilst others want to maintain a strictly hereditary feudal structure - just with themselves at the top.

* Several stories, starting with Wildcats & Dragons Teeth shows what a spoiled, emotionally stunted turd Sotorii is, whilst Daisetsu's romance with Iuchi Shahai, starting in Heart of the Garden , leads to you getting a feel for his view that 'Bushido's really a bit unnecessarily cruel and harsh, isn't it?'

** "My friend and peer" - don't open the spoiler unless you want to know.

*** See Tiger Stalks His Prey. It doesn't work, because the Emperor has apparently never watched 'Gladiator'. But you can't get Netflix in Otosan Uchi, so I guess that's not entirely his fault...

**** One thing notable is they quite like the Mantis for this reason, as they're the biggest clan not ruled by a Kami bloodline.

On 3/3/2020 at 5:14 PM, neilcell said:

I agree. Replacing one set of tyrants with an entirely new set. I see many similarities between the Kolat's ideology and Maximilien Robespierre. Hardly progress.

In 4E them as somewhat more organized late 19th-early 20th century communists, except less "misfits" and closer to the boogeymen people believed they were. Slightly toned down, I think this could work for 5th.

6 hours ago, The_Shaman said:

In 4E them as somewhat more organized late 19th-early 20th century communists, except less "misfits" and closer to the boogeymen people believed they were. Slightly toned down, I think this could work for 5th.

First in answer to the initial question, Kolat are certainly a thing now. Whether they continue to have the same origins or goals isn't exactly known. In previous editions, the Kolat weren't like communists or socialists at all.. they weren't really seeking governmental or economic change.. rather, they were trying to fight the Kami and their influence in the world. I'm not sure whether they were trying to fight all "gods on earth" (in which case they probably would have gone after other empires also.), or if they were more reacting to Shinjo's display of power while the Ki-rin were out exploring.

This explains why Shinjo, the Kami of compassion, went and slaughtered every single Kolat, then removed her own "family" from power in her clan because their father had worked with the Kolat, even though she knew the children didn't know anything about it. She gave control of her clan to the Moto, because at least the family with ties to a death cult wasn't actively trying to kill her and undo everything she'd done. Shinjo wasn't necessarily in favor of the feudal system, nor was she against communism or caring for everyone.. she was just against people trying to kill her and undo civilization, along with the whole cosmic order.

Now this isn't to say that the Kolat weren't able to fool people into thinking that life would be better for them if the Kolat won. In some ways the Kolat could even be thought of as freedom fighters.. but they wanted to free the Kami from being alive, and free Rokugan from being civilized and were even willing to risk freeing the world from existence in order to accomplish their goals.

P.S.: I should have said I don't know whether their goals and origins are the same now, as I haven't been able to get the Path of Waves yet, I don't really know what that might say on the subject.

On 3/3/2020 at 7:54 AM, eScoub said:

I don't see them as progress as they (in previous edition, at last) finally just wanted to replace the samurai/buke class by their own affiliates.

But yes, they're not feudal, I give you that.

A nepotist monarchy installed by gods, with a caste system and non-people who can be killed at-will, is not really modern lol.

In that sense, the kolat are progress. At least based on the evolution of political systems on Earth.

But yeah, they can be evil. But how would you dislodge that kind of ****** power system if not with a bit of what can be considered "evilness". Again here, our own history can certify that.

Your great clan samurai can call them "heresy", but I think they do have a point.

You can't make an omelette without disrupting social order...

14 hours ago, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

First in answer to the initial question, Kolat are certainly a thing now. Whether they continue to have the same origins or goals isn't exactly known. In previous editions, the Kolat weren't like communists or socialists at all.. they weren't really seeking governmental or economic change.. rather, they were trying to fight the Kami and their influence in the world. I'm not sure whether they were trying to fight all "gods on earth" (in which case they probably would have gone after other empires also.), or if they were more reacting to Shinjo's display of power while the Ki-rin were out exploring.

Ok, I should have clarified, I meant the 19th centuries as an anti-establishment conspiracy with some idealistic goals (and plenty of opportunists), rather than the established movements and "state socialism" of the mid-20th century. That said, there was an idea of equality in their beliefs, though obviously not all wanted to take it all the way. And let's be frank, Rokugan is heavily classist and this is backed by "divine decree"- even if the books, for obvious reasons, try to shy away from it.

Shinjo's reaction was quite understandable, especially considering she went through quite a lot of nasty stuff because of the Kolat