14 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I’ve lived in both Canada and the United States. The American system (if it can even be called a system) as it is now has way more bureaucratic overhead than the Canadian single payer system. In Canada you just swipe your SIN card in a reader and that’s the extent of the bureaucracy you see, while in the US I’ve had to fill out paperwork while literally bleeding on the counter, followed by months of wrangling between the insurance company and the hospital to arrive at the actual price on the bill (which is always to high). On top of which the American billing system is Tiered you pay more if you have a job, insurance than you would if you didn’t.

Also there’s no way the American medical system could be considered capitalist. There is no price competition between hospitals or even posted prices to comparison shop between hospitals. As soon as the insurance companies get involved capitalism goes out the window, it’s just two private bureaucracies wrangling over how much the can gouge you.

The only part of the American system I’d actually consider capitalism is the cosmetic surgery and laser eye surgery clinics who actual compete against each other.

You can get prices and do comparative shopping for medical treatments in the US. It's a bit more complicated than price checks at Walmart, but it can be done. What makes it a pain in the butt is that the payors (insurance companies) can refuse to pay those prices after the procedure is done, and then the patient gets stuck with a bill that can never be paid, the hospital may write it off, but the process might get inflated to compensate, and... Yeah, it's a mess.

34 minutes ago, Eoen said:

It’s the only point I as the end user gives a **** about. The numbers are clear Canada’s system is more cost effective than ours.

It is also cheaper to become a doctor in Canada, the school costs are lower, the malpractice insurance rates aren’t half your income like here. Canadians aren’t as litigious as Americans so less time in court.

Costs for the end patient are lower across the board. Drugs are much lower priced than here, proceeders cost less in general, people don’t have to switch doctors every year or two because the company they work for shopped a new plan.

So effective your own health minister came here to the US to get his stent. Because he probably would have died waiting to actually get the procedure done. It is so effective there are people out in the country that have no doctor because you dont have enough doctors. And I do give a **** about that bureaucracy because you have to pay for it using taxes... So no I dont think it is cost effective.

Costs for the end patient is waiting months for procedures because you dont have enough doctors to service who you have and if you dont live in a city you might not have a doctor at all because there is no incentive for a doctor to set up a practice out in the country...Just because the costs are hidden or less obvious does not mean they are not there.

13 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So effective your own health minister came here to the US to get his stent. Because he probably would have died waiting to actually get the procedure done. It is so effective there are people out in the country that have no doctor because you dont have enough doctors. And I do give a **** about that bureaucracy because you have to pay for it using taxes... So no I dont think it is cost effective.

Costs for the end patient is waiting months for procedures because you dont have enough doctors to service who you have and if you dont live in a city you might not have a doctor at all because there is no incentive for a doctor to set up a practice out in the country...Just because the costs are hidden or less obvious does not mean they are not there.

Canada pays for those surgeries in America. If you can’t get a surgery here does your insurance cover that stem cell procedure in Panama? Let’s not forget all the border runs Americans make to by pharmaceuticals for affordable prices.

At least a third of Americans are without insurance. Even if your insured you get the surgery approved or they won’t pay for it. You think there isn’t waiting lists for surgeries here?

Also most of Canada is extremely rural of course they are going to have to travel to Doctors.

So in the Republic or the Empire you could have a hospital for the cost of the building plus local taxes, a small administrative staff who would probably be Sentient doctors, most of the doctors, nurses and surgical specialists would be droids, the administrative staff would be droids, accounting droids, cleaning and maintenance would be droids. Other costs would be consumables (which would likely be manufactured by droids), EMT droids, and emergency vehicles.

8 hours ago, Eoen said:

Also most of Canada is extremely rural of course they are going to have to travel to Doctors.

As do people in rural USA.

9 hours ago, Eoen said:

So in the Republic or the Empire you could have a hospital for the cost of the building plus local taxes, a small administrative staff who would probably be Sentient doctors, most of the doctors, nurses and surgical specialists would be droids, the administrative staff would be droids, accounting droids, cleaning and maintenance would be droids. Other costs would be consumables (which would likely be manufactured by droids), EMT droids, and emergency vehicles.

but many don't like droids so I don't think it will be as droid heavy as you think nor are they cheep

also labor seems to be REAL cheep in the world going by EoE pay out prices

22 hours ago, kmanweiss said:

Universal wouldn't increase the amount of paychecks between a patient and their doctor as it swaps one insurance system for a different one. However, the government isn't a for profit entity where the insurance company is. Government intervention in pricing control would help limit cost inflation for profit from paymasters. If anything, universal coverage would reduce the amount of people looking to get paid. Think of the reduction in the billing/claims department of various medical institutions. The reduction in salespeople. The reduction in various middlemen.

Universal would mean that hospitals could cut billing staff. Universal means no more PBM (pointless middleman). Universal means no more skyrocketing pharmaceutical prices (which always seems to follow legislation that the pharmaceutical company lobbied for). No more hospital chargemasters making up arbitrary numbers for goods/services.

The problem with the US system is that there are too many levels trying to make profit and doing so in ways that are basically unregulated. Pharmaceutical company, PBMs, insurance company, pharmacy, hospital, and the doctor are all trying to get paid from writing a script. That means the patient getting that script is on the hook for the profit of at least 6 different entities and thats just at the high level. While making profit isn't a bad thing by any means (pretty important element of capitalism), when it gets out of hand, it needs to be wrangled back into control. The medical industry as a whole though has too many lobbyists to control that through simple price control mechanics. At this point direct government intervention is needed. Some things just shouldn't be profit orientated (not to say that profit can't be made).

But beyond all that cost control, there is a societal impact. It's something that is harder to measure, but is there, and its important.

Reduction in bankruptcies and divorces has already been mentioned. Financial stability for people is very important. General health levels. Elderly or disabled people on fixed incomes not having to decide between medications and medical treatment or food and rent. No longer having to rely on charity or luck to finance expensive medical treatment through fundraisers or gofundme campaigns. It's been shown that universal healthcare (even if it covers elective abortions) actually decreases the abortion rate. Access to affordable birth control also reduces the abortion rate. Preventative care could heavily reduce overall cost of coverage vs more costly post-problem treatments, but most people, even if insured avoid preventative care because any medical care is expensive. The list goes on.

That "for Profit" factor is a good thing. Profit pays for and encourages advancement in medical procedures, new drugs, better equipment, etc. Government Controlled "unversal" Healthcare systems stifle that development.

26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That "for Profit" factor is a good thing. Profit pays for and encourages advancement in medical procedures, new drugs, better equipment, etc. Government Controlled "unversal" Healthcare systems stifle that development.

Please dont tell me you think that is where the criminal profits of the American health industry are going/

31 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Please dont tell me you think that is where the criminal profits of the American health industry are going/

criminal profits? More like regulations that result in massive mispending of funds on things like bureaucrats...

The current issues with the American healthcare system are largely the governments fault to begin with, so I find it kinda funny that people think more government is the solution. According to the WHO, the US is number 4 in the world in per capita government spending on healthcare.

27 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Please dont tell me you think that is where the criminal profits of the American health industry are going/

Uuuuuuuuuhhhhhh No.

Anywhat, check out these rather informative videos on the issue of "uiniversal healthcare".

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Uuuuuuuuuhhhhhh No.

Anywhat, check out these rather informative videos on the issue of "uiniversal healthcare".

Did you seriously link to frelling PragerU? There's more hard fact in the Ewoks cartoon.

29 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The current issues with the American healthcare system are largely the governments fault to begin with, so I find it kinda funny that people think more government is the solution. According to the WHO, the US is number 4 in the world in per capita government spending on healthcare.

American government is weird. Since Nixon there's been a series of governments progressing the status quo, and regressing it again, depending on which party is in power.

I mean, when the stated philosophy of one of the two main parties is that governemt shouldn't be able to do anything, one should not be surprised that government isn't able to do anything.

16 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

I mean, when the stated philosophy of one of the two main parties is that governemt shouldn't be able to do anything, one should not be surprised that government isn't able to do anything.

This is exactly the problem, no government solution to healthcare will work when the people running the government don’t want it to work or are looking for a fat consultant position In the medical industrial complex when they are out of office.

Just look at the mess the VA is. This is why I advocate firing the locals and hiring the Canadian and Cuban governments to run Americas healthcare. Cause a B grade healthcare system is better than an our F grade system. Don’t forget American doctors are the number three cause of death in the US.

3 minutes ago, Eoen said:

This is exactly the problem, no government solution to healthcare will work when the people running the government don’t want it to work or are looking for a fat consultant position In the medical industrial complex when they are out of office.

Perhaps the problem is the people who want the government to take over healthcare in the first place.

4 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Just look at the mess the VA is. This is why I advocate firing the locals and hiring the Canadian and Cuban governments to run Americas healthcare. Cause a B grade healthcare system is better than an our F grade system.

The VA. Is run. By the GOVERNMENT . And did you seriously just invoke the Cubans as an example of a well-run healthcare system?

12 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The VA. Is run. By the GOVERNMENT .

Half the time the VA run by a government actively opposed to the idea of government running the VA.

22 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The VA. Is run. By the GOVERNMENT . And did you seriously just invoke the Cubans as an example of a well-run healthcare system?

Not seriously no (Americans are to proud for that), but on average Cubans have better healthcare than Americans, despite over 50 years of American economic warfare on the island.

1 minute ago, micheldebruyn said:

Half the time the VA run by a government actively opposed to the idea of government running the VA.

And yet somehow it is bad all the time. Funding for the VA has actually increased under Republican presidents. In fact, the quality of care has increased under President Trump. I am dubious, but I hope that this is a trend that continues.
https://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=5111 https://healthitanalytics.com/news/71-of-veterans-affairs-hospitals-improve-on-care-quality

Just now, Eoen said:

Not seriously no (Americans are to proud for that), but on average Cubans have better healthcare than Americans.

Note that even HuffPo has a low opinion of the Cuban healthcare system, and it was written by someone who was praised by Obama.

http://therealcuba.com/?page_id=77
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/think-the-cuban-healthcare-system-is-ideal-no-cigar-not-even-close
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cubas-much-lauded-health-_b_871434
https://www.nationalreview.com/2007/07/myth-cuban-health-care/

3 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Not seriously no (Americans are to proud for that), but on average Cubans have better healthcare than Americans, despite over 50 years of American economic warfare on the island.

You are going to have to show where you got that idea. Last I checked Cabans build boats out of trash to escape that county. I dont see that as a glowing endorsement that we should replicate. I am also dubious the Cuba would be honest about the care they provide.

15 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Note that even HuffPo has a low opinion of the Cuban healthcare system, and it was written by someone who was praised by Obama.

http://therealcuba.com/?page_id=77
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/think-the-cuban-healthcare-system-is-ideal-no-cigar-not-even-close
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cubas-much-lauded-health-_b_871434
https://www.nationalreview.com/2007/07/myth-cuban-health-care/

I think both American political parties are in a diabolical pact with each other and Satan. Please don’t assume I’m for Obama/Rhomneycare.

The American press simply cannot be trusted to report about anything in Latin America. They rarely ever speak a truth in general about anything they or their parent company makes money on unless it’s sandwiched between two lies.

4 minutes ago, Eoen said:

I think both American political parties are in a diabolical pact with each other and Satan. Please don’t assume I’m for Obama/Rhomneycare.

I'm not assuming anything about your position. However, you clearly have disdain for Republicans, and Obama most decidedly is not a Republican, which is why I mentioned it.

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I'm not assuming anything about your position. However, you clearly have disdain for Republicans, and Obama most decidedly is not a Republican, which is why I mentioned it.

There are two right wing parties (both with soft right and hard right positions) in America neither of which would be recognized by the founding fathers as any party they belonged to.

3 minutes ago, Eoen said:

There are two right wing parties (both with soft right and hard right positions) in America neither of which would be recognized by the founding fathers as any party they belonged to.

*facepalm*

By what metric is the Democrat party (also known in America as "the Left") right-wing?

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

*facepalm*

By what metric is the Democrat party (also known in America as "the Left") right-wing?

By any metric on earth besides America. There’s a real left in Canada 🇨🇦 so it’s easy to recognize theirs no effective left or real left here in 🇺🇸 .