Just now, micheldebruyn said:

What exactly is the FDA mess?

So it takes 10 years ond multiple billions of dollars to get a drug approved. We also prevent people who are dying from using potentially life saving drugs because they arent approved. We have a revolving door where drug companies have people go into and out of FDA administration. Ie they will work for the fda for a few years and then go back to the drug company. While at the FDA they will make it very difficult for rival companies to get stuff approved. There is only one company that can make epi injection pens. Not because there are not alternative designs for these pens but because only one design is approved and the other designers cant get there pens approved. You also cant tell people the health benefits of various food not because the claims are untrue but because the rules say they cant.

18 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

You keep pointing out problems that are literally caused buy government intervention and if it proves that we need government intervention to solve this. That is like saying the curenfor alcoholism is to make sure we drink more booze.

Remember that much of those problems caused by government intervention are fueled by lobbyists working for... wait for it... business interests that stand to profit from healthcare. Take away the need for those businesses to push their plans through the government, and things are likely to get worse not better.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So it takes 10 years ond multiple billions of dollars to get a drug approved. We also prevent people who are dying from using potentially life saving drugs because they arent approved. We have a revolving door where drug companies have people go into and out of FDA administration. Ie they will work for the fda for a few years and then go back to the drug company. While at the FDA they will make it very difficult for rival companies to get stuff approved. There is only one company that can make epi injection pens. Not because there are not alternative designs for these pens but because only one design is approved and the other designers cant get there pens approved. You also cant tell people the health benefits of various food not because the claims are untrue but because the rules say they cant.

Yeah, because drugs for human use, that's definitely where you want to cut corners.

The problem with Epipen seems to be a combination of patent law and Mylan being greedy rats.

And that health benefits of various food stuffs seems to be righteously clamping down on false advertising and snake oil swindling.

1 hour ago, micheldebruyn said:

Yeah, because drugs for human use, that's definitely where you want to cut corners.

The problem with Epipen seems to be a combination of patent law and Mylan being greedy rats.

And that health benefits of various food stuffs seems to be righteously clamping down on false advertising and snake oil swindling.

So you want super expensive drugs then. You do realize that making it take 10 years to produce does not result in safer drugs right? Look at the number of drugs approved then having their approval revoked. Look at how long it takes for those revokations to happen. It is not like the FDA has a very good track record. And you do realize that drug companies use the FDA to keep out competition.

1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

Remember that much of those problems caused by government intervention are fueled by lobbyists working for... wait for it... business interests that stand to profit from healthcare. Take away the need for those businesses to push their plans through the government, and things are likely to get worse not better.

Remove the power of the FDA to destroy competition and you will not have this problem. Remove the power and those lobbyists are no longer needed.

7 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

So you want super expensive drugs then. You do realize that making it take 10 years to produce does not result in safer drugs right? Look at the number of drugs approved then having their approval revoked. Look at how long it takes for those revokations to happen. It is not like the FDA has a very good track record. And you do realize that drug companies use the FDA to keep out competition.

I agree, on this point the FDA is a political tool who’s policies change whenever another admin gets in power, and science is just one of the tools they wield politically (just look at the food pyramid that recommends the diet the dairy and and cattle rangers association recommends).

They also have a revolving door between regulators and the regulated, the reality being the regulators are always looking for favors and high paying positions with the regulated after they leave government.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

So it takes 10 years ond multiple billions of dollars to get a drug approved. We also prevent people who are dying from using potentially life saving drugs because they arent approved. We have a revolving door where drug companies have people go into and out of FDA administration. Ie they will work for the fda for a few years and then go back to the drug company. While at the FDA they will make it very difficult for rival companies to get stuff approved. There is only one company that can make epi injection pens. Not because there are not alternative designs for these pens but because only one design is approved and the other designers cant get there pens approved. You also cant tell people the health benefits of various food not because the claims are untrue but because the rules say they cant.

Er...

thank god it takes years of study before medical drugs and equipment are approved ?

2 centuries ago, morphine and cocaine were considered harmless pastimes because no one bothered to study them 1st

3 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

Er...

thank god it takes years of study before medical drugs and equipment are approved ?

2 centuries ago, morphine and cocaine were considered harmless pastimes because no one bothered to study them 1st

And in this 100% unregulated paradise, you should be able to get both without a prescription.

9 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Remove the power of the FDA to destroy competition and you will not have this problem. Remove the power and those lobbyists are no longer needed.

Btw I'm still waiting for some answers to my questions. As said before they're not really problems, they're valid questions for your proposed system. I even have more of them, but I want to see your proposed way of dealing with them first.

1. What does any of this have to do with Star Wars?

2. Why are you guys still feeding this disingenuous and hypocritical troll? He’s got no real arguments and, like a child, is just arguing to be right when everyone is telling him he’s wrong.

i think I’m going to take the advice of someone earlier in this thread and just report each post.

3 hours ago, Darth Revenant said:

Btw I'm still waiting for some answers to my questions. As said before they're not really problems, they're valid questions for your proposed system. I even have more of them, but I want to see your proposed way of dealing with them first.

I already answered them. A long time ago.

3 hours ago, micheldebruyn said:

And in this 100% unregulated paradise, you should be able to get both without a prescription.

Looks at the Drug War... Has making them illegal done anything useful? Near as I can tell it has just made a huge black market that funds criminal gangs. I have not seen any decrease in availability. In fact near as I can tell they are both more available now than before.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

Looks at the Drug War... Has making them illegal done anything useful? Near as I can tell it has just made a huge black market that funds criminal gangs. I have not seen any decrease in availability. In fact near as I can tell they are both more available now than before.

7 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

Er...

thank god it takes years of study before medical drugs and equipment are approved ?

2 centuries ago, morphine and cocaine were considered harmless pastimes because no one bothered to study them 1st

Do you have this idea that those making medical equipment care so little that would put out product with out testing? I would posit that a medical device company that did that would not be in business for very long even with out regulations. I think people think the government protects them. I disagree. I think most people genuinely want to help others. So all regulations do is slow them down jumping through additional hoops that don't really accomplish anything that wouldn't happen anyway.. I think much of what the government does can be accomplished with trade associations. Near as I can tell those who go into making medical equipment genuinely want to help people so I dont think we have to worry so much about them being regulated. Besides it isn't regulations that protect you. Those who go into business do not want to cause you harm. It is bad for business.

2 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Not moving the goal post. The idea that regulations make you safe is silly. The drug war is a prime example. In no way has making these drugs illegal made us safer. In fact looking at all the murders I would say those regulations made us less safe. It is just another example of how the FDA serves no useful purpose. It is just used as a weapon against other drug companies. Especially new start ups.

27 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

I already answered them. A long time ago.

No you didn't. You said the market would take care of it the same way it's taken care of cosmetic surgery and lasic eye surgery. Which doesn't really answer my questions since neither of those two deal with said questions. If you have some others answers hidden in the thread then please make a reference to those or quote them.

3 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

No you didn't. You said the market would take care of it the same way it's taken care of cosmetic surgery and lasic eye surgery. Which doesn't really answer my questions since neither of those two deal with said questions. If you have some others answers hidden in the thread then please make a reference to those or quote them.

well except is does. It drives the cost down to a much more reasonable level that people would be able to handle it themselves.

1 hour ago, Bojanglez said:

1. What does any of this have to do with Star Wars?

2. Why are you guys still feeding this disingenuous and hypocritical troll? He’s got no real arguments and, like a child, is just arguing to be right when everyone is telling him he’s wrong.

i think I’m going to take the advice of someone earlier in this thread and just report each post.

No one us forcing you guys to read this thread. If he’s a troll why does he have over 5000 upvotes twice as many as you have?

26 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

well except is does. It drives the cost down to a much more reasonable level that people would be able to handle it themselves.

That is in no way an answer to the question of what is a resonable premium for rural high risk occupations or what sort of emergency service cover you can expect in say rural Montana. Or an answer to the question of how organ donations or organ transplants will be sorted out in your system. It's an answer as devoid of substance as saying that the best way to treat cancer is to pray to the lord and give donations to a megachurch. But if your faith in the free market is that big then I have a bridge to sell you up-state, the tolls you will earn from it will more than make up for the purchase cost, but due to not being a US citizen I need to get it out of my hands fast.

@Daeglan How would your proposed system handle a Bioweapon attack?

The American government is currently in panic mode over the COVID-19 outbreak, despite the fact its killed far less people than the flu has this year.

I’ve seen several international articles suggesting the current outbreak is a Bioweapon platform, put together in a gene splicer.

How is the market and thoughtless de-personalized force going to coordinate an adequate response to an attack?

14 minutes ago, Eoen said:

@Daeglan How would your proposed system handle a Bioweapon attack?

The American government is currently in panic mode over the COVID-19 outbreak, despite the fact its killed far less people than the flu has this year.

I’ve seen several international articles suggesting the current outbreak is a Bioweapon platform, put together in a gene splicer.

How is the market and thoughtless de-personalized force going to coordinate an adequate response to an attack?

you use property law. And maybe not call it thoughtless. In many ways I would posit jumping to the government as a solution is far more thoughtless. You hand outbreaks like this the way you handle any property rights. the owner of the property gets to control access to their property.

21 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

you use property law. And maybe not call it thoughtless. In many ways I would posit jumping to the government as a solution is far more thoughtless. You hand outbreaks like this the way you handle any property rights. the owner of the property gets to control access to their property.

So would the property owner be the one who is behind the outbreak? Or is it the owner of the properties affected that would determine who gets access? So hospitals could refuse patients who do not have insurance from companies they're affiliated with or patients who didn't opt in for the pandemic clause in their catastrophic event insurance?

1 minute ago, Darth Revenant said:

So would the property owner be the one who is behind the outbreak? Or is it the owner of the properties affected that would determine who gets access? So hospitals could refuse patients who do not have insurance from companies they're affiliated with or patients who didn't opt in for the pandemic clause in their catastrophic event insurance?

The owner gets to control access to their property.
They could. But I doubt they would do that because it is silly. As long as the hospital gets paid they would treat a patient. And costs would be low enough that for most things it could be dont out of pocket. And catastrophic coverage is only maybe a hundred bucks a month which is cheap and easy to afford. and for those who cant you do what we used to do. Even before insurance was the way things were dont doctors did not turn away patients for inability to pay.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Do you have this idea that those making medical equipment care so little that would put out product with out testing? I would posit that a medical device company that did that would not be in business for very long even with out regulations. I think people think the government protects them. I disagree. I think most people genuinely want to help others. So all regulations do is slow them down jumping through additional hoops that don't really accomplish anything that wouldn't happen anyway.. I think much of what the government does can be accomplished with trade associations. Near as I can tell those who go into making medical equipment genuinely want to help people so I dont think we have to worry so much about them being regulated.

the history of medical radiography does not agree with you for example

doctors are as much prone to overexcitement about "the new miracle technique", because they too are people

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Besides it isn't regulations that protect you. Those who go into business do not want to cause you harm. It is bad for business.

the various HIV contaminated blood scandals 2-3 decades ago also don't agree with you. Greed superseceded ethics and return business

regulations are there for a reason, there will always be bad apples and genuinely good people in error and when it's in medical field, consequences are heavy

1 minute ago, MB -Fr- said:

the history of medical radiography does not agree with you for example

doctors are as much prone to overexcitement about "the new miracle technique", because they too are people

the various HIV contaminated blood scandals 2-3 decades ago also don't agree with you. Greed superseceded ethics and return business

regulations are there for a reason, there will always be bad apples and genuinely good people in error and when it's in medical field, consequences are heavy

Making them liable to damages they cause fixes much of that.

There will always be bad apples. Regulations don't make that not happen. they mostly slow things down needlessly. Using Liability accomplishes what regulations do with out the need for anything else.