Just now, Kualan said:

because that keeps it stupidly expensive. I mean look at how expensive everything the government does is. Look at the F35. how over budget was that? and you want to put these same people in charge of healthcare? Does the VA work? I hear about the horrible nightmares our service members who go to the VA have. Why would we want that for everyone? They cant even buildd a high speed rail from socal to san fran. and you think they are gonna be able to do healthcare? They couldnt even get the ACA web page to work.

The people doing the F35 (a for-profit company: Lockheed Martin) are not the same people doing healthcare. You keep referring to "the government" as though it were some monolithic, singular object. It's not. It's granular. It's thousands of people doing their best.

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

because that keeps it stupidly expensive.

Does it?

I have the fortune to live in a country with universal healthcare so I can speak from actual experience and not speculation - the amount I pay in taxation is incredibly manageable.

Full disclosure, I have no intention of getting dragged into this kind of debate on a forum I come to when I want to talk about rolling dice in an imaginary galaxy, so that will be the sum total of my contribution to this thread.

Though I reserve the right to post GIFs later down the line - I do not accept government regulation of my GIF usage.

9 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

How is lets remove the things that make healthcare so stupidly expensive not compassionate? Instead of taking half of someones pay check to pay for everyones healthcare how bout we make healthcare actually affordable again?

That would suppose private health care is less expensive and more efficient than public health care

which is not proven

2 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

That would suppose private health care is less expensive and more efficient than public health care

which is not proven

Canadians pay less for their government healthcare than most Americans pay for their insurance and it covers more.

If your asking for a more affordable option, by every metric their system is more affordable, and has generally better results, than any health option in America except for the people who own hospitals and congress.

9 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Canadians pay less for their government healthcare than most Americans pay for their insurance and it covers more.

If your asking for a more affordable option, by every metric their system is more affordable, and has generally better results, than any health option in America except for the people who own hospitals and congress.

Or we could stop doing the crap that is making our healthcare expensive. And I have a hard time believing the same people who couldnt get a web page to work would somehow magically make healthcare more affordable. They dont exactly have that track record.

Again, you are sweeping thousands of people up in your "they". The government is not a hivemind. It is regular people doing day to day jobs just like everyone else. Are you so conditioned to dismiss the government that you cannot see it is made up of people?

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

Or we could stop doing the crap that is making our healthcare expensive. And I have a hard time believing the same people who couldnt get a web page to work would somehow magically make healthcare more affordable. They dont exactly have that track record.

Given the number of horror stories about incompetency and cutting costs in the private sector in any industry you can think of, I don't see how a private regulated care system would make it better

7 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

Given the number of horror stories about incompetency and cutting costs in the private sector in any industry you can think of, I don't see how a private regulated care system would make it better

Well given that cosmetic surgery is getting better and cheaper with other medicine is getting stagnant and more expensive I think I would like to try the option that has cost come down while improving.
Also given that those same horror stories also happen with government controlled things I think I would like the cheaper better option with a chance of bad stuff happening as opposed to the more expansive poor quality that has a chance of bad stuff happen. Bad stuff could happen either way. The government does not prevent it. Case in point the VA.

33 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

You keep referring to "the government" as though it were some monolithic, singular object. It's not. It's granular. It's thousands of people doing their best.

You must be either very young or an elderly naive person or live in a land where government officials are miraculously really doing their best for the tax payers (or you are an official yourself). 😂

I agree that the government is not a monolithic, singular object but assuming that every government employee is doing their best for the people is one of the most hillarious jokes I have ever heard. 🤣

8 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

Given the number of horror stories about incompetency and cutting costs in the private sector in any industry you can think of, I don't see how a private regulated care system would make it better

I assure you from the point of view of one of those "european healthcare wonderlands", there are as many horror stories about governmental healthcare about unbelievebly stupid incompetency as there may be for private sector ones.

1 minute ago, DarthDude said:

You must be either very young or an elderly naive person or live in a land where government officials are miraculously really doing their best for the tax payers (or you are an official yourself). 😂

I agree that the government is not a monolithic, singular object but assuming that every government employee is doing their best for the people is one of the most hillarious jokes I have ever heard. 🤣

I didn't say for the people. I said doing their best, whatever that is. People are flawed and limited, but go do their jobs every day and do work that sucks, that they get badmouthed for, so they can get by. What I am chastising is the assumption they are incompetent, intentionally running up expenses, or after what belongs to you as a whole. Say whatever you want about individuals, but sweeping generalizations are never factual.

1 minute ago, Vek Baustrade said:

I didn't say for the people. I said doing their best, whatever that is. People are flawed and limited, but go do their jobs every day and do work that sucks, that they get badmouthed for, so they can get by. What I am chastising is the assumption they are incompetent, intentionally running up expenses, or after what belongs to you as a whole. Say whatever you want about individuals, but sweeping generalizations are never factual.

I live in one of those european healthcare wonderlands with a very docile towards the government and the state's employee's are running up expenses either intentionally or simply out of incompetence, positions are createt without functions just to have cronies paid by tax money for instance. A major chunk of the tax money does to a bloated governmental healthcare bureaucracy. They run up expenses to feed themselves and at the same time you receive less service for increasing taxes. On top you have to pay for medical services in addition, besides already paying large amounts of healthcare taxes.

2 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

I live in one of those european healthcare wonderlands with a very docile towards the government and the state's employee's are running up expenses either intentionally or simply out of incompetence, positions are createt without functions just to have cronies paid by tax money for instance. A major chunk of the tax money does to a bloated governmental healthcare bureaucracy. They run up expenses to feed themselves and at the same time you receive less service for increasing taxes. On top you have to pay for medical services in addition, besides already paying large amounts of healthcare taxes.

Anecdotal. Citation?

5 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

Anecdotal. Citation?

Would love to see any citation about the legions of governmental employees doing their best (you made your claim first 😉), then I will happily provide you with articles from my home country (you might probably not know my native language but hey, there's google translate). 😉

9 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

I live in one of those european healthcare wonderlands with a very docile towards the government and the state's employee's are running up expenses either intentionally or simply out of incompetence, positions are createt without functions just to have cronies paid by tax money for instance. A major chunk of the tax money does to a bloated governmental healthcare bureaucracy. They run up expenses to feed themselves and at the same time you receive less service for increasing taxes. On top you have to pay for medical services in addition, besides already paying large amounts of healthcare taxes.

and yet, your country (germany in your profile) is classified 5th in the ranking of the world's best health care systems, for half the cost of the USA...

forgive me if I think you're a little biased there...

https://fr.april-international.com/en/healthcare-expatriates/which-countries-have-best-healthcare-systems

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany#Economics

13 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

and yet, your country (germany in your profile) is classified 5th in the ranking of the world's best health care systems, for half the cost of the USA...

forgive me if I think you're a little biased there...

https://fr.april-international.com/en/healthcare-expatriates/which-countries-have-best-healthcare-systems

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany#Economics

Well, living here and paying tax money here I might disagree with your sources. First, this april article just shows a ranking without any explanation on what this ranking is based on (honestly, the UK has the best healthcare system of all? Seriously? 😂) and second, this wiki article written by a biased private person is a tad old, don't you think (and seemingly has to be expanded "This section needs expansion. You can help by adding to it. (August 2017)" 😂)?

I'll entertain you with a newer article (based on a OECD study) explaining a bit about the inefficiency of our healthcare system: https://www.pharmazeutische-zeitung.de/teuer-und-ineffizient/

My contention was that governments are made up of people, doing their best in a hard job. Which part do you want to dispute? Yours was that a national healthcare system was corrupt and bloating expenses on the nation's back. You can see why I asked for evidence, perhaps.

You also tried to twist my words twice. Then splashed into hyperbole. It suggests you're not arguing in good faith.

Some other articles about Germany's so

9 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

My contention was that governments are made up of people, doing their best in a hard job. Which part do you want to dispute? Yours was that a national healthcare system was corrupt and bloating expenses on the nation's back. You can see why I asked for evidence, perhaps.

You also tried to twist my words twice. Then splashed into hyperbole. It suggests you're not arguing in good faith.

Now that you fail to provode citation yourself you digress accusing me of "hyperbole" and not arguing in "good faith"?

If my amusement about your naivite according your diligent and highly efficient thousands of government employees is hyperbole, then be it.

You demanded citation. Here you have an example: https://www.pharmazeutische-zeitung.de/teuer-und-ineffizient/

And when I demand a citation of your claims in return you digress and revert to ad hominem attacks? I'd call that dishonest argumentation. What about providing me with some citation instead? 🤔

1 minute ago, Vek Baustrade said:

My contention was that governments are made up of people, doing their best in a hard job. Which part do you want to dispute? Yours was that a national healthcare system was corrupt and bloating expenses on the nation's back. You can see why I asked for evidence, perhaps.

You also tried to twist my words twice. Then splashed into hyperbole. It suggests you're not arguing in good faith.

Having worked with government people I know that that is not what actually happens. What tends to happen is employees do the bare minimum they can get away with. Which tends to be a pretty small amount because they are virtually unfirable. Also they tend to act in a way that gets them the most money. They also suffer no consequences when they make bad decisions. So you tend to get a lot of bad decisions as the worker chooses the solution that is easiest instead of the one that is the most effective. For example instead of arresting someone away from their home in a manner that catches them off guard they will send a SWAT Team in use explosives or shotguns to bust their way in throwing flashbangs willy nilly. (I am aware of a time they threw one into a baby crib.) point guns at everyone only to find out they are either A. at the wrong address. B. Have the wrong people. C. at the right house and the right people. But the informant made everything up. D. based their whole investigation on the fact someone went to a hydroponics store in order to get stuff for their kids science project of growing tomatoes. and the drug test kit tested loose tea as marajuana.

This stuff happens all the time. so no they are not as you paint them.

37 minutes ago, Vek Baustrade said:

Anecdotal. Citation?

55 minutes ago, MB -Fr- said:

and yet, your country (germany in your profile) is classified 5th in the ranking of the world's best health care systems, for half the cost of the USA...

forgive me if I think you're a little biased there...

https://www.healthtv.de/mediathek/757/Das_Deutsche_Gesundheitssystem_Teuer_ineffizient_und_frueher_sterben.html

16 minutes ago, DarthDude said:

https://www.healthtv.de/mediathek/757/Das_Deutsche_Gesundheitssystem_Teuer_ineffizient_und_frueher_sterben.html

Your article says that German healthcare is pretty great and on par with the rest of Europe, but somewhat uneconomical compared to some other EU countries. Compared to the US "system" it's practically free and massively superior in quality.

The German system, of course, also has the option of private health insurance. People overwhelmingly don't use it, with only about 10% of the population going for it.

41 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

Your article says that German healthcare is pretty great and on par with the rest of Europe, but somewhat uneconomical compared to some other EU countries. Compared to the US "system" it's practically free and massively superior in quality.

The German system, of course, also has the option of private health insurance. People overwhelmingly don't use it, with only about 10% of the population going for it.

You know we could have excellent health care for a lot cheaper. But you are afraid Drs would kill you with out regulation. Of course they kill you now with regulation. So i am not sure what the regulations do aside from make health care expensive. They certainly dont prevent fatal mistakes. Like leaving tools inside patients.

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

Having worked with government people I know that that is not what actually happens. What tends to happen is employees do the bare minimum they can get away with. Which tends to be a pretty small amount because they are virtually unfirable. Also they tend to act in a way that gets them the most money. They also suffer no consequences when they make bad decisions.

Total bullcrap. I can tell you that the doctors and nurses working for the Department of Defense alongside me did far more than the bare minimum to keep the soldiers in our care alive. Don't believe we couldn't be fired or otherwise censured for bad decisions; practice acts don't care who you work for, just where you practice/are licensed to practice. As for the most money, that's crap too--experienced civilian healthcare workers employed by the DoD can make more money under private employers (and don't have to fear shutdowns).