So currently trying to look into a few different list for F/O. The points I have really allow me to flex a bit and tool the ships a bit differently. Admittedly this is a really nice spot to be in.

So the conundrum revolves around Phasma who has admittedly been an absolute rock in the few matches I have gotten in. 4 matches and only 1 shield was taken off.

So my current list Pairs Phasma with 4 Omega SF’s w/ Fanatical. However for the same points I could just drop down to Zeta’s with Optics. The Initiative hasn’t made a huge difference to date but it certainly could. Either way the List comes out to the same 198.

Additionally the list could drop to 4 ships but add Gunners to the non Phasma SF’s. Giving the 3 Dice attacks a bit more punch up though a bit less overall health and fewer friends for Phasma. Though how rare people are really trying to shoot her it may not make a huge difference.

Then there is the debate of Proud Tradition vs Fanatical. This would be more for Phasma specifically. Currently she has Fanatical herself but upgrading to something else really seems appealing. Question is which is actually he better option to use. If Phasma isn’t being shot at or hardly taking damage Fanatical is doing nothing for me and Proud Tradition seems a better option though I could easily just give her Optics as well.

Optics at low initiative isn’t that great. Will you hold onto a focus long enough to possibly use it. Something like passive sensors is better as it gives mods offensively and defensively, even if it’s only a calculate. Plus it saves you a few points to add something else if you wish

22 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Optics at low initiative isn’t that great. Will you hold onto a focus long enough to possibly use it. Something like passive sensors is better as it gives mods offensively and defensively, even if it’s only a calculate. Plus it saves you a few points to add something else if you wish

Optics is better at low initiative, normally people will try to focus down one ship so having AO + Focus on the others guarantee you using the focus (unless you roll natties) and knowing that you won't need it for defence. In FO the only high I ship I would use AO on is Kylo, due to having force.

1 hour ago, Deffly said:

Optics is better at low initiative, normally people will try to focus down one ship so having AO + Focus on the others guarantee you using the focus (unless you roll natties) and knowing that you won't need it for defence. In FO the only high I ship I would use AO on is Kylo, due to having force.

From experience, Fanatical Optics Blackout is great.
Each to their own in opinion on low initiative optics. You are either getting arc dodged or fired at first.
I understand your reasoning, but like math wingers, averages never are and thinking you will always get to shoot with low initiative ships is not always the case.

1 hour ago, Archangelspiv said:

Optics at low initiative isn’t that great. Will you hold onto a focus long enough to possibly use it. Something like passive sensors is better as it gives mods offensively and defensively, even if it’s only a calculate. Plus it saves you a few points to add something else if you wish

I'm not sure I understand your point. It's true that you may need to spend your focus on defense and thus not get to use AO. However, if you triggered passive sensors, then you won't have any mods for defense. The optics player could also choose to save their focus for offense if they weren't concerned about the damage coming through. Meanwhile, to the point @Deffly made, you should still have 3 ships with focus who can get good mods.

9 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Fanatical Optics Blackout is great.

I'm in complete agreement with you here.

8 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

From experience, Fanatical Optics Blackout is great.
Each to their own in opinion on low initiative optics. You are either getting arc dodged or fired at first.
I understand your reasoning, but like math wingers, averages never are and thinking you will always get to shoot with low initiative ships is not always the case.

Hence responses as such are why I am bringing up the topic overall. Being someone who often flies low/lower initiative ships I tend to make it hard for opponents to arc dodge me. SF’s have fewer blind spots so I can see optics being more beneficial than on other ships.

the issue also can be reduced incoming damage in being allowed to evade once shields are down vs just focus and hoping I have a use for it.

I'm a big fan of Advanced Optics on generic SFs - it makes their two dice attacks remarkably consistent, and the double arcs gives them great time on target and makes them harder to arc dodge than most low Initiative ships.

As other people have said above, Optics on mass is really efficient on low Initiative ships. You're only likely to spend your focus defensively on one ship unless your opponent is splitting their fire (which is probably a win for you anyway), which leaves your ships firing last free to spend their focus to maximum effect.

In general I like Advanced Optics more than Fanatical on the SF. Don't get me wrong, Fanatical is a fantastic upgrade, but the SF has a poor shield to hull ratio to get the most benefit from it.

5 hours ago, Jarval said:

I'm a big fan of Advanced Optics on generic SFs - it makes their two dice attacks remarkably consistent, and the double arcs gives them great time on target and makes them harder to arc dodge than most low Initiative ships.

As other people have said above, Optics on mass is really efficient on low Initiative ships. You're only likely to spend your focus defensively on one ship unless your opponent is splitting their fire (which is probably a win for you anyway), which leaves your ships firing last free to spend their focus to maximum effect.

In general I like Advanced Optics more than Fanatical on the SF. Don't get me wrong, Fanatical is a fantastic upgrade, but the SF has a poor shield to hull ratio to get the most benefit from it.

I agree with Advanced Optics on low Init pilots. I have traditionally used them on regular Tie Fighter Epsilon Cadets at Init 1. Use the Focus for defense if you need to, but if you aren't being shot at, you can either use the Focus for modding your dice to hits....or changing a blank to a hit. How often do you fire and get a Hit and a Blank? Too often for me.

In fact, I think it works better for the First Order Tie Fighters as you can get more ships. More ships means more ships with Focus and Adv Optics. It means more ships that are not shot at and will have their Focus to translate the attack into a hit. 29 pts for each ship is pretty cheap. Even if you just put 3 of them in a list and a bunch of better ships, you can do a lot with them.

I just checked the probability calculator for 2 attack dice with a Focus and Adv Optics and you get: 0% of zero hits; 18.7% of 1 hit; 81.2% of 2 hits . That's pretty impressive for a 29 pt ship. It also gives a lot of ships to Phasma to bounce damage to.

10 hours ago, Ronu said:

So currently trying to look into a few different list for F/O. The points I have really allow me to flex a bit and tool the ships a bit differently. Admittedly this is a really nice spot to be in.

So the conundrum revolves around Phasma who has admittedly been an absolute rock in the few matches I have gotten in. 4 matches and only 1 shield was taken off.

So my current list Pairs Phasma with 4 Omega SF’s w/ Fanatical. However for the same points I could just drop down to Zeta’s with Optics. The Initiative hasn’t made a huge difference to date but it certainly could. Either way the List comes out to the same 198.

Additionally the list could drop to 4 ships but add Gunners to the non Phasma SF’s. Giving the 3 Dice attacks a bit more punch up though a bit less overall health and fewer friends for Phasma. Though how rare people are really trying to shoot her it may not make a huge difference.

Then there is the debate of Proud Tradition vs Fanatical. This would be more for Phasma specifically. Currently she has Fanatical herself but upgrading to something else really seems appealing. Question is which is actually he better option to use. If Phasma isn’t being shot at or hardly taking damage Fanatical is doing nothing for me and Proud Tradition seems a better option though I could easily just give her Optics as well.

Personally, I prefer Optics Zetas to Fanatical Omegas. With the shield-ratio on Omegas, I'd rather just have Optics. It's just so consistent. Both in terms of dice, but in terms of working from the start of the game to the end. When it works, Fanatical is back-loaded, and I don't think back-loading damage is great for a semi-swarm list.

In my experience, I haven't had a problem with Optics on low-init TIE/sf. Having rear guns gives you a lot more options for flying them, makes them harder to arc dodge. With weight of numbers, the "if they spend their focus on defense they have weak guns" issue hasn't been substantial to me. Besides, Fanatical has a similar problem. An opponent often won't put a tonne of damage into one of these until they can kill it, and TIE/sf aren't that resistant to concentrated fire. Fanatical often just doesn't work on an Omega.

Fanatical/FCS Omegas have an appeal, but that's a whole different price point, so not within the scope of this list.

//

Proud Tradition seems like something more for TIE/fo. To me, TIE/sf don't need to use red moves nearly so often (they still do sometimes), so the benefit is small. They're also a bit less resilient to the downside of red focus actions if flipped, since their blues aren't quite as good. I wouldn't go for it on Phasma, though. If she's there partly as an endgame piece, that makes it really tempting for an opponent to flip it, and a red focus action is going to be mighty inconvenient for a late-game ship.

I think I'd just give Phasma Optics instead of a Talent. Folks seem to think Optics is only for 2-red ships. It actually adds more to a 3-red ship in terms of hits added per attack than it does to a 2-red ship. The focus/blank combo will show up more often, which is annoying, but it's still mathematically a solid benefit. It's almost like having Outmaneuver from any position.

//

Gunners are probably fine. Maybe a hair worse, since having the extra health of more bodies is nice, but not that much worse.

@Ronu what is your current phasma build?

When I look at your list I'm not sure why I need to kill phasma first. If I can get 2 damage through I'd rather put 2 damage onto one omega than 1 on phasma and 1 on an omega.

I think if you mix in some TIE/FO's it might help you maximize phasma. She becomes a more appealing target if she easier to damage than her wing mates. I would run her with two omega aces with fantatical and then flank with your other ships.

TIE/sf Fighter - •Captain Phasma - 49
•Captain Phasma - Scyre Survivor (39)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

TIE/fo Fighter - Omega Squadron Ace - 30
Omega Squadron Ace - (28)
Fanatical (2)

TIE/fo Fighter - Omega Squadron Ace - 30
Omega Squadron Ace - (28)
Fanatical (2)

TIE/sf Fighter - •“Backdraft” - 45
•“Backdraft” - Fiery Fanatic (39)
Fanatical (2)
Advanced Optics (4)

TIE/sf Fighter - Omega Squadron Expert - 40
Omega Squadron Expert - (34)
Fanatical (2)
Advanced Optics (4)

Total: 194/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

1 hour ago, reqent said:

@Ronu what is your current phasma build?

When I look at your list I'm not sure why I need to kill phasma first. If I can get 2 damage through I'd rather put 2 damage onto one omega than 1 on phasma and 1 on an omega.

Here’s the current iteration;

TIE/sf Fighter - Omega Squadron Expert - 36
Omega Squadron Expert - (34)
Fanatical (2)

TIE/sf Fighter - Omega Squadron Expert - 36
Omega Squadron Expert - (34)
Fanatical (2)

TIE/sf Fighter - Omega Squadron Expert - 36
Omega Squadron Expert - (34)
Fanatical (2)

TIE/sf Fighter - Omega Squadron Expert - 36
Omega Squadron Expert - (34)
Fanatical (2)

TIE/sf Fighter - •Captain Phasma - 54
•Captain Phasma - Scyre Survivor (39)
Fanatical (2)
Angled Deflectors (3)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

Total: 198/200

View in the X-Wing Squad Builder

So at 5 health and the only ship that has 3 attack dice or the ability to double tap she looks the more appealing target at least in theory.

Also if I was going to drop SF’s for F/O’s I’m probably going directly for Epsilon’s. Simply put I’m going to have more bodies for Phasma to use and arcs to try and dodge. Also gives me more and better options.

I played the following recently and it worked well:

- Major Vonreg (Daredevil)
- Captain Phasma (Fanatical, Special Forces Gunner)
- Omega Squadron Ace (Fanatical)
- Omega Squadron Ace (Fanatical)
- Omega Squadron Ace (Fanatical)
200 points

38 minutes ago, Ronu said:

TIE/sf Fighter - •Captain Phasma - 54
•Captain Phasma - Scyre Survivor (39)
Fanatical (2)
Angled Deflectors (3)
Special Forces Gunner (10)

I can see why she isn't taking damage. Is she dealing a lot of damage or do you reinforce her?

If I was your opponent I would save her for last. I would consider trading fanatical and angled deflectors for mag pulse missiles.

I like @admat 's list because it makes sense to shoot phasma as your going to get damage through even if it activates the TIE/fo's.

That being said if your winning ignore me. She is definitely a tank.

@reqent here is her battle reports.

I haven’t been using the reinforce a lot but the few times I have either caused an opponent to take a far less optimal shot or Phasma was just able to tank everything.

Offensively she’s decent enough. Ironically enough now that I think about it. A lot of counter defense play against Phasma. Saving tokens for return shots rather than spending and attempting force damage through....

12 hours ago, Deffly said:

Optics is better at low initiative

I've also found this on the baby A-Wings, I like being able to spend my token with good information, sometimes on Tallie I don't want to risk spending for Optics in case she needs it for defense, allowing my opponent to shoot somebody else and kind of make me waste that token/upgrade.

12 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

From experience, Fanatical Optics Blackout is great.
Each to their own in opinion on low initiative optics. You are either getting arc dodged or fired at first.
I understand your reasoning, but like math wingers, averages never are and thinking you will always get to shoot with low initiative ships is not always the case.

@Smikies02 I finished 23rd in a 255 person event using Optics Kylo, fanatical optics Blackout and fanatical optics scorch. I hated scorch in every game, but I managed to make him work.
It looks like my opinion isn’t popular but I am sticking to it regarding low initiative pilots and Optics. Especially if they can take sensors.
I am interested in people’s opinions that reacted to my opinion as why they think it’s wrong. Just curious is all, my opinion has been formed by my experience, which has told me that optics isn’t good on low initiatives.

4 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

It looks like my opinion isn’t popular but I am sticking to it regarding low initiative pilots and Optics. Especially if they can take sensors.
I am interested in people’s opinions that reacted to my opinion as why they think it’s wrong. Just curious is all, my opinion has been formed by my experience, which has told me that optics isn’t good on low initiatives.

I don't have math to back me up or anything, but Low initiative Advanced optics are pretty much my bread and butter. I'm not much on piling on upgrades, but Advanced optics generally makes me happy I have it. My two main factions are 1. First Order, and 2. Resistance. -- because of advanced optics.

Opponents will gripe on how consistent the damage is from them.

4 minutes ago, Hobbyist said:

I don't have math to back me up or anything, but Low initiative Advanced optics are pretty much my bread and butter. I'm not much on piling on upgrades, but Advanced optics generally makes me happy I have it. My two main factions are 1. First Order, and 2. Resistance. -- because of advanced optics.

Opponents will gripe on how consistent the damage is from them.

Cheers @Hobbyist , this is what I was getting at. Your experience has shown it to be a good fit, mine has been the opposite. My main factions are Imperial and FO, I will be flying FO at this year’s Australian SoS too. There will possibly be a tonne of Fenn/Bobas, but I hope not.
I think maybe it’s because I fly higher initiative ships that have never had an issue with generics. You might get **** at by one generic, but you can generally dodge more than a few arcs.

18 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I am interested in people’s opinions that reacted to my opinion as why they think it’s wrong. Just curious is all, my opinion has been formed by my experience, which has told me that optics isn’t good on low initiatives.

passive sensor gives even less that adv. optic in defense. If you are getting shot by higher ps, you don't even have a token to defend yourself with, and will probably die before even getting a chance to return fire. Where with adv. optic, you take a focus token, and if need be you spend it on defense, possibly letting you survive and fire back. And if you didn't need to use the focus on defense, you can use it on offense almost all the time.
Also, if you have low ps, you usually bring a larger number of ships. Adv. optic is even better there, letting the ship that takes the brunt of the attack use the focus, and the rest all get to use focus on offense.
Even better, you can actually link focus for certain ship like the silencer and the Resistance A-wing, letting you focus then boost/broll into range. Focus is a safe bet when you are not sure how the opponent will move and if you'll get arcdodged, as opposed to passive sensor, were if you did this, then get arcdodged, you are stuck with now mod and a useless action.

Adv. optic is just so much better than passive on a low PS, unless you specifically want to launch ordnance.

@Archangelspiv Good luck at the SoS! I take it you're flying the blackout you've posted above? I fly him most out of the silencers, I don't like spending the force tax for kylo, (and his ability is boring)

44 minutes ago, Hobbyist said:

@Archangelspiv Good luck at the SoS! I take it you're flying the blackout you've posted above? I fly him most out of the silencers, I don't like spending the force tax for kylo, (and his ability is boring)

Cheers mate, it’s going to be either Blackout, Vonreg and Rush. Or Vonreg, Blackout and Lehuese. I much prefer Blackout too, you’re right in Kylos ability, I never used it and you pay a premium for 2 force. It came in handy a few times, but not worth the cost in the long run.

1 hour ago, Archangelspiv said:

@Smikies02 I finished 23rd in a 255 person event using Optics Kylo, fanatical optics Blackout and fanatical optics scorch. I hated scorch in every game, but I managed to make him work.
It looks like my opinion isn’t popular but I am sticking to it regarding low initiative pilots and Optics. Especially if they can take sensors.
I am interested in people’s opinions that reacted to my opinion as why they think it’s wrong. Just curious is all, my opinion has been formed by my experience, which has told me that optics isn’t good on low initiatives.

Nice finish!

I like Fanatical/Optics BO, although I'm shocked you spend focus on offense if you're getting shot at. I assume he had to be your flanker as it's hard to flank with all of your ships, so eventually your opponents will get shot.

As for my confused react:

AO on low initiative gives you perfect information on using the focus. So you spend the focus on defense if you can, preserving your points, otherwise you're almost guaranteed to be able to use that focus action on offense. If you spend the focus on offense with a higher initiative ship, you're going to end up rolling eyeballs on defense, losing points/a ship. And vs skilled opponents, they'll get shots on you even if you move after them.

I'm also a strong proponent that people should learn to fly lower initiative ships. Keep wide arcs for better chance of shots. Block. Predict your opponent.

1 minute ago, Smikies02 said:

Nice finish!

I like Fanatical/Optics BO, although I'm shocked you spend focus on offense if you're getting shot at. I assume he had to be your flanker as it's hard to flank with all of your ships, so eventually your opponents will get shot.

As for my confused react:

AO on low initiative gives you perfect information on using the focus. So you spend the focus on defense if you can, preserving your points, otherwise you're almost guaranteed to be able to use that focus action on offense. If you spend the focus on offense with a higher initiative ship, you're going to end up rolling eyeballs on defense, losing points/a ship. And vs skilled opponents, they'll get shots on you even if you move after them.

I'm also a strong proponent that people should learn to fly lower initiative ships. Keep wide arcs for better chance of shots. Block. Predict your opponent.

The reason I hated on Scorch so much was that I wanted to use all my ships as bait. Which ever ship they went for I disengaged with and tried to commit with the other two. Without boost it required a different way to engage, which after 6 games did my head in.
I agree with your low generic idea too. I would like to go to a generic only tournament, could be a bit of fun for a LGS to run.

1 hour ago, Archangelspiv said:

I am interested in people’s opinions that reacted to my opinion as why they think it’s wrong. Just curious is all, my opinion has been formed by my experience, which has told me that optics isn’t good on low initiatives.

I don’t think anyone is saying you’re wrong. Certainly a different opinion regarding on the use of Optics.

i am personally not a fan of optics at least not without ordnance. I have a hard time seeing the Value. The S/F’s are durable enough to take a punch helping survivability with a Focus is a better overall option especially in my list. Where I am wanting as much health sustained to spread and use with Phasma

2 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

The reason I hated on Scorch so much was that I wanted to use all my ships as bait. Which ever ship they went for I disengaged with and tried to commit with the other two. Without boost it required a different way to engage, which after 6 games did my head in.
I agree with your low generic idea too. I would like to go to a generic only tournament, could be a bit of fun for a LGS to run.

I've run tons of Scorch and absolutely love him as bait. I threaten to joust/flank with him and if I feel my opponent is coming after him, I dial a 1 hard and barrel roll towards my own board edge. I can then either run across my board edge or turn back in, depending on whether my opponent is advertising that they are coming for Scorch or not. Worst case is my opponent Jousts Scorch when I predicted otherwise. In That scenario, I'm still alright because my opponent is pointing their whole list at 35 points of mine (I like just Fanatical). Not to mention that Scorch has a decent chance to survive most jousts.