@twincast That's part of the reason I generally prefer skirmish games these days. With fewer models, I can spend more time customizing, and it takes less time to paint up the "army."

6 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I remember when they changed the packaging on Imperial guard from 20 models to 10, and "reduced" the price from $30 to $20... (or something like that).

It went from $35 for 20 to $25 for 10. And then slowly eked it up to $35 for 10... bearing it mind that box of 20 debuted at $25, Same sprue, changing prices. It's on GW's webstore, right now. And lest we forget, when it debuted at 20 guys for $25, it was replacing a box of 10 metal for $31.99... And the metal squad had a heavy weapon, the new plastics don't.

It was like this awesome deal when it came out, then, it became horribly overpriced. But enough of this tangent.

13 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Since Asmodee's current modus operandi seems to be to cut costs while increasing profits (at least in the short term), a price change at the same time as a change in material makes sense from a business perspective (perceived change in value, so who knows. It could be due to some increased costs, it could be simply they figure they can convince the customers to pay a new price. The only people who know for sure aren't talking.

Unlike GW, I think FFG will back down if we don't get on board.

Ok back the tangent, one last plug for Oldhammer Fantasy Battles. I'm painting a new old army for a 5th edition (Middlehammer?) campaign with an old friend. My Bretonnians use only 37 models for my initial 1,000 point collection. I plan on expanding the collection to around 2,200 points (from which to comfortably draft 2,000 point armies) at 76 models.

I think you can play 1,500 point games of 5th edition Chaos Warriors with like... 22 infantry figures. Seriously.

4 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Unlike GW, I think FFG will back down if we don't get on board.

Ok back the tangent, one last plug for Oldhammer Fantasy Battles. I'm painting a new old army for a 5th edition (Middlehammer?) campaign with an old friend. My Bretonnians use only 37 models for my initial 1,000 point collection. I plan on expanding the collection to around 2,200 points (from which to comfortably draft 2,000 point armies) at 76 models.

I think you can play 1,500 point games of 5th edition Chaos Warriors with like... 22 infantry figures. Seriously.

More likely the game would just become “complete”. If it’s not profitable for them at a certain level they’ll just stop supporting it.

I just hope that the game doesn’t increase its price any further, especially with the now abysmal return policy and frequent delays. Already getting sick of delays and I just made the jump in.

7 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

More likely the game would just become “complete”. If it’s not profitable for them at a certain level they’ll just stop supporting it.

*Pours one out for Imperial Assault*

4 hours ago, 54NCH32 said:

*Pours one out for Imperial Assault*

This game wasn't completed imo. Skirmish portion of the game (which could have been their meal ticket) was never supported or given a chance imo either

(mini - rant over FFG's best game ever)

16 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@twincast That's part of the reason I generally prefer skirmish games these days. With fewer models, I can spend more time customizing, and it takes less time to paint up the "army."

I do enjoy the skirmish game quite a bit myself. For some reason it takes half the time to play for me and my son, so we can easily whip out 2 different games with different armies now on a Saturday afternoon

19 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

This game wasn't completed imo. Skirmish portion of the game (which could have been their meal ticket) was never supported or given a chance imo either

(mini - rant over FFG's best game ever)

Oh for sure, I hated that they just stamped it with "DONE". I was mostly on board for the campaigns, but is a shame they'll be no more for it (I got my fingers crossed for more app stuff, but who knows).

On 2/28/2020 at 4:27 AM, jocke01 said:

The price is of course something that can deter new players, but the price is both for the improved plastic and quality as well as the boxes will have to be bigger to fit all the sprues.

I mean, ofc as a customer I want to have low prices, but the quality increase of operative Vader/Luke compared to core set ones are pretty big.

I don't know about what the Operative sprues are going to look like(Luke and Vader operatives are still PVC, right?), but as far as the squad sprues go, they're not going to need larger boxes. Picked up some B2's and Phase II clones and they honestly could've cut the size of those boxes by half and the sprues still would've fit. The Grievous sprue is bigger, but my guess is that's because they never intended it to go anywhere but the core set, plus it has a lot of options. Something like Jyn Erso could easily be done in a small sprue that would fit the existing operative box just fine.

The price increase does reflect the new material and development costs. Injection molds are expensive as compared to other types, and even that cost fluctuates due to a *lot* of different factors. Some injection molds have to be made of hardened tool steel, while others don't. They can also vary in expense based upon how many units a manufacturer wants to be able to produce at one time, as well as over time. They've come down in price, but you're still talking probably $10,000-$15,000 for a mold on average. While companies like FFG are big fish, they're in an incredibly small pond as compared to other industries. Even the 800 lb. Gee Dub gorilla doesn't create injection molds for Forge World stuff, for example. I'd hate to see what they'd charge if they did.

10 hours ago, buckero0 said:

This game wasn't completed imo. Skirmish portion of the game (which could have been their meal ticket) was never supported or given a chance imo either

I'll 100% agree it's unfortunate, because it was a fantastic game concept. Unfortunately it was plagued with horrible balance issues from the very start and they never got better. Campaign worked out more or less, but Skirmish was always broken and the meta was typically solved in a week or two. Don't get me wrong, I totally loved the gameplay and mechanics, but there were so many F-tier and S-tier units that it's absolutely disgusting.

Hoping they do a re-work of the game at some point, complete with new sculpts (they really haven't aged well) and maybe a conversion kit for those of us who have already invested heavily.

3 hours ago, mreindl said:

They've come down in price, but you're still talking probably $10,000-$15,000 for a mold on average. While companies like FFG are big fish, they're in an incredibly small pond as compared to other industries. Even the 800 lb. Gee Dub gorilla doesn't create injection molds for Forge World stuff, for example. I'd hate to see what they'd charge if they did.

The math doesn't add up. Maybe an extra buck but not 5 or 10. Think about it. If the mold costs an extra 10k up front, and you charge an extra $10, your first thousand units covers the mold. Call it two thousand units after taxes. But you usually only make injection molds of things you want to make a hundred thousand of. So you're hypothetically increasing prices by $500,000 to $100,000 to make back $10,000 to $15,000 in increased costs. Actually less than 10 to 15k, once you subtract the cost of the soft plastic or metal mold they woulda had to make before anyway.

Upping the price by $5 or $10 is about "perceived value adds". And I don't perceive that much added value.

If I was wrong, much smaller companies would be charging a lot more for hard plastic models. Sure they don't have to pay a licensing fee, but if $10k upfront capital for a mold was driving these kind of percentage increases to MSRP, there's no way Perry or Fireforge could sell what they do, for the prices they do it at.

To put it another way, keeping 10 staff around for a week at minimum wage costs $4k before taxes and benefits. If recouping an extra $10-15 thousand in a product's development was THAT big of a deal, that they had to charge an extra $5 per unit times 100, ie $500k to get back $15k. these companies (FFG, GW) would be one rainy day away from bankruptcy. Cause they must be borrowing money at truly ruinous rates. Remember, that hypothetical $500k to recoup $15k is JUST about the mold costs going up, they're already making other money for the original $20 or $30 per unit. GW could sell their Space Marine heroes at a profit for $5 if they wanted to, but they'd RATHER sell you one for $35, and people pay it, so that's what they charge. Likewise, they could remain profitable if they'd REDUCE the price of those unchanged guardsmen or genestealers or whatever over time as they recoup the cost of the mold, the cost of hiring the sculptor, etc. But people still buy the models if they raise prices (and faster than inflation, at that), so, that's what they do. If you think it's worth it then by all means buy it, but don't kid yourself into thinking the hobby would go belly up if they had to charge less.

I will happily drop ABSURD amounts of money on REALLY DUMB STUFF if I like it. But I don't make up excuses about what it costs the manufacturer to make it. For example. I'll spend $30 on a vintage plastic toy dinosaur that probably cost the seller like $1 if they kept their eyes open at a garage sale. It's worth it to me to fill a gap in my collection. But I still know it's crazy.

Edit: I am not trying to be a jerk to @mreindl but over the years I've gotten really tired of the argument that, for less than the cost of a car or new water heater, profitable gaming companies are painted into a financial corner.

@TauntaunScout It's a fairly common pricing tactic though. You charge a high price initially to quickly recoup the extra costs (say, just from the initial run), then don't ever bring the prices down since people are now used to paying that higher price.

The smaller companies are often gambling on being able to sell enough of the models to recoup the costs in a longer period of time, or using profits from non-plastic kits to help defray the costs. Fireforge has their resin characters and shields, Perry has their metal lines. Their miniatures aren't tied to a single game, unlike with Legion (arguably), so they can gamble a bit more on selling to people who play any number of historical games that suit their products. Oldhammer, Saga, Bolt Action, Chain of Command, and many other games that don't have model restrictions on tournaments for one reason or another are all potential customers, as opposed to just people who play Legion.

I've seen smaller companies use kickstarter to help defray the costs of setup, or ensure there would be enough demand to justify the expense of setting up production. Wargames Atlantic for instance uses the tactic of polls, figuring out what customers want before even starting to design the models. Which is why most of the kits fill a gap in the market, such as plastic halflings, and relatively simple yet sturdy plastic skeletons.

We also do not know for a fact that the switch to hard plastic had anything to do with the price increase, (unless Asmodee/FFG has made an announcement I missed), they could just be using this as an opportunity to change the prices as part of their "cut costs, increase profits" initiatives, since consumers would blame the new material on the price change. The hard plastic is an obvious suspect, and an easy scapegoat.

3 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

The math doesn't add up. Maybe an extra buck but not 5 or 10. Think about it. If the mold costs an extra 10k up front, and you charge an extra $10, your first thousand units covers the mold. Call it two thousand units after taxes. But you usually only make injection molds of things you want to make a hundred thousand of. So you're hypothetically increasing prices by $500,000 to $100,000 to make back $10,000 to $15,000 in increased costs. Actually less than 10 to 15k, once you subtract the cost of the soft plastic or metal mold they woulda had to make before anyway.

Upping the price by $5 or $10 is about "perceived value adds". And I don't perceive that much added value.

If I was wrong, much smaller companies would be charging a lot more for hard plastic models. Sure they don't have to pay a licensing fee, but if $10k upfront capital for a mold was driving these kind of percentage increases to MSRP, there's no way Perry or Fireforge could sell what they do, for the prices they do it at.

To put it another way, keeping 10 staff around for a week at minimum wage costs $4k before taxes and benefits. If recouping an extra $10-15 thousand in a product's development was THAT big of a deal, that they had to charge an extra $5 per unit times 100, ie $500k to get back $15k. these companies (FFG, GW) would be one rainy day away from bankruptcy. Cause they must be borrowing money at truly ruinous rates. Remember, that hypothetical $500k to recoup $15k is JUST about the mold costs going up, they're already making other money for the original $20 or $30 per unit. GW could sell their Space Marine heroes at a profit for $5 if they wanted to, but they'd RATHER sell you one for $35, and people pay it, so that's what they charge. Likewise, they could remain profitable if they'd REDUCE the price of those unchanged guardsmen or genestealers or whatever over time as they recoup the cost of the mold, the cost of hiring the sculptor, etc. But people still buy the models if they raise prices (and faster than inflation, at that), so, that's what they do. If you think it's worth it then by all means buy it, but don't kid yourself into thinking the hobby would go belly up if they had to charge less.

I will happily drop ABSURD amounts of money on REALLY DUMB STUFF if I like it. But I don't make up excuses about what it costs the manufacturer to make it. For example. I'll spend $30 on a vintage plastic toy dinosaur that probably cost the seller like $1 if they kept their eyes open at a garage sale. It's worth it to me to fill a gap in my collection. But I still know it's crazy.

Edit: I am not trying to be a jerk to @mreindl but over the years I've gotten really tired of the argument that, for less than the cost of a car or new water heater, profitable gaming companies are painted into a financial corner.

I didn’t think you were being a jerk, until I realized you were responding to me. :).

I wasn’t suggesting that they’ve been painted into a corner, but it is important to remember that at the end of the day, the gaming community is a lot smaller than the wonders of the interwebz make it seem. It’s still a fairly niche market, which is divided among a number of different companies to boot.

The profit isn’t there to the same extent as it is for other industries because of that. I’d love to see actual unit sales numbers, as I’m fairly certain that FFG has never produced 100,000 of anything, except possibly dice or card sleeves.

You’re also arguing from the standpoint of perceived value, which I agree is a big factor. It’s not worth it to you, but it clearly is for other people; otherwise the Perry’s and Mantic would be at the top of the heap, and GW would be a memory.

What FFG has really done is to bring their figures more in line with what GW does charge per model. I wasn’t defending the practice, but at the end o& the day, we are talking about luxury products which are someone else’s plastic dinosaur.

At this point, many companies, most notably GW but others as well, are basically charging extra for membership to the tribe. Warhammer would play just fine with orcs or skeletons from any company, but then you aren't part of the tribe.

8 hours ago, mreindl said:

What FFG has really done is to bring their figures more in line with what GW does charge per model.

Luckily Legion only uses about 30 models instead of about 100 models! The price increases at GW would be a lot easier to swallow if I wasn't told I needed about 15% more models every edition.

6 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Luckily Legion only uses about 30 models instead of about 100 models! The price increases at GW would be a lot easier to swallow if I wasn't told I needed about 15% more models every edition.

Unfortunately with FFG you some times have to buy 7 man units to get 2 dudes... you never use every model included in the box. To get to those 30 dudes you might have to buy 50.

3 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Unfortunately with FFG you some times have to buy 7 man units to get 2 dudes... you never use every model included in the box. To get to those 30 dudes you might have to buy 50.

One more reason not to chase meta at the end of the rainbow.

Also keep in mind, that all of these companies are dealing with unclear futures when it comes to tariffs. Companies are not just going to eat those costs indefinitely. If FFG has reservations about tariffs, it would make sense to roll a price increase into the transition time to a new material. Also, as someone who has played other miniature games for years, I was shocked by the low cost of Legion. The typical player can get a full size tournament army for roughly $200.00 which is certainly not the norm for a game with this number of minis (40K, AoS, Warmahordes). Can you expand and own multiples of everything, sure, but that is not the standard for a miniature game.

22 minutes ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Unfortunately with FFG you some times have to buy 7 man units to get 2 dudes... you never use every model included in the box. To get to those 30 dudes you might have to buy 50.

That is only one specific instance (the strike teams), and is in manys ways preferable to having to buy 2-4 different boxes to be able to field any single unit because the weapons options aren't included in the same box. Which has arguably changed with the "upgrade" boxes, but none of those heavy weapons seem enough better to make them "must buys".

15 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

That is only one specific instance (the strike teams), and is in manys ways preferable to having to buy 2-4 different boxes to be able to field any single unit because the weapons options aren't included in the same box. Which has arguably changed with the "upgrade" boxes, but none of those heavy weapons seem enough better to make them "must buys".

It’s not just the strike teams... medical droids, new heavy weapons, old heavy weapons, extra troopers in the units boxes. All of those things come with 2 to 3 extra dudes you might not need. My list I’m playing in a tournament this month has 21 dudes I don’t use that come with the stuff I needed, and I’m not even playing rebels.

Just now, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

It’s not just the strike teams... medical droids, new heavy weapons, old heavy weapons, extra troopers in the units boxes. All of those things come with 2 to 3 extra dudes you might not need. My list I’m playing in a tournament this month has 21 dudes I don’t use that come with the stuff I needed, and I’m not even playing rebels.

Ah, I see what you mean now. The specialists/upgrade did change things, although you can make perfectly competitive lists using just single unit boxes in general.

2 hours ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

It’s not just the strike teams... medical droids, new heavy weapons, old heavy weapons, extra troopers in the units boxes. All of those things come with 2 to 3 extra dudes you might not need. My list I’m playing in a tournament this month has 21 dudes I don’t use that come with the stuff I needed, and I’m not even playing rebels.

So the generic leader and the astromech droids are garbage that no one would ever use? The comms guy I get, but the others are incredibly useful.

11 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

So the generic leader and the astromech droids are garbage that no one would ever use? The comms guy I get, but the others are incredibly useful.

Ummm other way around dude... the coms guy is useful, the generic commander, especially for imps, is not very useful.

1 minute ago, NeverTellMeTheOdds said:

Ummm other way around dude... the coms guy is useful, the generic guy, especially for imps, is not too useful.

Really? I've seen a few people run the generic officers either as a cheaper Veers, or embedded in a Snowtrooper unit for the extra morale.

4 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Really? I've seen a few people run the generic officers either as a cheaper Veers, or embedded in a Snowtrooper unit for the extra morale.

Coms is useful in shores and vets. I can’t ever see taking the generic imp officer over Veers.